Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

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gojin
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Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#1 Post by gojin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:03 am

Hey all,

Beating a dead horse because I wanted to respond to a post from a different thread but did not want to take it(the thread) on a tangent.

Tessa wrote:
But most of the situations I've seen, the excuse is usually 'god xxx wants me to be evil/good, but I don't feel like adjusting what I do, so I'm just going to ignore it'. To which I then ask why they follow a god that's apparently incompatible with their roleplay. But I forgot, it's because it's what their friends do. Which brings about that other complex:
This is a point of contention with me. I believe there are more reasons to follow a god than simply because he/she is compatible with my rp(not saying that it isnt a viable and good reason). For instance some of the Geasian gods are billed as the parent gods of certain races, so why wouldnt those races follow their parent gods if they do not wish to follow the other available gods? All 'good' chars following the 'good' god and so forth leads to more race mixing/racial gods having no point. Both of which I dislike greatly.

Also, why would having evil karma = bad roleplay for a worshipper of a good god if the char actually worships that god? Must every worshipper act exactly as their god wishes... or even anywhere close? Putting it in 'real-life terms' are Christians who sin automatically not Christians? Is anyone who does evil deeds a Devil worshipper? Expecting everyone to act like the god they worship is imo Super-constricting rp. Just feed me a script and Ill retype the words over my client.

As far as I know(and as always correct me if im wrong) 'worshipping' a god means paying them homage. It MAY mean acting as he would like you to. Favour should mean what the god thinks of you/how much that god 'favours' you. Karma should be how well you follow that gods teachings. This is far how things are treated though.
Why are you hanging out with an outlaw of the city you're supposed to defend? Because he's my friend.
Because Im roleplaying. There are ways to deal w/ enemies besides 'aim at neck' 'backhand chop'.
Why are you hanging out with a follower of an enemy god (or guild enemy)? Because he's my friend.
See above.

This is not a personal rebuttle, PO Tessa just managed to type a few things that baffle/irk me close together. Nor do I feel that any of this was directed at me or my char specifically(certainly not the 'because he's my friend' part.) These are just somethings that frustrate me some and am hoping someone can explain them to me a bit better for the umpteenth time. Dont be upset if I argue with your explanation... its how i figure things out.

PO Goj

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#2 Post by krelji » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:18 am

gojin wrote:
Why are you hanging out with an outlaw of the city you're supposed to defend? Because he's my friend.
Because Im roleplaying. There are ways to deal w/ enemies besides 'aim at neck' 'backhand chop'.
I agree with you here Gojin. I think killing of enemies is being preferred because
it allows you to keep your enemy - at least I would expect that an enemy that I just
killed would try to return the favour soon. Other methods are being frowned upon,
because you might lose an enemy. At least that's the impression I get.
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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#3 Post by tessa » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:09 am

gojin wrote: This is a point of contention with me. I believe there are more reasons to follow a god than simply because he/she is compatible with my rp(not saying that it isnt a viable and good reason). For instance some of the Geasian gods are billed as the parent gods of certain races, so why wouldnt those races follow their parent gods if they do not wish to follow the other available gods? All 'good' chars following the 'good' god and so forth leads to more race mixing/racial gods having no point. Both of which I dislike greatly.
There's a difference between paying homage to a god and following that god's way of life. A follower is assumed to follow his god's teachings, not say, "I like you, but I'm going to go against everything you represent."

I'm sorry, but I can't see how someone could call themselves a follower of Taniel if they don't actually follow Taniel's ways. While burning a couple candles may be correct homage or sacrifice, that's not following his teachings.
Also, why would having evil karma = bad roleplay for a worshipper of a good god if the char actually worships that god? Must every worshipper act exactly as their god wishes... or even anywhere close?
Read above. In addition, considering some of the repercussions there are in the game for having karma way off the mark of your preferred god (some things explained below), I would say that opposing karma is, yes, considered unsuitable for any would-be follower.
Putting it in 'real-life terms' are Christians who sin automatically not Christians? Is anyone who does evil deeds a Devil worshipper?
I don't think using RL religion is a good example. GEAS gods prove and express their existence in Forostar by smiting heathens, granting miracles and powers to their followers, and etc. RL religion is not only arguable by some, but also based entirely on faith with no active participation from their respective gods.

