Guilds & Accepting People

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krelji
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#21 Post by krelji » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:06 pm

tessa wrote:And the Gwennie side is cooler than all others. Proven fact.
I want to see this proof. :)
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#22 Post by stilgar » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:50 am

The exshao-exthief-exwhatever-
IcanstealIcancastmagicandIhavepowerfulfriendssoyoucannevercatchme chars are the best. :twisted:

and no.. no proof of that.. :twisted:
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#23 Post by vurdijak » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:51 am

Accepting the right people is a fine line. I have seen more than one guild get completely torn apart and 'made dead' because of overacceptance. I have never seen a guild blow up from underacceptance, but the opposite. If not enough are accepted eventually it just becomes under the radar, with not enough members present to make a presence. In my opinion, the mud over time has done an excellent job at regulating this type of thing. Some hard lessons have been learned ICly and OOCly (at least in my case).

I dont see a huge problem with this right now. If guild leaders make mistakes, they get to deal with them in the game. If players join and leave, they get to deal with it in the game.

Gwennites are the best and I offer my avatar as proof.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#24 Post by Olrane » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:41 pm

Gwen supports androgynous avatars. Clearly a danger to Forostar. Asral must crush the Gwennites.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#25 Post by gojin » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:16 pm

amrat wrote:Or are we really talking about IC issues here. If this is the case, I am somewhat confused about the nature of these complaints. Is it the general level of the roleplaying that is the problem here or just the fact that the characters do not become psychopathic “perfect people” programmed to follow the guild rules exactly the moment they join? If we are talking about in character decisions in leading a guild here, they would depend on the character making the decision, right?

I would personally really hate the situation where only the mindless drones are allowed to join guilds and the situation being what it is, I already do. There are very little to none internal conflicts in the guilds as any conflict “weakens the guild” and OOCly people are against anything like that. It has been said that entrance to the guilds should be roleplay intensive, but on the other hand that characters having flaws or even personality should not be accepted because “their actions are the actions of the guild” and those people might act on something.
I would not want "mindless drones" either and agree that there is not enough(any) internal guild conflict. In short you are right and I was discussing more of an OOC issue.

As far as internal guild conflict... until the shao are a viable force again any internal conflict would have to be known only inside the Temple. As things are now, the leadership would be hard-pressed to toss a member of the guild who bring attention from certain forces or are too overt in their attempt to loosen the shao from their place under a crusader boot ;) Also, when engaging in internal guild conflict inside the temple watch out for the Tanielite shao snitches. The guys who care more for being friends with the Crusade than being Shaolin... they are watching.

Shaolin are in a difficult position because 1) allowing anyone into the guild who are not inline with Taniels causes Taniels to be suspicious of them 2) having Tanielite members means forever playing robin to the Crusade's batman 3) not playing robin to batman means the guild being smashed over and over again until playing robin looks like a very attractive option(I believe this is similar to now) 4) they cant really defend themselves.

PO Goj

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#26 Post by tessa » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:59 pm

gojin wrote:Also, when engaging in internal guild conflict inside the temple watch out for the Tanielite shao snitches. The guys who care more for being friends with the Crusade than being Shaolin... they are watching.
I can't help but feel this is a pretty direct accusation towards me. Mind elaborating?

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#27 Post by Herst » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:04 pm

tessa wrote:
gojin wrote:Also, when engaging in internal guild conflict inside the temple watch out for the Tanielite shao snitches. The guys who care more for being friends with the Crusade than being Shaolin... they are watching.
I can't help but feel this is a pretty direct accusation towards me. Mind elaborating?

