Guilds & Accepting People

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Delia
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Guilds & Accepting People

#1 Post by Delia » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:41 am

Many threads have discussed this to a degree so I thought it would be proper to make one dedicated topic for this.

Any good guidelines?
How much should one put the applicants to prove themselves?
How much is too much?

This has always been quite difficult. When you try to involve yourself with an applicant and spend your time discussing with him overtime, explaining stuff, leading by example and all that fluff...you usually only see that person disappering as he grew frustrated from waiting a couple of weeks or so. Taking in after a short briefing is the other opposite usually yielding even less impressive results(shudders).

All in all it seems no matter what you do, how much you devote RP and your personal time, it all boils down to if the player is dedicated to stick around and doing the guildstuff or not.

?
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#2 Post by ganandorf » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:38 am

Well from what ive seen those who are tested for longer, even though they might get more frustrated usually end up staying in the guild, but those who are immediately accepted usually leave pretty fast.
I don't really know where a middle ground can be found, i think it all depends on the player being accepted. If he understands what the guild is all about then perhaps he should be accepted sooner than someone who just wants to 'learn how to kick and punch and beat people up'.
And if someone cannot wait a few weeks to join a guild then thats their problem, heck i waited a few months to join a guild that never planned or did accept me ;)
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#3 Post by Herst » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:37 am

I do not think there is to long of a period of time to wait to join a guild.
The longer someone waits, the more you know that they really intend on doing what the guild requires of them.

Too many guilds accept young characters way to early just to "give them a chance" and to "be nice". Then the characters get the idea that what they have already done is acceptable and they do not have to put forth anymore effort (even when told they do)

If a character sticks around through a tough testing phase, then he will probably stick around the guild through tough times.

Of course, some characters should have to wait longer than others, and some make a good impression quickly.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#4 Post by sun » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:36 am

I do not like the long times it takes to join a guild. Not because it does not make sense in the world, but because I think it has something to do with the general availability of the MUD for everyone. Of course this does not mean that it should be wide open, but rather that it should be tester how willing and able someone is to learn and adapt to new concepts, rather than waging all of this against a single point in time when he joins.

For example, a good idea is to let young people in rather quickly if they get the basics and limit them to what they can do in the guild. Forbid them to enter rooms, use certain equipment or so, but allow a sub-set. Rather than putting it all "on one card" at one point in time, spread it out and do it repeatedly. If the person does not like to accept teachings or does not fit, expel him while he still had only a very limited experience of the guild and its skills/information.

My point is here that you can not buy yourself a membership by proving that you are good for a single "test point". That does not solve the guild-hopping problem either. Only if you keep a good standard and manage your pupils over time and make sure they might be fired if they don't behave, then you can get good control. The burden is on those who joins to prove that they really understood and to gain your trust!

There is no reason to keep people close that you do not trust, but no point in never allowing them in either, because it makes people generally leave the MUD.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#5 Post by Olrane » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:11 pm

High standards for guild entry make getting accepted finally very rewarding. But Sun is right - new players to the MUD are often used to starting a game with no barriers to guild or "class" joining. It can be very boring to be unincorporated to a new player without extraordinary dedication to Geas. On the one hand, you could say that we don't want less dedicated players, but I'd rather have more players and then train them up to be acceptable and beneficial members of the community.

I still don't know if letting someone into a guild right off is good. Even the entry level of a guild confers a lot to a character. However, I highly support introducing new characters to a guild's policies, practices, etc. for a considerably long time before an invitation. A prospective guild member should be treated in many ways as a low-level guild member without the skills or equipment. Make them feel included by teaming with them, getting to know them, training them in common related skills, and testing them thoroughly. It's very easy for a character to prove himself to be worthy of a guild if the guild is actively involved in learning about that character. It's very rewarding both to the guild and to the prospective guild member to be evaluated by many different current guild members, as it lets the whole community learn about the new guy. Once all of the hoops are jumped through, then is the best time for an invitation, in my opinion.

By showing an active interest in new characters and recruitment without too hastily recruiting, new players will be interested enough to stay around. Once they are interested, they will usually prove or disprove their worth quite naturally long before an invitation. It's hard for you to go too long on the testing process if you keep that character close.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#6 Post by isengoo » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:29 pm

Note - that's a lot of work and you usually can't depend on anyone (even yourself) to go through all that over some guy who is just bound to be an idiot and leave within a week. People are generally stupid and make mistakes even when you explain things to them in the most minute details, so if you ask me the best way to go about it is have a shortish training/get to know you period, then invite them and tell them in no uncertain terms that they are on a short leash. If they don't screw up for a while, then you let that leash out a bit longer, if they do screw up then they either get punished or get the boot.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#7 Post by Herst » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:07 pm

Another thing to remember is this :

When a guild accepts someone in a short amount of time without weighing all the risks/consequences...etc...... everyone in that guild will pay for their mistakes. They represent the guild, and the guild accepted them. Their actions are the actions of that guild. That is at least how I see it.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#8 Post by gojin » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:07 am

Hmmm, I posted a similar themed reply on the shao thread just before reading this one...