As for the second point, you can be evil in GEAS without following a god. Notably because you're leading a selfish lifestyle and not one devoted to the ways of god X.
As far as I know(and as always correct me if im wrong) 'worshipping' a god means paying them homage. It MAY mean acting as he would like you to. Favour should mean what the god thinks of you/how much that god 'favours' you. Karma should be how well you follow that gods teachings. This is far how things are treated though.
I think it's contradictive to say you worship a god, but don't follow their ways. Paying homage suggests you appreciate the god, but don't necessarily follow their ways. Worshipping suggests you do both. Tessa pays homage to Taniel, Evren, and Zhakrin, but she doesn't worship any of them.

Favour represents how much you've sacrificed to the god and how willing they are to aid you. Karma represents how the god thinks of you as a person.

We can also take into consideration some actual things in the mud:

For instance, Taniel and Evren favour holiness (aka, good karma), and Lilith and Sathonys favour damnation (aka, evil karma). Crusaders with evil karma are pentalized by their gods. Crusaders are also instructed by their two gods to destroy all evil. And, bringing up the new Elor gate, any acclaimed Evren-follower that tries to enter her sanctuary with evil karma gets quite literally thrown out on their posteriors. Also, unless I'm mistaken, some shrine keepers refuse to aid any follower whose karma is repulsive.

Taking these things into consideration, why would Evren or Taniel be pleased with a worshipper whose alignment favours their arch nemesis, and if they did, why would they act this way to their evil followers?
Because Im roleplaying. There are ways to deal w/ enemies besides 'aim at neck' 'backhand chop'.
I don't recall saying anywhere that you had to kill the person. In fact, I even specificially stated that opposing people don't always need to be at each other's throats, so you're taking what I said out of context.

But if you think an Evrenite and Sathonite teaming together to go kill ogres is good RP, well.. I think you're in the minority there. Taking into consideration the addition of opposing faith maluses, reputation, and more guilds having hard-coded traitor lists, I think the wizards agree that enemies are not your hunting buddies.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#4 Post by triska » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:14 am

I really get confused here though.

Sathonys - god of death and destruction=evil god
Lilith - goddess of chaos and darkness=evil goddess
Asral - god of war and death=neutral god
Zhakrin - deity of balance=truly neutral deity
Gwen - goddess of love and order=good goddess
Taniel - god of order and light=good god
Evren - goddess of life and creation=good goddess

Triska finds it confusing that she is an Asral follower which is a neutral god although is told by Taniel Clerics she has an Evil Karma because of it and yet she never did a truly evil thing in her entire life.

She cannot team with her Taniel friends because of this although evil is Sathonys and Lilith and a completely different life style and beleif to that of Asral.

Asral is the god of war and destruction I know that however I only see his followers hunting the same people/monsters as Taniel.

So because she prefers an Honourable fight as an Asral she is considered Evil by Taniel but she isnt.

If you werent confused before I hope you are now !!
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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#5 Post by Herst » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:31 am

Asral is the god of War, Death on the battlefield and destruction I believe.

Asral is also not neutral, he is slightly evil.

Since Asral is a god of destruction, that makes him enemies with Evren, a good god and the god of creation. Evren is also the ally of Taniel.

Even if Asral was completely neutral (which I believe Asrals karam is perfect when you are actually a bit evil) to get to this "neutral" state, if you EVER did anything good at all, you would have to counteract it with something a bit more evil. So you are in fact, doing evil deeds or associating with evil people.
The fact that you are doing evil deeds or associating with evil people to get your karma to this "Neutral" state, does not make you "neutral" it in fact, makes you evil.

That is probably how they see it. Remember, if you have perfect karma in Asrals eyes, you are evil in their eyes. This is an RP world, not everything is perfectly dictated by code.

Quick example: Oh, I saved the kidnapped lady from the orc tower! Now Felron says my karma is decent, but not perfect, bummer. I better go kill some good faeries before anyone finds out, or I can butcher or skin these orcs (or whatever they do to get their karma lowered again) Now Felron says my karma is perfect, great!

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#6 Post by isengoo » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:06 pm

We stay away from the faeries, the Crussies watch those things like hawks.