If you think its a direct accusation towards you, it is elaborate enough.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#28 Post by luminier » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:01 pm

you know you can be neutral without the crusade crushing you. contrary to popular (or just gojins) belief. look at the asrals. they are actually more evil than then shaolin and we aren't crushing them, nor do bother them much/ ask for their help/affect their guild/ or anything negative really. then again they don't bother us much either.

the only reason the shaolins seem to be friends with the crusade is because they choose to be at the moment. im sure tmr they could say "you know what? screw the crusade, we want independance" and the crusade wouldn't attack them for it, just think less of them.

tessa doesn't snitch either. if thats indeed what you meant... lol iunno what gave u that idea.

and to be perfectly honest, we are curious of everyone. we have to be thinking and constantly questioning people to root out evil. people have messed up ways of hiding what they do.

there has also been many non-tanielite members who haven't been "smashed" over and over. and the only reason a specific shaolin is being "smashed" is so obviously clear it doesn't even need explanation.

feel free to question something if it's unclear, i clearly can't write coherently. im lazy.
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#29 Post by gojin » Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:23 am

tessa wrote:I can't help but feel this is a pretty direct accusation towards me. Mind elaborating?
Actually... I didnt even know your char was in cahoots with the Crusade. I mentioned Tanielite shaos, as far as I know Tessa is a Gwennite. If I must be completely honest, and I will because I dont want you to think I was accusing you in any way, I was referring to Zengo back in the day. Admittedly, everything I know about it is second hand knowledge but the possibility/ability for taniel shaos to out what their neutral(not-evil)guildmates are doing/saying to the crusade is a real one.

Now, I dont believe i criticized the cruxies in my post, ive mentioned before I believe they play excellent 'good' evil bastards. I also try to avoid doing so in general as it usually sounds like whining but its late and im bored so ill indulge myself with some childish debate :twisted:
luminier wrote:you know you can be neutral without the crusade crushing you. contrary to popular (or just gojins) belief. look at the asrals. they are actually more evil than then shaolin and we aren't crushing them, nor do bother them much/ ask for their help/affect their guild/ or anything negative really. then again they don't bother us much either.
Right... so your proof that the Crusade doesnt go around crushing other guilds is that the guild that you totally CRUSHED to the point that most of them piss their pants when one of their members angers a crusader is no longer actively being crushed :roll:
luminier wrote:the only reason the shaolins seem to be friends with the crusade is because they choose to be at the moment. im sure tmr they could say "you know what? screw the crusade, we want independance" and the crusade wouldn't attack them for it, just think less of them.
I dont play a shao but it seems fairly obvious that the reason the shao are 'friends' with the crusade is that they dont want their temple razed/chars slaughtered once or twice a reboot. They would have nowhere to run if the crusade turned on them and probably dont want to turn into one of the CRUSHED guilds the crusade have left in their wake ie- Asrals/Rangers.
luminier wrote:there has also been many non-tanielite members who haven't been "smashed" over and over. and the only reason a specific shaolin is being "smashed" is so obviously clear it doesn't even need explanation.
Im not aware of the 'specific' shao or the situation so I cannot comment.

All in good fun lumi, feel free to flame back :wink:

PO Goj

PS - If i ever feel the need to call out or accuse anyone of anything I will do so via private message. Im not into unwarrantly criticizing others in a public forum where they dont have the opportunity to sock me in the mouth.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#30 Post by tessa » Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:20 am

gojin wrote:If I must be completely honest, and I will because I dont want you to think I was accusing you in any way, I was referring to Zengo back in the day. Admittedly, everything I know about it is second hand knowledge but the possibility/ability for taniel shaos to out what their neutral(not-evil)guildmates are doing/saying to the crusade is a real one.
Well, I do feel a need to respond a bit since it was brought up, but for the sake of not drawing this into a heated argument, I'll keep it to this:

The situation with Zengo was a rivalry with a single specific Shaolin, and not with the guild as a whole. This other specific Shaolin was also suspected of doing similar things to him, except with a different group. I don't feel it's fair to say one Shaolin or the other in this situation were out to screw their guild as a whole, but rather they had an isolated but intense rivalry with each other that disputedly took higher precedence than fellowship in the guild.

If you're curious of further inquiry of the situation, we can do so through PMs. And it would probably be better if any others that want to reply do the same.

