Backstab

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Herst
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Re: Backstab

#41 Post by Herst » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:23 am

I think they are the most powerful clergy in combat.

I have seen them rarely use more than "hfire target" though.
In fact, that is all they seem to use normally.
The occasional berserk as well.
Also, their weapons can be blessed to fight against undeads with.

They seem to have the ability to be "Warclerics" to me.

vurdijak
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Re: Backstab

#42 Post by vurdijak » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:21 am

Ok Herst, then everyone in Geas except you (and presumably Tessa) at that time was using 'weak' reasoning. Since I don't remember you (or Tessa) coming out against it back then, you are just as complicite in creating a world in which backstab was both honorable and brave according to Asral. Hopefully in the present and in the future, you will be kind enough to demonstrate to the entire playerbase where their reasoning is flawed when it is actually happening rather than several years later (when no one remembers you uttering a peep about it).

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Re: Backstab

#43 Post by Herst » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:26 am

Actually, I remember TRYING to approach Vurdijak and Alamar with the subject, along with the subject of defending Elvandar right after the Queen of Elvandar decided to implement scalping for the Rangers only.

The response I got before I could even get to the subject was "We don't have time to discuss defending Elvandar or anything else, we are off to collect scalps"

It was west of the Amward bridge. There was a large team of Asral clerics present as well. That was one of the reasons the subject was to be approached. Instead, people decided they would rather H@S instead of RP.

That also brings up another valid point. The Rangers were sucking the funds of Elvandar dry with their scalps, but yet refused to protect it at all. At the time the Sathonites were raising undeads and murdering people all over the realm of Elvandar, the Rangers were being paid to defend it, yet refused too.
Their logic was "We only get paid to kill greenskins, so that is all we will do"
The majority of the Rangers at the time were Asralites. I believe 4 or 5.
That also isn't very honourable and brave. In fact, its just sheer cowardice.

Soon after, The Queens support of the Rangers were removed. Vurdijak was a Packmaster then I believe.

I didn't want to bring this out on a public forum, but it seems it is called for now.

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Re: Backstab

#44 Post by Herst » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:40 am

luminier wrote:No one responded to my post, I feel so alone. I thought i brought up a good point and a valid question as well.
Yes, no one responded to my earlier post as well. I just got blamed for not making the obvious more obvious.

Maybe a color trigger added to the backstabb message that 3x the original text and flashes that says "STABBING SOMEONE IN THE BACK IS NOT BRAVE, WARNING WARNING WARNING" because it obviously isn't obvious enough.

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stilgar
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Re: Backstab

#45 Post by stilgar » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:28 pm

Herst wrote:Maybe a color trigger added to the backstabb message that 3x the original text and flashes that says "STABBING SOMEONE IN THE BACK IS NOT BRAVE, WARNING WARNING WARNING" because it obviously isn't obvious enough.
Hmm.. this brave not brave, coward thing is quite dangerous... this way:

about bravery...hunting someone who is alone and you are teamed is not brave, attacking an unarmed opponent is not brave, shooting form the distance is not brave, attacking anyone who is weaker is not brave....etc.
about cowardice.. in some other topic it was considered bad RP to ignore the possibilities of death and act like death has no meaning at all. Not going out to defend a city simply out of fear of death is just coward. What if its your 6th death in a row? You go out and die, thus ignore the death effects or stay and you're a coward?

I presume this kind of reasoning leads to nowhere, we can as well give it up :wink:

I think GEAS is by no means a high fantasy world where you can find barely find differences in the actions of a given side. Well, maybe goodies don't skin butcher and eat their enemies, but that is almost all. They hunt down, torture, kill and rob their "enemies" just as cruel and barbaric way as Sathos do. Main difference is they serve different deities. :wink:

However I can agree and accept the reasoning about rangers at a given time did not defend Elvandar the way they were intended to defend it. Can agree and accept they were sanctioned for it as an organisation.
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Herst
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Re: Backstab

#46 Post by Herst » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:33 pm

I can see and agree with your examples there.
There are exceptions to everything of course.

I do not see how you can justify sneaking behind someone, stabbing them in the back, running out of the room, waiting for them to bleed to death and then not calling it cowardly though.

