Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

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sun
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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#21 Post by sun » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:41 pm

Grindel wrote:So, wizards animating players to endless vendettas brings us better roleplay? -- am I missing something here?
The guild leaders have much power in the sense that they set an example for the rest of the MUD. One rotten guild leader and you have an entirely rotten guild.
Grindel wrote:I see it this way: Guild hopping happens, and why not. When you look at veteran players you will not find a single one that did not do it.
I do not think that makes it any better. It is more like a long history of proof that something should be done about it. I do not mind at all that it happens, but the guy who does it should live with the consequences - and that is much more rare.
Grindel wrote:There are systems in the game that prevent hopping, such as the dark-elf-ritual.
I do not think that is a guild-specific ritual.. but in any case, I am not sure what systems you are talking about? Can you mention one more that actually made a character suffer? The reason it even works in for example the Crusaders guild is because some specific people Made It Happen (TM). Not long ago, they were running around with their enemies, evil guys etc and did not even care about it. No systems in the world are going to help if players just ignore them.
Grindel wrote:If on the other hand guilds allow members to leave, then it is just fine to do so. Consequences of this are played just as well, if you leave the crusaders, you _will_ have a hard life afterwards. If some other guild handles this differently, where's the problem?
I believe the game was designed to roleplayed and if the system is going to work, at some places people need to be able to take the uncomfortable decision. But it is always the same old, "he is a friend of mine". It's really easy to take that decision and it's really "optimal" too. But, I think that the guilds are not bus stops. Although, I could be wrong. It would be interesting to hear what our beloved admins/wizards think. What is the idea really?
Grindel wrote:Is it just me or is all this talk getting stranger every day? Every threads runs off topic quickly and ends in just the same rant about making the game more extreme. It's the same faces in every of these threads, ranting about how the game is played wrongly, and how the game and the way it is played must be change by force... Get a grip, folks.
To be honest the only thing I find "extreme" is that the admins let so much ignorance of RP pass without doing much about it while claiming to be an RP-enforced MUD. I am rather surprised that you do not see it. On the general whole though, if I may say so, things have gotten better in recent times, but it's still far away.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#22 Post by Grindel » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:12 pm

To be honest the only thing I find "extreme" is that the admins let so much ignorance of RP pass without doing much about it while claiming to be an RP-enforced MUD.
You really should relax a bit; this is a game after all, regardless how roleplay-enforced it may be.

From what you write, you are not trying to inforce roleplay, but to inforce the specific kind of roleplay you regard as the only valid one.
I don't think the wizard's job is to watch over every move a player makes, ready to whack him or her her on the head (or push guild leaders to do so) when his roleplay does not meet some (that is to say: your) standard.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#23 Post by Herst » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:08 pm

I think the people posting on the threads, are the ones that suffer from it the most and are sick of witnessing complete rubbish in some cases.

In the last 2 months, one guild has lost 4 members because they teamed with enemies of the guild. Some of them were traitors and the others were some that any member of the guild should not even tolerate their presence. When asked why they teamed with the enemies their only replies were "because he is a super nice guy" "Oh he is my friend"

I won't go into specifics but I will mention that the enemies at hand were traitors and Sathonites.

Then after those members were expelled/left, the guild had to deal with the general mud population trying to defend them. It seems 75 percent of the mud saw nothing wrong with members of a "good" guild teaming with Sathonites or cannabils, as long as the Sathonite smiled at them and greeted them. Even Evren followers were trying to defend them making such claims as "Yeah, they were smart to become Sathonites and I will still be their friends"

So no one is trying to enforce their personal types of RP onto the mud.
They are trying to enforce the basic, common fundamental mechanics that this mud was created on.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#24 Post by Olrane » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:18 pm

Yikes. Good two months to take off. I don't see how Herst, Sun, or any of the others are wrong here. I am not certain exactly what this refers to - the Rangers fiasco or something else - but it's pretty obvious that these things should not be tolerated.

There's a little wiggle room for newbies who don't want to polarize yet, as committing to one guild or faction has a huge impact on everything thenceforth. But if one is committed to a guild, faction, or ideology and is sympathizing with those on the other side, something is wrong.

The only thing I can think of as a problem is that different levels of devotion are often hard to distinguish, and often people will assume that if someone belongs to a group, he is an extreme believer in that group's ideology. It's fine IC for your character to make these assumptions, but if you're OOCly evaluating someone's actions as "bad RP", then you should be very sure to know where their allegiances really lie and how strong those ties are.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#25 Post by tessa » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:38 pm

Grindel wrote:So, wizards animating players to endless vendettas brings us better roleplay? -- am I missing something here?
Most guilds you join, you do so under the vow to join for life. And most of those guilds are religious guilds, where you vow to serve your god for life. Leaving the guild is considered not only treachery to the guild's will and the membership, but also treachery against the god. Treason is something that is handled seriously.