To limit redudency let me say that I agree with Ganon and Hearst almost completely. Someone mentioned somewhere that the posts on this forum were becoming more 'extreme'. If so, I think its directly correlated to the game becoming more 'extreme'. And IMO guilds are not the place to learn your way around an 'extreme' Geas.

Entrance to guilds should be rp intensive and the player should have a good understanding of the world and the pros/cons and consequences of joining a guild before they are close to doing so. Yes, this will discourage new players and im sure many will leave because they cannot automatically join a guild. The focus should then be on keeping these players around with other things to do. See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=890

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#9 Post by triska » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:39 am

this will discourage new players and im sure many will leave because they cannot automatically join a guild. The focus should then be on keeping these players around with other things to do.
One way to keep those interested is to have a newbie only guild more work for wizards yes I know however using a former muds example without naming the mud so that all the newbies go running off there is this.

A newbie area where only players of a certain age or level can go and no other players are allowed in except designated helpers. The area is a mini world with monsters reflecting those of the Main world but powered to the level of the growing newbie. Small quests for the newbie area only , a shop, inn, armoury weaponry to supply kitting in the same way as the Main world but since only the loot from the monsters in the newbie area this will give adequate armour and weapons. Once the newbie reaches a certain level he is warned this is your last visit to the newbie area since you are now strong and wise enough to go survive the Main world.

Players that have never visited Geas before would learn syntax and the methods of fighting and or crafting , forms of travel , how to use help files etc..

When I was first in Geas I didnt know what thildens were or got seriously lost trying to find them and when I did find them thought for me that they were really hard creatures and not newbie level specially since I was ill equipped to go fight them till much later. By the time I was ready to tackle them I was almost too old to go there but that area is one that springs to mind that could be more adaptable for true newbies to Geas.
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#10 Post by Delia » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:50 am

I would rather say more newbie oriented areas rather than areas completely shut from rest of the mud. It would be hard to make sense for it IC unless it was a magic pocket dimension or something such.

Concerning guildstuff...
Guess one shao problem is that once someone is in, one can learn just about everything a master can even without one promotion. Masters have one exclusive skill and the other master-related stuff takes aeons to learn which can put off some people.

Then again governing a guild as the single active master(usually) has its own difficulties. It could be easier if I were composed of bits of code rather than flesh and blood. Alas, I have real-life to cope with also. Hence those crucial talks with the masters are hard to come by...
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#11 Post by amrat » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:59 am

This thread seems to be about finding IC solutions to OOC problems.

If someone joins a guild for powergaming reasons he is likely to play the perfect candidate. He won't get into problems or conflicts, he won't argue with the guild leaders and most certainly he won't break the rules of the guild. He is there there to learn the skills and reap the benefits, not to play someone with character flaws (or even to play a character). At least not until he has what he came for.

If the player gets bored with the guild he is currently in and wants change it is an OOC issue. If the player joined the clerics of the God of War and then wants to leave the guild when there is the first real war because he doesn't want to do PvP, this is again an OOC issue.

No amount of IC communication is going to fix these. The player is the one with the problem, not the character.
gojin wrote:2)Hold members to a higher standard(its fairly easy for me to see who intends to play a shao and who is there to learn shao skills before they move on... Im far from the most intelligent person on these forums so I assume its just as easy for everyone else).
What does “hold members to a higher standard” mean in this case? Yes, I've been able to spot quite a few people who join the shaolin just to learn the skills. As mentioned before it is usually those “too perfect candidates” who just powertrain and do not interract otherwise at all. It also helps if their description is something like “cold-faced, wicked” and they claim to be good (I wonder which guild they are going to join next...).
gojin wrote:Its my opinion, which I fully expect to be ill-received, that the solution starts with shao masters being more selective when bringing new members into the guild and more proactive with booting players when it becomes apparent they are there for a short term ride. I understand how this is hard, when trying to revive a semi-dying guild you figure any new member is a good one but the emphasis must be put on 'quality' else the shao will continue to be used as a place to 'build up' your char before joining the guild you intend to play.
Delia wrote:Last thing they need are endless rows of monks all harbouring their private vendettas against(usually) Taniels and Crusaders, I've seen quite few of those. If you cannot submit to the rule of your superiors in the end, boot to the head.
Or are we really talking about IC issues here. If this is the case, I am somewhat confused about the nature of these complaints. Is it the general level of the roleplaying that is the problem here or just the fact that the characters do not become psychopathic “perfect people” programmed to follow the guild rules exactly the moment they join? If we are talking about in character decisions in leading a guild here, they would depend on the character making the decision, right?