That was the point of my post.

Someone said it was brave and honorable.
How?

No one has still answered that yet.

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stilgar
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Re: Backstab

#47 Post by stilgar » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:50 pm

Herst wrote:I do not see how you can justify sneaking behind someone, stabbing them in the back, running out of the room, waiting for them to bleed to death and then not calling it cowardly though.
Hmm.. I think you try to make us feel rangers should be chivalrous knights. No.. they should not be.. not by any means. They should be able to fulfill a given role. I see no difference in shooting someone from the distance and wait for them to bleed not even entering the room or backstab then leave...
Its just as "coward" by your standards as backstabbing :wink:
Not to mention using darkness as an Asral.. and we could go on like that with a LOT of abilities that make the life of characters in GEAS easier :wink:

Ever asked a crusader to justify capturing a LOT weaker being, just to torture it then kill at the end? Ever asked to justify a crusader who serves the God of Light and Order when they broke any "worldly" law? :lol: Come on... :wink:

Acts like this simply does not need any justification. You have the power to do so? Do it! Have the power to get away with it? Do it! Can kill or intimidate everyone into not questioning you? Do it! So.... simple :wink: And it works.. We all know it.. as well as words like "coward" "just" righteous" are nothing more than artificial reasons to justify a given action for ourself or for others while we don't have the power to get away with them anyways.

You need them? Use them! :wink: I personally don't need them.. I do what I think I should and won't ever try to justify them to anyone.. see the reasoning in the paragraph above :twisted:
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ganandorf
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Re: Backstab

#48 Post by ganandorf » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:13 pm

How can sneaking up behind someone and stabbing them in the back be brave?
Hmm, you're a lone, weak little elf, you see two towering giants in the next room, you sneak in, stab them in the back, then engage them in combat. Doesnt seem to cowardly to me, they are twice your size and theres two of them

The converse of this is being a weak little elf, walking in too the room with two giants and attacking them head on, this is brave in no way, in fact its just damn stupid

A mid option is being an elf, sneaking in, attacking your foes from the shadows using a spear or something, even though its technically not considered evil, i find that to be just as cowardly as backstabbing
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Herst
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Re: Backstab

#49 Post by Herst » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:18 pm

Stilgar,

We were talking about it being Asralish and brave, it had nothing to do with being a Ranger, although the Rangers involved were Asralite followers. If they use the same arguments as Stilgar, then they really couldn't follow their religion very well now, could they? That brings up another topic, how can someone claim to be a follower of a certain deity, when they violate the basic fundamental principles the deity is founded on?

If there is a Ranger that would rather backstab and use thief tactics instead of Ranger tactics, perhaps they should join the thieves. What is the point of being in a guild if you do not want to act a like a member of it?

The Rangers that were implied using it, were Asralites.

So once again, how does a god that values honor and bravery think that sneaking behind someone, stabbing them in the back, leaving, and waiting for them to bleed to death see that as brave.
Last edited by Herst on Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Backstab

#50 Post by ganandorf » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:20 pm

Who said you stab them and leave? You attack someone twice your size, and then stay and fight.
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Herst
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Re: Backstab

#51 Post by Herst » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:23 pm

Ganon,

When you sneak into a room and attack someone with a spear, etc......
You do not stab them in the back.
You attack them head on.

Try reading the message a bit more.

You all are ingoring the RP concept of it. The message is what the message is.
Backstabbing is an attack to the back. If you sneak in and gore someone, they just don't see you, but you are fighting them head on. If you do just gore them and leave the room, yes it is about the same except for the fact you didn't sneak up to their back, you tried to sneak around them completely to attack them. In fact, that could be considered even more brave than just sneaking behind them.

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Re: Backstab

#52 Post by Herst » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:28 pm

ganandorf wrote:Who said you stab them and leave? You attack someone twice your size, and then stay and fight.

Then scroll up and read.

That was the point of my messages. An Asralite said they would sneak in, backstab and leave and wait for the enemy to die of bloodloss.