Guild hopping is possible, but shouldn't be without its consequences. Otherwise, we'd have people hopping from one guild to another, amassing abilities or skills from each one, until they were some Katimari ball of power. And in that case, one could ask what the point of goal-pursuiting guilds would be, or the restrictions to the number of guilds you could join.

There are some possibilities for Shaolin to handle a few things, too. If an Ex-Shaolin joins another guild, the Shaolin could ask the new guild to monitor or punish the person if they use martial arts. Also, Shaolin could ask cities to make the use of martial arts for anyone who is not a Shaolin illegal. In turn, the Shaolin could perform services for the guilds or cities in question, or aid them in general things. The important factor would be having a good relation with others, and perhaps prove themselves an asset (such as offering to help hunt outlaws, or other guilds' enemies, or defend the cities when attacked, etc).

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#26 Post by ganandorf » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:35 pm

I agree with what Sun/Tessa/Herst and others are saying.
If someone joins a guild (lets take religious guilds) there is always a vow to serve for life. You're well aware of the consequences when you join said guild. Hell its common sense, and you know the enemy list that says 'so and so Traiterous bastard' thats a dead givaway what happens to traitors.

One of the things that i think though is that the guild enemy should not be killed everytime, sometimes as it says in the fair play rules, stun them, knokck em out, torture them, leave them limbless in a secluded area, Let them roll their way to safety. This has happened to me a few times that i can think of, and tbh as long as the area isnt too extreme (try rolling from the unicorn valley to cumberly) I think its fine this way.
The times that my enemies did catch and torture/punish me, were much funner than the times that they walked in, killed me and walked out. This also happened like 2-3 times.
And after a while being killed over and over again gets kinda shitty. I know that it made me stop playing ganon for a few months

So basically all guilds SHOULD have to hunt down their enemies no bullshit by saying 'oh but he's my friend' and if the wizards have to enforce it (might be a waste of their time though) so be it. But hunting doesnt necessarily mean killing.

Edit:
Another thing i wanted to bring up is the acceptance of people into guilds. I think that guild leaders should be a bit more selective when allowing noobie characters to enter a guild. Not a personal attack or anything here but ive noticed that alot of the noobies flock to the shaolin, hell you basically become a ninja, most awesome guild in the game. And then they realize, hmm wait being a ninja is not so great to start. And either they leave the guild, and the other shao dont hunt them because they are 'new' to the world, or they jsut stop playing that character altogether because he is 'ruined. And its not just the shaos either i was just using that as an example, ive noticed it happen with the crusaders, and clerics, and almost every guild.

There is some incoherent dribble for everyone to enjoy
Also if someone already made all those points my bad

If anything was found offensive in this text, or too in characterly information. PM me and ill edit/remove
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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#27 Post by triska » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:46 am

Tessa said
Otherwise, we'd have people hopping from one guild to another, amassing abilities or skills from each one, until they were some Katimari ball of power.
I agree with this statement.
My character is not sure she ever wants to join a guild after seeing what goes on with the guilds and knowing if she joined one and found it really was not as good a life as she was expecting then it would be hard for her to survive after leaving. I am sure thats really the correct way to be since she KNOWS joining a guild is a LIFE committment.

However I do think that the guilds skills although learned and worked at if after leaving that guild the specific guild skills should be blocked from use by said person until they eventually lose the knowledge of that skill. This is as much a punnishment as dying if not more because the person then has to find a complete new way of life.

Triska sill finds it hard that although her character is considered to be a good person but because she follows Asral she is considered bad by Taniel and her friends still cannot team with her and they arent Sathonys or Lillieth which I agree she should not espect to hunt and team with. She finds it very narrow minded that their morals are similar but she may as well be as Sathony if she falls in love with a Taneil cause he will treat her in just the same way cept maybe he wont try to kill her.
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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#28 Post by tessa » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:54 am

You're more likely to get killed by one side or the other if you worship a fanatical good/evil god. No one is really compatible with Asral, but at least people don't usually hunt his followers.

But then, you could convert to Gwen and be able to hang out with tons of more people (Asralites and evils would be out of the picture though), and be rewarded for having a good aura! *converting prod*

-Tessa, who seeks to destroy Asral one conversion at a time

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#29 Post by Herst » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:48 am

tessa wrote:You're more likely to get killed by one side or the other if you worship a fanatical good/evil god. No one is really compatible with Asral, but at least people don't usually hunt his followers.

But then, you could convert to Gwen and be able to hang out with tons of more people (Asralites and evils would be out of the picture though), and be rewarded for having a good aura! *converting prod*

-Tessa, who seeks to destroy Asral one conversion at a time
Asralites Getting hunted: Rubbish. Sathonites seek to destroy you all.