I would personally really hate the situation where only the mindless drones are allowed to join guilds and the situation being what it is, I already do. There are very little to none internal conflicts in the guilds as any conflict “weakens the guild” and OOCly people are against anything like that. It has been said that entrance to the guilds should be roleplay intensive, but on the other hand that characters having flaws or even personality should not be accepted because “their actions are the actions of the guild” and those people might act on something.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#12 Post by ganandorf » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:08 pm

The one thing that i see, in the shaos specifically is that alot of new characters flock there. I think mainly its because the shao try to avoid conflict (cept for the masters) so theirs no guild enemies to hunt, or enemies hunting you Which is A good thing in a way for the noobs.
But its bad for the shao because their basically a spinning door, people walk in and walk out whenever they please, and really, not many repercussions to worry about.
To be honest i think thats the root of the problem, how to resolve that IC will be slightly hard, because of course theres only one ACTIVE master shao. I think to fix the problem, you may have to speak to the guildwiz about it, see what can be done codewise, maybe for example, taking what you said in the last post, limit what moves white belts can learn, IC that will be hard to control so coding will be required i think.
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#13 Post by Olrane » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:43 pm

The idea to keep newbie shaos down by not letting them learn certain skills is not very likely to matter. One of the most important laws of the game is that your character can practice and improve any skill that he understands how to do. To impose any kind of restriction to learning a skill that a character knows goes against the fabric of the game.

The best that could be done, code-wise, is to keep the Shaolin trainers from teaching the basic knowledge in certain shaolin skills. However, from my experience, newbie Shaos have a good chance to pick up on shaolin skills if they spend a bit of time with the masters. My character learned two or three shaolin skills before he was invited to the guild.

There are already certain things within the guild that require advancement to be available. The big problem is just that Delia is the only master around. She can't know everything about every prospective Shao, so it's very hard to screen them well.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#14 Post by tessa » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:03 pm

Making it so only masters or higher-ranked Shaolin can learn the advanced moves might help.

I made a long speech about why I agreed with Gojin's post, but I removed it when I realized the Shaolin's biggest problem currently is a lack of masters. And between Delia having a lot to do both outside the game and in the game already, I don't feel it's fair to blame her for not doing research on each and every potential and student.

So, what might help is having more masters around. Then I might mention what I think would help with this accepting situation.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#15 Post by Delia » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:09 am

I would personally really hate the situation where only the mindless drones are allowed to join guilds and the situation being what it is, I already do. There are very little to none internal conflicts in the guilds as any conflict “weakens the guild” and OOCly people are against anything like that. It has been said that entrance to the guilds should be roleplay intensive, but on the other hand that characters having flaws or even personality should not be accepted because “their actions are the actions of the guild” and those people might act on something.
During the times when there are multiple masters around there is a pleasant amount of slowly proceeding(read shao-paced) conflict. Most of that is now unavailable given the circumstances. As for the non-masters sure there can and should be conflict, personal motives/agendas and all that jazz but the fact remains is remaining in the guild how important for those conflict causing characters? Depending on the conflict of course. What I meant with the personal vendettas before is that usually when crusaders and taniels have cracked down on some larger groups of people indulging on some nastiness real or imagined the reactions are quite visible for the 'neutral' traveller. Having witnessed this multiple times I just have to wonder(call me a disillusioned cynic, go ahead)is it the character or the player speaking? As most of those people act with little regard for their personal safety and with lofty ideas of personal freedom and freedom of speech(which I see being a very scarce commodity in the world of Geas), lashing against the oppressing forces and some of those naturally flock towards the shaos also. Sometimes acting in a way that causes me to think is it just to draw the shaos to the conflict against the nasty good guys resolved to end all the casual happy-go-lucky mudding with little consequences.

I'd think twice about spitting in the face of someone who 1)has a high position in a powerful and influential organization 2) has legal authority to throw you into jail to rot just for spitting 3)can call on a horde of brutes to teach you and your friends a lesson...so...*smiles and bows politely just in case*

again on and off topic...
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#16 Post by tessa » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:39 am

A lot of people feel the Crusaders and Taniel Clerics are bullies, but after seeing the amount of badmouthing from some neutral characters, I start to wonder if half the conflict comes from the people bringing attention to themselves and testing the patience of these groups. I don't think it'd be a big surprise if people who act indignant find themselves in the hot spot down the road.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#17 Post by Herst » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:01 am

People want to badmouth others all the time on the mud. They have the feeling that they have some sort of "Freedom of Speech", when they don't.
I believe that each time they get beaten is a good lesson in RP for them. They are in Forostar, not modern day U.S.A. They do not have that freedom.

I am also quite disappointed with people following Sathos around saying "oh cool, can I watch you, you guys do neat stuff". This is a bit upsetting considering the Sathonites were murdering people and spreading plague all around.

If you have ever seen the messages for these, it is not neat, it is pretty disgusting ;)

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#18 Post by isengoo » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:30 pm

The evil side has been scientifically proven to be cooler than the good side.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#19 Post by krelji » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:43 pm

isengoo wrote:The evil side has been scientifically proven to be cooler than the good side.
Has this proof you are talking about been peer reviewed yet? And if it is, then I'd
like to see the proof sometimes.
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#20 Post by tessa » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:57 pm

And the Gwennie side is cooler than all others. Proven fact.

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