With that said, I feel the possibility of Tanielite Shaolins outing their fellow Shaolin is just as likely as other Shaolin outing their fellow Shaolin to other allegiances. While the Shaolin may have at some point had Tanielite loyalists, they'd had just as many if not more Zhakrinite, Asralite, and Sathonite loyalists. More often than not, however, these extremists tend to change views or get tossed out of the guild for some reason or another.
I dont play a shao but it seems fairly obvious that the reason the shao are 'friends' with the crusade is that they dont want their temple razed/chars slaughtered once or twice a reboot.
I'm not actually aware of many Shaolin that are 'friends' with the Crusade. In fact, I think most of them begrudgingly tolerate Crusaders, like most everyone else in the game. Delia and Tessa are friendly with the Crusaders, but I don't think it's fear of the Shaolin being 'crushed' so much as the fact that they share common interests (keeping the world safe from the destructive and unnatural forces of Sathonys and Lilith), despite not always agreeing on the appropriate means to reach their ends. With Delia as the Speaker and only really active Master, I guess it can be conceived as the Shaolin guild as a whole, though I've felt that in matters of quantity, the Shaolin often befriend the Asralites.

EDIT:

As for the guilds that were 'crushed' by the Crusade, it was the Asralites who declared war on the Crusaders, and later refused to surrender despite many offers to do so. Or, to be fair, it was the leader of the Asralites at the time that made these choices, rather than the guild as a whole. I do think they would have been defeated only half as hard as they were had they surrendered at the first offer when it was obvious that they were not going to win.

I don't remember the Ranger event as well since I wasn't directly involved, but I think it had to do with a Ranger that had worshipped Lilith and killed creatures of Evren, and when said Ranger was hunted by the Crusaders for these reasons afterwards, his comrades defended him, and so began the guild-wide conflict.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#31 Post by luminier » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:20 am

Tessa, I don't think I could've said it better myself.

The whole Asral thing you hit dead on so I won't even touch that.

The Ranger thing was kind of a twofold deal. You had supposed "good hearted and kind, help a noobie out" Rangers who were backstabbing and following gods and i believe even cannibalizing(although that may have been after expulsion, before or after it certainly doesn't look good.) The Crusade targetted that one rangers via order of the current Lord Marshall of the time. More and more rangers started defending the person in question and because most of the rangers were followers of asral even asral clerics got involved. It was at that time when lumi/rex/unicorn went on a literal killing spree that went essentially unregulated by the Lord Marshall, because it's what he wanted. It crippled the rangers quite a bit... but look at what the guild actually had. most of the followers did evil things openly. I truly think the only honest members were Dax and Arthur(despite some flaws in judgement I believe Arthur made). So of the two examples of "crushing" one was justified slightly while one was ... "poorly executed" but "right" in a RP sense, but probably not in an OOC sense, as many got fed up with the game at the time.

incoherent ftw? *bows*
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#32 Post by gojin » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:39 am

I understood the circumstances for the Asrals/Rangers, etc. I never said anything was done without justified rp reasons. The fact remains however that the cruxies go around crushing other guilds.

I just thought it was funny that the example lumi used for the crusade not going around crushing anyone who disagrees with them was a guild they already crushed.

The crusade is sweet because their rp is impossible to avoid or rather has made an undeniable change in the game. They are holyier than thow bastards that enforce their way of thinking on everyone else. But its not like you can dispute the fact, you cannot go around pretending the Crusade doesnt have a huge influence. Chars/Players are genuinely afraid of them and what they will do to them if the openly disagree. I dont know how this is coming off but I am paying cruxies a huge compliment. You are scarier than sathos have ever been and consequently less liked... which is part of the whole "sathos are nice cruxies are evil" mentality that occurs at times. Its not that anyone wants to be friends with sathos, they just want cruxies to die ;) Enough about the crusade though, as this is a shao thread.

Basically shaos are your 'friends'(notice quotations insinuate sarcasm) because they are afraid of you, not because they think you're nice ;)

Edit: BTW, you totally let me down with the flaming. Why'd you have to go all mature on me bro'?

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#33 Post by tessa » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:43 am

gojin wrote:BTW, you totally let me down with the flaming.
Purify him! PURIFY HIIIM!!!