Asral compatibility: Yes, no on is compatible with Asral except for Asralites. Attempting anything else is nonsense.

Gwen and Asral: I remember someone claiming to follow Gwen that was "married" to someone claiming to follow Asral. I suppose it never married that Asral and Gwen were enemies. The fact that there were "married" was considered RP enough by them.

Destroying Asral: Well, you can work on converting. I will do it other ways ;)

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#30 Post by Olrane » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:43 pm

Kind of going off on a slight tangent...replying to posts from earlier, not to the one right above.

Really, I don't think guild-hopping is an absolute evil. I think people need to examine it for what it is, what it should be and what it shouldn't be. There are times where it is absolutely appropriate for a character (and of course he/she should still probably be punished).

This is my opinion, as a player of one of those oh-so-terrible ex-Shaolin.

Guild-hopping should never be done for OOC reasons. No guilds should be joined with the intention to exploit them and their skills. If there is a choice to exploit, it is almost always due to an OOC powergaming decision - see the Skalds.

Guild-hopping is perfectly acceptable if your roleplay demands it - after all, to not leave/join a guild when your roleplay demands it is bad roleplay.

I don't mind getting too IC because I don't play Olrane anymore, but I'll try to keep it brief. His decision to join the Shaolin was not made to exploit the system. His decision to leave was not to jump right into another guild, but simply to throw off the yoke of lawfulness that kept him from fighting the Crusade and using what tactics he decided were good enough. Becoming Asadrim happened much later, and was not a reason to leave the Shaolin.

I don't doubt that there are some players/characters who do, in fact, try to exploit the system by guild hopping. But there are situations where it is not only justified but mandated by roleplay. I would rather give players the benefit of the doubt if they do guild-hop. I like dynamic characters, and there definitely shouldn't be anything hard-coded to keep players from guild-hopping.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#31 Post by tessa » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:10 pm

I don't think it should be forbidden. Tessa's gone from Lurker to Ranger to Shaolin, but it wasn't to amass skills. She had RP reasons to join each guild, and RP reasons to leave (or in the Ranger's case, get expelled).

I think it's generally agreed that people shouldn't join guild X intentionally as a stepping stone, then move on to Y which they wanted all along. However, I do feel, whether it's done through RP or premediated OOC decision, leaving a guild should have some sort of consequences. Even the Shaolin have (had?) a policy of punishing deserters.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#32 Post by luminier » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:48 pm

i can't say the same for luminier, most both his reasons for leaving each of the guilds he was in were pretty weak, and im ashamed of it. im trying to make up for it but failing miserably.

i say anything in this game is allowed as long as you roleplay it well. i think thats what was originally intended.
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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#33 Post by gojin » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:32 am

A few things:
Gwen and Asral: I remember someone claiming to follow Gwen that was "married" to someone claiming to follow Asral. I suppose it never married that Asral and Gwen were enemies. The fact that there were "married" was considered RP enough by them.
This is a good example of too much emphasis being put on religion in Geas. You are basically saying you think its poor rp for your char to care more for another char than for the god it follows? I just have to disagree. If I were an Asralite I would not think twice about getting some Gwennite tail. Is it even the popular opinion that Asral would look down on this?
Guild-hopping should never be done for OOC reasons. No guilds should be joined with the intention to exploit them and their skills. If there is a choice to exploit, it is almost always due to an OOC powergaming decision - see the Skalds.

Guild-hopping is perfectly acceptable if your roleplay demands it - after all, to not leave/join a guild when your roleplay demands it is bad roleplay.
I agree completely on both points.
I like dynamic characters, and there definitely shouldn't be anything hard-coded to keep players from guild-hopping.
Agree

PO Gojin

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#34 Post by tessa » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:46 am

gojin wrote:If I were an Asralite I would not think twice about getting some Gwennite tail. Is it even the popular opinion that Asral would look down on this?
Yes. Asral quite vocally decrees Gwen as an archnemesis and all her followers as scum. Gwen feels similar about Asral, as the things they stand for are pretty opposite. It's not really much different than Evren/Sathonys or Taniel/Lilith, except these two are forced to co-exist together in same places. Code-wise, however, it seems to be exactly the same.

But yes, Asral would smite any alleged devotee of war for sleeping with a blasphemer. In hypotheticals at least.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#35 Post by Delia » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:13 am

Tessa said
Even the Shaolin have (had?) a policy of punishing deserters.
Yes, that was pretty much before the legal system became fully integrated. Going around killing citizens just is not what it used to be...
But yes, Asral would smite any alleged devotee of war for sleeping with a blasphemer. In hypotheticals at least.
Or atleast the priests should come cracking down on the two lovebirds.
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