I do tend to believe that karma shouldn't entirely guide people's RP, but it should be more like a rough guide. I never go so far as to have Isengorn have to fix his karma or, boy oh boy, will Asral be angry with him! He thinks of it more like "gee, I need to stop being so nice all the time" or "hmm, maybe I need to tone down the massacres" and then goes from there.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#7 Post by ganandorf » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:49 pm

In regards to the post above of being a follower vs. paying homage to a god.
I think it is definitely possible to have good favour with a good, but have very bad karma in his eyes. In a case like this it may moreso be an issue of fearing the power of a certain god, so therefore you pay homage to him through devotion of candles and whatnot, but in reality you do not care for anything this god teaches, or embodies, you just straight up fear hiim and want him to favour you. It would have to be roleplayed of course, you cant be going around saying 'oh i am a follower of so and so god, and his word is the only true word, blah blah' you would have to say things like ' i am afraid of the power he possessess, already i have felt his wrath blah blah
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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#8 Post by Herst » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:20 pm

tessa wrote:
But if you think an Evrenite and Sathonite teaming together to go kill ogres is good RP, well.. I think you're in the minority there. Taking into consideration the addition of opposing faith maluses, reputation, and more guilds having hard-coded traitor lists, I think the wizards agree that enemies are not your hunting buddies.
About the enemies teaming:
I believe when things like this happen, it is absolutely ridiculous. However it has happened, it probably still happens, and more than likely it will continue to happen.

About the penalties:
Not severe enough. Perhaps if you are all buddy buddy with your favored gods enemies, your god could make an example out of you and embarrass you so that other followers learn that it is not acceptable or tolerable. I believe this is the only way some people will learn. When they loose their faith or their reputation stinks the usual reply is "I don't know why, and I really don't care"

I have had to personally deal with people in guilds teaming with that guilds enemies on a constant basis "because they are nice to me" "because they are my friend" I have also seen numerous people in various guilds make the same statement and do the same things. Sitting at the crossing or Arborea market place you used to see this constantly, but I don't visit there anymore so I do not know how it is now.

I believe the only way some people will actually RP their role is if they are almost forced to. That is kind of upsetting, considering no one forced them to log on to this mud. The only thing that really annoys me is when people go completely against the basic fundamentals of religion/guilds/etc on the mud. Some people treat it like there is absolutely no religions or guilds and everyone should be friends and hug and kill ogres together.

Enough ranting, I am off to kill ogres with a Taniel Priest! :twisted:

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#9 Post by Delmon » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:19 am

I dont see Taniels teaming with Sathos. I see more Asral follower communication with people that follow other gods than anything else.

But I have a couple questions:

Does the favour or reputation system allow for the difference between a heated debate and a pleasant conversation? Could you spend ooc hours in a heated, "stand up for your god" debate with a Tanielite as an Asralite and still loose favour? Or yell at a person with bad reputation and still loose reputation in the process?

Sparring for a time over and over again: I dont always consider sparring happy time. Sometimes it's about who is skilled or showing a lesson. Do you loose favour with your god if you sparr a religious opposite?

---edit :Religious oppisite is bad word choice sorry. Maby a sparr between Taniel vs Asral or Asral to Zhakrin. But i guess this doesnt happen that much anyways.
Last edited by Delmon on Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#10 Post by luminier » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:32 am

<rant>
Personally I don't understand the dedication people have to players they have never met before.

Lets use an example. If I was an Asral Priest, and someone left the warclerics, if I'd hunted with them my whole damn life Id kill that bastard. He BETRAYED Asral. Your friendship probably happened BECAUSE of Asral. He leaves everything you stand for, and you still wanna be good buds? Thats lunacy.

There have been a few Crusaders I enjoyed playing with, but if they left, Id hunt that bastard down tooth and nail. Just think of it, it opens up a whole new RP window for you two! =)

Teaming with enemies should not even be allowed in my opinion. Im talking hard coded, you cannot join an enemy. But hell the wizards wanna give us SOME breathing room in this matter instead of hardcoding everything and people abuse it completely.

</rant>
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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#11 Post by Herst » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:34 am

There is a difference between sparring and a fight to knock someone out.
That is why there is a sparring command.

If you spar with someone that is supposed to be your enemy, instead of an actual fight, I believe that is .......... sad.

As you sad "sparring a religious opposite" if you mean by "enemy of my religion"
Why would you be sparring them to begin with? For a spar you meet up, chat and talk and decide to spar. If someone is your enemy, you fight.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#12 Post by gojin » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:31 am

Quote:
Because Im roleplaying. There are ways to deal w/ enemies besides 'aim at neck' 'backhand chop'.