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#34 Post by ganandorf » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:55 am

Ahhhh shit, we're nice guys now, damn, someone is going to have to change that.
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#35 Post by isengoo » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:38 am

It isn't that, it's just that you are the lesser of two evils.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#36 Post by tessa » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:18 am

*three evils

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#37 Post by luminier » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:59 pm

Iunno Gojin, i think that most people would agree that if you do evil things the crusade will be on you like white on rice.

many neutral people that hate the crusade never see the big picture of why their best evil friend just got wtfowned by the Crusade, while to me and everyone who knows the circumstances understands that it is completely justified.

Then you have the sathos and actively right now are plagueing arborea and making undeads. I don't think they could be making the taniels and crusaders look any more friendly right now! Who kills -most- of the undead. Crusade. Who can eliminate the plague? Taniel Clergy. Why are we the big bad guys when Sathos are the ones actively trying to kill you? Thats why I like the current Sathos, they are improving the mud hugely.

Regardless Shaolin shouldn't have fear of us, they should have fear of Sathonys, like everyone else should. The shaos are probably friends with us because they wanna be on our good side so the sathonys don't target them. That would make more sense to me. shaos are lawful. crusade is lawful (in most circumstances) and devout. common aim also usually means togetherness.


I agree with the people that say, guilds should choose carefully their members. No more backstabbing rangers, no more dishonorable asrals, no more cheating sathonys priests, no more vow breaking crusaders.
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#38 Post by Delmon » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:03 pm

Maby about two ooc months of fair amount of time with a character is enough to decide whether they can join a guild or not. Any more is just frustrating for the wannabe.
The Ranger thing was kind of a twofold deal. You had supposed "good hearted and kind, help a noobie out" Rangers who were backstabbing and following gods and i believe even cannibalizing(although that may have been after expulsion, before or after it certainly doesn't look good.)
Anyways, be careful luminier about describing the past because i like to talk about these too. :twisted: So this is the story from rangers perspective. When the Crusaders crushed the rangers, it was after the Lilithian ranger was back to following "no god." but by then, he had attacked unicorns and had flaunted the iron amulet. It was also after he was given the choice to change his ways or leave, by the ranger leader (not dax at this point). He stayed, lost his rank and "award" weapon, and was about to recieve more in guild punishments but the crusaders decided it was their problem too. Furthermore, throughout this time, acceptable backstabbing and accepting evil religions was thrown out of the guild laws. So, looks like the rangers where changing, but crusaders decided to step in because it wasnt happening as fast as they liked.
The crusaders mounted an attack on a group of OTHER rangers, backstabbers yes, but not the former lilithian backstabber, and lost that battle. the war erupted, lots of deaths after, mostly rangers. :evil:
i believe even cannibalizing
the cannibalism, luminier, and phsco actions didnt come until far after this crusade/ranger conflict. Actually, it began after Luminier randomly came apon him in a tree and told him to draw his weapon and die. confusion confusion.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#39 Post by Herst » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:48 pm

First of all, Rangers should not backstab, or kill animals like unicorns.
That is common sense.

If these were not guild rules it is because the player was expected to have enough common sense to know better. The Ranger should have been expelled and made a permanent enemy on the spot.

Rangers should not be Sathonites or Lilithians. Another thing left to common sense, yet people obviously could not understand this. So the change had to be made to make it obvious. That is very saddening.

If the Ranger turned cannabil after he left the guild/was expelled, he showed he was not a real Ranger to begin with. As if the killing of unicorns wasn't enough evidence already.

It is quite depressing that people have to have everything written down and put right in front of them or they either abuse the fact it is not a "written" rule, or they just don't care.

So, to assimilate this post into the topic. The "Ranger" in question should not have been allowed to join the guild until he learned what was acceptable and not. Regardless of how long he waited.
Last edited by Herst on Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#40 Post by ganandorf » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:53 pm

Lumi said: "The shaos are probably friends with us because they wanna be on our good side so the sathonys don't target them."

Actually its the exact opposite
Sorry shoudlve justified this, what i meant is that because the shaos are friends with the crusaders, sometiems that makes them even more of a target.
Last edited by ganandorf on Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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