Guilds & Accepting People

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Delmon
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#41 Post by Delmon » Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:36 pm

That is common sense
It was common sense to most of us that backstabbing was a tool used for either good or evil, and could be used sparingly.

It was also common sense that all religions were accepted as long as they didnt act apon their religion in an evil manner.
he showed he was not a real Ranger to begin with
That's a rediculous claim. Other than the unicorn killing he was a fine ranger for what the rangers were at the time(he recieved a special ornamental dagger for his efforts and rose in the ranks). However, he went too far, and then when the world came down apon him(in his narrow perspective) he abandoned the rangers, and norms completely.

The rangers fixed the problems. I dont see why it is so "saddening" or "depressing" to see a character or characters pushing the limits of what is acceptable. At least things happen, whether bad or good. And, "what a ranger should be" is now very defined.

So, to assimilate this post into the topic, the ranger should have been allowed because he was a good ranger of that era.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#42 Post by Herst » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:31 pm

The "Rangers" of that era were apparently very ........ wrong.

That is why there had to be some intervention.

It was accepting the behavior of the backstabbers and so forth that pretty much ruined them.

You claim it was common sense that backstabbing was used as tool for good and evil? Then why was it changed long before said incidents happened?
There is most certainly not anything good about it.

You say any religion could be accepted as long as they did not act upon it in an evil manner? If you follow and evil religion, you are evil. If you fail to see this, I am sorry. Another reason an intervention had to be done. A lot more can be said about "I am a Lilithian but I am not evil because I don't act on it!" as well, but I won't even justify that with a response.

He was a fine ranger of that era? That could be why the Rangers of that era are pretty much non-existent or not even Rangers anymore.

Also, mentioning earning a gift and rising in the Ranks of a guild that is obviously way off of its intended path just says that you moved farther away from the Rangers intended purpose at a fast rate pace.
So congratulations on being one of the fastest people to stray off course.

You say he was pushing the limits of what is acceptable? Those things may be borderline acceptable for a guild not at all resembling the Rangers. They are already leaps and bounds over what is acceptable for a Ranger.

What is saddening is the fact that you try to justify this, when it was already proven that it was very unacceptable and wrongful behavior for the guild mentioned.

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tessa
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#43 Post by tessa » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:50 pm

I won't get into the argument, but I would say I think it was pretty much an unwritten rule that the Rangers were never supposed to worship evil deities (which might be why it was made a rule shortly after this incident). The reason it was probably not implemented earlier was because no one expected a Ranger to actually try it.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#44 Post by Delmon » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:17 pm

Herst, I agree that the rangers direction of now are what the wizards and what the general playerbase seeks. I was, however, in my last post justifying the specific ranger's actions (and others) during that time, claiming that they were not common sense decisions, but 'intense' decisions fully acceptable to the rules of the time.

I understand what you are saying. You're saying the rangers of the last era werent "real" rangers, and even though there was change happening, "intervention" of crusaders had to be done. Right?
Also, mentioning earning a gift and rising in the Ranks of a guild that is obviously way off of its intended path just says that you moved farther away from the Rangers intended purpose at a fast rate pace.
So congratulations on being one of the fastest people to stray off course.
Nope, it meant that other people in the guild respected what was being done by the ranger. Yes, even backstabbing. So, was he a bad ranger in that time? I dont think so. He'd of been a bad ranger now, but only because of the new rules. The rules WERE very vague back then.


Here's one suggestion:
It seems, in relation to the subject, that it is imperative that people should understand the strict and unflinching "implications" of joining a specific guild,
-or- they should never be allowed in the guild. That will then save everyone from horrible instances of disagreement within guilds, guild direction problems, and nasty awful conflicts such as vow breaking crussies and backstabbing rangers.

Here's another:
Let some people squeeze in early. Face the problems of their silly, uncontrolled rp, and have fun.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#45 Post by ganandorf » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:23 pm

A ranger (group of people that help others, defend forests etc.) Definitely should never follow lillith (God of chaos). You cant believe in lilliths belief (spreading random chaos) and yet want to help others, defend the forests etc.
Its just plain wrong
Meow

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tessa
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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#46 Post by tessa » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:42 pm

Delmon wrote:So, was he a bad ranger in that time? I dont think so. He'd of been a bad ranger now, but only because of the new rules. The rules WERE very vague back then.
I'll say again, I think the rules were already there, but were unwritten at the time and considered common sense, and only actually bluntly declared when it was obvious that people were going off-track with the guild and doing things they shouldn't have been doing to begin with.

When wizard add new things like karma/faith loss when teaming with enemy worshippers, or penalties when teaming with guild enemies or etc, I don't think it's so much 'new' as 'We didn't code it thinking it wouldn't be a problem, but now that we see it is, we have to implement it'.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#47 Post by sun » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:34 am

This is a lot about guild leadership. You could say that it's wrong to turn lilithian as a ranger, but it's OK as long as it is RP'd. You could say that it's okay that the other rangers do not do anything until there's a blade by their throats because they are just alike. But the problem is that I think (as opposed to know) that the guild is supposed to be good, and what do we have then? A bunch of people who hi-jacked a guild and set it to their own ideas rather than the intention of the guild. Nobody really made a mistake, but the end result is that you have a guild with members who don't act like the guild concept was set.