I don't recall saying anywhere that you had to kill the person. In fact, I even specificially stated that opposing people don't always need to be at each other's throats, so you're taking what I said out of context.
It was not my intention to present your words out of context but when you said:
Why aren't you hunting your guild enemy? Because he's my friend.
I did assume you meant killing the other char. Still my point was more along the lines of why do you need to fight in the first place(fighting is all good but its not the only option).
There's a difference between paying homage to a god and following that god's way of life. A follower is assumed to follow his god's teachings, not say, "I like you, but I'm going to go against everything you represent."

I'm sorry, but I can't see how someone could call themselves a follower of Taniel if they don't actually follow Taniel's ways. While burning a couple candles may be correct homage or sacrifice, that's not following his teachings.
While this is semi-true it also eliminates the possibility of playing a not so great follower of that god. Meaning a char who does believe in a god's teachings(in general) but for some reason or another, be it lack of discipline or falling to temptation, his karma does not show it. IMO this is not poor rp.

Not to mention that the gods teachings are somewhat up to the char to interpret. And as we agreed Karma is imperfect so using it as the end all/be all of what is good rp for a 'follower' leads to simplifying(read: dumbing down) your rp to fit the code limitations.

Lastly,
Favour represents how much you've sacrificed to the god and how willing they are to aid you. Karma represents how the god thinks of you as a person.
I just do not agree with this in the least. It maybe how it is coded but it is semantically if not completely incorrect. In a game where we translate words into imaginary images semantics are important. My understanding is 'Favour' is how much the god 'favours' you, ie- what he thinks of you. 'Karma' is the sum of your good/evil deeds and a representation of which is greater. I could see how someone's karma could effect a god's favour in that person but the two are neither interchangable nor equal.

PO Goj

PS - Teaming with enemies to kill ogres is retarded and I do not condone anything like that. No way should it be hard-coded though as there are instances where its ok but thats another post.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#13 Post by tessa » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:00 am

gojin wrote:I did assume you meant killing the other char. Still my point was more along the lines of why do you need to fight in the first place(fighting is all good but its not the only option).
In that reference, somewhat. But, generally speaking, guilds are expected to hunt their enemies, and traitors of the guild. Not always necessarily to kill, but sometimes to punish, torture, or whatever else. They aren't put on the enemy list just for looks, after all.

As for city or god enemies, you don't necessarily need to kill them on sight, but you shouldn't be befriending them and picking flowers with them. Same with guild enemies. It gets quite sad when it seems some guilds team and hunt with their guild enemies more often than with their allies.
While this is semi-true it also eliminates the possibility of playing a not so great follower of that god. Meaning a char who does believe in a god's teachings(in general) but for some reason or another, be it lack of discipline or falling to temptation, his karma does not show it. IMO this is not poor rp.
We might be arguing two different cases here. My itch was with people that claim to be devout followers of god XXX and follow the god's teachings and is a better follower than people who do things another way, yet said person's karma sucks bad and they simply dismiss it as rubbish. If the character is RPed as egotistical, that's one thing, but if the person sincerely says "I follow God XXX perfectly and karma means absolutely nothing", then I consider that sketchy. Things like karma aren't added in the game to be selectively used or ignored depending on if it supports or hurts your argument, and I get tired of people treating it like that. Same with reputation.
Not to mention that the gods teachings are somewhat up to the char to interpret. And as we agreed Karma is imperfect so using it as the end all/be all of what is good rp for a 'follower' leads to simplifying(read: dumbing down) your rp to fit the code limitations.
Gods are up to interpretation to a degree. Since the more fanatical gods do support one end of the spectum or another, and actions can push your karma one way or another, it's pretty easy to tell how gods feel about some actions (ie; skinning and butchering sentient creatures).
No way should it be hard-coded though as there are instances where its ok but thats another post.
That's something you'll need to argue with the admin.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#14 Post by sun » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:54 am

tessa wrote:In that reference, somewhat. But, generally speaking, guilds are expected to hunt their enemies, and traitors of the guild. Not always necessarily to kill, but sometimes to punish, torture, or whatever else. They aren't put on the enemy list just for looks, after all.
I agree. But the most common seems to be that "he left as a friend", "he was not expelled" or "he decided to go another path" etc. Or the most sucky example of where someone leaves, pays once with his life, and then is left alone. It's cheap powergaming and it undermines the entire system. I personally think the wizzies should make sure that the guild leaders actively enforce their members to hunt, or at least punish at sight, former guild members, no matter what reason they had to leave.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#15 Post by luminier » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:56 am

Im with you 100 % sun. it would definately make people think twice about leaving, and perhaps garner better roleplay.
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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#16 Post by Herst » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:27 am

I agree.