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Delia
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Re: Backstab

#53 Post by Delia » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:16 pm

Backstabbing is an attack to the back. If you sneak in and gore someone, they just don't see you, but you are fighting them head on. If you do just gore them and leave the room, yes it is about the same except for the fact you didn't sneak up to their back, you tried to sneak around them completely to attack them. In fact, that could be considered even more brave than just sneaking behind them.
The problem with hiding and attacking is that nothing is implied. Sure you can assume that you come at 'em head on like the brave warrior should but in reality...how can you tell? The only difference in my mind is a string of code. You can hide, wait and ambush someone with a dagger using a backstab or, lacking backstab SKILL you can just normally poke them with a dagger to the general upper area of the body. Witnessing such an act would really make no difference for the onlooker be the attack performed with the backstab SKILL or not. There is no hard law that an assassin always strikes from behind. If the act of assassination/just being a mean cowardly backstabber is defined by direction alone...something is wrong IMO.

A general sneak attack skill/ability might work bit better as backstab in itself has no consensus at all. Thieves should retain/get(preferably a thief exclusive) assassin skill.
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Re: Backstab

#54 Post by Olrane » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:05 pm

Basically the problem here is that certain players don't accept non-devout interpretations of Geas religions. An Asralite Ranger elf is not a Warcleric, and he absolutely might find (and certainly not wrongly so!) that using a backstab to make giants a manageable target is a brave act. After all, they ARE giants, or undead, or whatever that the elf is trying to take down.

I personally am sick of the idea that a character who has "You worship X god" must be a zealot. Yes, that character maybe should fear the judgment of their god, but these characters never pretended to be exemplars of that god.

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Re: Backstab

#55 Post by Herst » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:16 pm

Olrane wrote:
I personally am sick of the idea that a character who has "You worship X god" must be a zealot. Yes, that character maybe should fear the judgment of their god, but these characters never pretended to be exemplars of that god.
I am personally sick of people who ignore the basic fundamentals the mud was coded on.

I believe it as black and white as if you follow a god who values honor and bravery, you shouldn't use a cowardly attack. In fact, you probably shouldn't be sneaking around and attacking an opponent while hidden either. Especially if your god will value your heroic death much more than he would value your victory over an enemy in a cowardly way. That part is basic and fundamental. After that point it can be as gray as you like.

As for an Asralite elf Ranger is not a warcleric, they are still a follower of Asral. They are not really very compatible. Some Asrals aspects are (in no specific order) war, death, destruction. Those principles aren't the most compatible with the Ranger lifestyle. Especially considering Evren is the goddess of nature, and a minor enemy to Asral.

So, the point can also be made that Rangers hide and sneak and attack enemies unseen sometimes. I am sure Asral doesn't really value that very much. In fact, it may possibly disgust him.

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Re: Backstab

#56 Post by isengoo » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:21 pm

>help asral
NAME
asral - god of war

SYNOPSIS
no command, only information

DESCRIPTION
Asral is a neutral god. His domains include war and
death. He is the patron of the humans who abandoned
Sathonys.

The aspects of Asral:
Main aspects: war
Major aspects: death
Minor aspects: fire & air & destruction

Someone please tell me where it says 'honour' in there. AFAIK it's up to interpretation.

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Re: Backstab

#57 Post by Olrane » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:26 pm

Black and white roleplay is boring.

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Re: Backstab

#58 Post by vurdijak » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:26 pm

Whats AFAIK mean?

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Re: Backstab

#59 Post by isengoo » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:31 pm

As far as I know

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Re: Backstab

#60 Post by Drake » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:17 pm

Ok people, enough is enough.

Bad roleplay is an issue which gets reported to me through the game if you believe you come across it. And the decision of if it is or is not is mine and Admins to make, no one elses.

Anyone can roleplay what they want within the framework of the game world. If they end up butting heads with the consequences of those choices, that is their consequence to deal with.

As an example, being a bad xxxxx guild member as defined by the purpose of xxxxx guild is just that, a bad member of xxxxx guild. Is it bad roleplay by the player? No, its just a bad xxxxx guild member. It's up to the other members of xxxxx guild to deal with them, or not if they so choose. If they all end up butting heads against xxxxx guild as a whole for the choice not to, then that is the consequence for their choice.

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