So I think it is really, really important that the guild leader once in a while sync's up with the guild wizard or at least talk to him about the general ideas of the guild. It seems to me like the guild leaders have this responsibility. I hate the idea of a guild leader doing something completely different with his guild.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#48 Post by Delmon » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:23 am

You could say that it's wrong to turn lilithian as a ranger, but it's OK as long as it is RP'd.
That's kind of what I trying to say when I used the words "justify"
A bunch of people who hi-jacked a guild and set it to their own ideas rather than the intention of the guild.
Interesting, I think you've just stated what the wizards addressed to the leader at the time, hence the changes that the leader made. The unexpected came when the crusaders decided to take matters in their own hands.

Also, backstabbing, allowing thief tactics ect came long before, before even Alamar, so again, we were taught that this was ok and acceptable from the first rank (everyone of us). It wasnt common sense not to use these tactics.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#49 Post by Herst » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:33 am

I believe you are the only one in this thread that has said it was common sense to use them. You must have a very flawed definition of common sense.

Common sense does not mean it is okay is someone tells you it is okay. That is your way of defining it though.

The only thief tactic that should have been acceptable to use was the one that is similar to scout.

You can say you were taught they were acceptable all you want, but the fact is common sense dictates they were not acceptable. Once again you are just trying to justify your actions. No matter how you look at it, those actions were wrong, even if you were taught they were acceptable. The fact that other people (such as the Crusaders, wizards, some Rangers) instantly realized they were wrong, proves it was blatantly obvious and just common sense that Rangers should not be doing those things.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#50 Post by sun » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:24 am

Delmon wrote:Interesting, I think you've just stated what the wizards addressed to the leader at the time, hence the changes that the leader made. The unexpected came when the crusaders decided to take matters in their own hands.
Okay, it is good that the leader took the steps necessary, if that is what happened. I have no idea. I am not saying otherwise.

But I would not say it is unexpected.. rather on the contrary. In fact the essence of the Crusader history is to take justice in their own hands. I'd say they did exactly what they were supposed to do.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#51 Post by tessa » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:44 pm

Delmon wrote:Also, backstabbing, allowing thief tactics ect came long before, before even Alamar, so again, we were taught that this was ok and acceptable from the first rank (everyone of us). It wasnt common sense not to use these tactics.
Well, the mud has become a little bit more defined since the old days, too. A few years ago, darkelves were perfectly normal and accepted members of society, no different than halflings, humans, or what have you.

Nowadays, they're roleplayed as exactly what they're supposed to be in the GEAS world- abominations of darkness.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#52 Post by Delmon » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:30 pm

So is it wrong to join a guild and rp out of it's set rules with a character, even though accepting the consequences? Or should we, if we make a character to join a specific guild, rp them to be how they were "intented." In the rangers' case I suppose one character long ago convinced enough rangers to follow suit and rp out of the intent or norm or whatever, and therefore they all avoided consequences because they all rped the same, horrible, "against the intent." So as sun mentioned, it was alot about leadership.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#53 Post by Herst » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:36 pm

I think a better solution is that if you want to use thief skills and thief tactics, join a thieves guild or do not join a guild that is not found of thieves.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#54 Post by tessa » Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:41 pm

Delmon wrote:So is it wrong to join a guild and rp out of it's set rules with a character, even though accepting the consequences? Or should we, if we make a character to join a specific guild, rp them to be how they were "intented." In the rangers' case I suppose one character long ago convinced enough rangers to follow suit and rp out of the intent or norm or whatever, and therefore they all avoided consequences because they all rped the same, horrible, "against the intent." So as sun mentioned, it was alot about leadership.
I would say it's fine to RP against the concept of the guild if you're willing to face the consequences, but I think it's a losing battle to expect to be entitled a secure position in the guild while acting contrary to what is expected from a member.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#55 Post by Delmon » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:44 pm

it's a losing battle to expect to be entitled a secure position in the guild while acting contrary to what is expected from a member.
Agreed.

So, to get back on track of the original subject, let's make sure that prospective members of a guild understand the guild's intention before being allowed to join.

Then, once the character joins, if he or she goes against the guild, he or she can face the consequences of their choices against the guild and people can have fun. :)

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#56 Post by isengoo » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:29 am

And if a guild's path isn't clearly defined...make one yourself? Isn't that the whole point of the game?

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#57 Post by tessa » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:49 am

You should probably check with the wizards to make sure your ideas of development are liked/supported before just turning the guild into whatever you please. I think the Rangers have already been punted a few times for trying to go into directions that were not liked.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#58 Post by vurdijak » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:55 am

I played a ranger for a long time, a long time ago. This was before the citizens of a city would hate you for backstabbing. At that time backstabbing was not viewed in the same way it is now. Keep in mind that Delmon is right in a sense here, the changes in code in the game have also changed what is acceptable behavior for a good guild. That said, get ready for more changes, because this game is likely to have quite a few more (my opinion) and this could very well retroactively impact your guild choice (also an opinion). I think players should definitely attempt to play characters outside the norm of their guild. Crusaders who are too nice, Crusaders who are too mean, and Crusaders that are just right all add spice to the guild of the Crusaders.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#59 Post by gojin » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:44 am

isengoo wrote:And if a guild's path isn't clearly defined...make one yourself? Isn't that the whole point of the game?
This is a valid point and part of the reason I sympathize with those who played Rangers during that time.

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Re: Guilds & Accepting People

#60 Post by isengoo » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:55 am

tessa wrote:You should probably check with the wizards to make sure your ideas of development are liked/supported before just turning the guild into whatever you please. I think the Rangers have already been punted a few times for trying to go into directions that were not liked.
That sounds incredibly boring. If I wanted to play a scripted game, I would go out and buy one.

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