What you will have those, is a guild trying to do what they should and hunt the traitors and that guild will end up in a war with the traitors new guild.

You have instances were the only thing that will affect when someone joins their new guild is when the ooc timer runs out.

You would think that some guilds were have better judgment and not so quickly accept people who are a known traitor/liar/etc........but they don't.
This is something else that probably will not change unless it is enforced.
The common practice seems to be "Stick our banner on his helmet and let him fight for us! Nothing else required"

There are exceptions to everything, but everything should not always be the exception.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#17 Post by Delia » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:38 am

The common shao problem is that when someone leaves and stays as a southerner. For example, someone leaves and joins the crusaders or somesuch for example. In all simplicity the monks find their hands tied when thinking of bravely going and punish in whatever ways imaginable those utterly loathed guildtraitors. Sure you could go and start a losing war or go on a phychotic neverending murdering spree but try belong in a lawful, law-abiding group of people at the same time...problematic.

Even without people joining any other guilds afterwards but living a life as a respectable citizen in Arborea or Elvandar the problem is still the same. Treat life as dirt and laws as toilet paper at best? Hmm... Sometimes I end up thinking Delia should order all those monk robes dyed black and some silvery skull ornaments added also. Atleast the problem would be solved :) Anyways, religious groups can easily justify slaughter, killing and ignoring "mortal" laws at convenience. Others need to choose outlawry and isolation is they seek to pursue any "guild-justice"(given most earthly power is in religious hands also...) Any thoughts? Or is it just kill-kill-kill all the way?
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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#18 Post by sun » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:51 am

That seems like a difficult problem indeed. I do not know how to solve it in a good way. But in either case, a first step seems to me to talk to the guild leader of the guild that person joined. I think that every guild leader would have understanding. Perhaps they are more inclined to hang the guy out rather than protect him? I am not sure what I would do if I was LM of Crusaders..

If not, you should at least be able to reach some sort of agreement which says that using Shao-Lin skills should be punished by the Crusade itself if they are used. I am sure that is something they would agree on. When it comes to neutral going to evil, you should in a similiar fashion be able to get help from the good side to hunt them "extra hard". Although, they might not want to help if you are not "good enough". Maybe get some law support? There are options.

But yes, I see your difficulties. However, neutral guilds, shao-lin and asral clerics etc is probably those kind of guilds where it is extra important, since maybe the extreme good/evil have slightly more tendency to regulate it by themselves. But I'd say it is very important to focus on the problem for the shao-lin...

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#19 Post by Herst » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:32 pm

Well, maybe the Shaolin are the exception in this case ;)
They do have very limited options.

From what I have seen though, the Shaolin handle it the best way they can. At least I can not think of another way that they could do it any better.

I have not seen much of it though, but from what I have seen it seems fitting for them.

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Re: Worship, Favour, and Karma... Again

#20 Post by Grindel » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:54 pm

I personally think the wizzies should make sure that the guild leaders actively enforce their members to hunt, or at least punish at sight, former guild members, no matter what reason they had to leave.
Im with you 100 % sun. it would definately make people think twice about leaving, and perhaps garner better roleplay.
So, wizards animating players to endless vendettas brings us better roleplay? -- am I missing something here?

I see it this way: Guild hopping happens, and why not. When you look at veteran players you will not find a single one that did not do it. There are systems in the game that prevent hopping, such as the dark-elf-ritual. If on the other hand guilds allow members to leave, then it is just fine to do so. Consequences of this are played just as well, if you leave the crusaders, you _will_ have a hard life afterwards. If some other guild handles this differently, where's the problem?


Is it just me or is all this talk getting stranger every day? Every threads runs off topic quickly and ends in just the same rant about making the game more extreme. It's the same faces in every of these threads, ranting about how the game is played wrongly, and how the game and the way it is played must be change by force... Get a grip, folks.

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