Backstab

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luminier
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Re: Backstab

#21 Post by luminier » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:51 pm

the past is the past. the present is what we are dealing with.

In real life, me as myself, i would use backstabbing tactics against evil people in a heart beat. it just makes sense to beat the evil any way you can. and it makes MORE sense if it is efficient.

however, as luminier, I do see (and have to see) many problems with it. IG as drake said, it is seen as evil by townspeople and dishonorable. Luminier argues that the very though of attacking someone from the dark or sneaking up behind them is very dishonourable as most of his enemies do that constantly. the satanic smile thing is just the icing on the cake, and as drake suggested it was meant as a HELLO THIS IS EVIL, but apparently alot of people missed out on the hint. The long and short of this back stab thing, is that it is evil and that is how it should be roleplayed.

Now, Delia mentioned a spear or sword in the back. I agree, when one hides in the shadows and gores the crap out of somebody as a starting attack it is very similiar to backstabbing them. However one key difference is that the attack does not come from behind like a dirty slime ball theif/satho/lilith (again using luminier's mentality here). A gore in my view means u hope out of the shadows and run up at them point blank stab them in the chest, twist and rip out. thats brutal, thats honorable, that is skillful and that's what needs to be roleplayed there.
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sun
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Re: Backstab

#22 Post by sun » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:58 pm

luminier wrote:the past is the past. the present is what we are dealing with.
Yeah. Who ever learned anything from history?
luminier wrote:A gore in my view means u hope out of the shadows and run up at them point blank stab them in the chest, twist and rip out. thats brutal, thats honorable, that is skillful and that's what needs to be roleplayed there.
If you mean attacking from hidden, I'll buy it as long as Luminier gets a cap on his skill....

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Re: Backstab

#23 Post by Delmon » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:05 pm

Well, here's an explaination of the coded "evil grin.":

You could think of the satanic smile as being the peak of a skillful encounter evading an enemy and putting a knife in their back.

It's the culmination of skill and precision, and the backstabber is grinning to themselves as they realize their success. Whenever Delmon's gore or hit something strong with a crit or whatever I like to make Delmon laugh, chuckle, or cackle. It's not because Delmon's evil, but because he's delighted to see his skill overpowering a foe. With backstabbing, a character is honoring his victim's ability of awareness, and the evil grin is just the character's expression of delight as he/she overpower's the victim's awareness.

In other words yeah, its brutal, its honorable, its skillful and its what needs to be roleplayed there. :D

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Re: Backstab

#24 Post by isengoo » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:28 pm

I agree with some things said in this thread, and disagree with others. I think the core point I wanted to make was that I can't see a backstab as intrinsically evil. Yes, there are certainly intrinsically evil things (eating humans, raising undeads, etc) but I can't for the life of me see a knife going in someone's back - who is assumed to be your enemy, and the enemy of your god - as intrinsically evil.

It is also not intrinsically good, either. Depending on which god you follow, and the god of whoever you are backstabbing, I can see a multitude of options for karma going up or down or not doing anything. Reputation would always go down (by a lot, in my eyes), which I feel is a big enough malus attached to the skill so to make it not imbalanced. But there is certainly a difference between karma and reputation, which I think must be taken into account with this skill.

As it stands, however, I feel like it just doesn't fit.

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Re: Backstab

#25 Post by vurdijak » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:51 pm

I don't remember seeing anything close to what you described Herst, as far as Asrals telling others not to backstab. In fact, I remember a much different scenario. The opposite, in fact. I remember asking about it and being told it was perfectly fine, since Asral was the god of war and would condone any tactic that would make his followers stronger in battle. Also I already mentioned that Asral and Taniel clergy stood by and virtually applauded while I destroyed with it. Ranger packmasters, who incidentally sometimes worshiped gods other than Asral (good gods) encouraged and tried their hardest to get the younger rangers to learn backstab. At any rate, if you knew that Asral wouldn't like it, then your the first I've heard of.

As for Sun's remark regarding the past, I am in agreement with him that the past should be remembered. What should be remembered about it, is that Geas in that respect had some improving to do. As is usually the case with Geas, it improved.

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Re: Backstab

#26 Post by luminier » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:06 pm

sun wrote:Yeah. Who ever learned anything from history?

If you mean attacking from hidden, I'll buy it as long as Luminier gets a cap on his skill....
Thats my point we -did- learn from history. We learned that backstabbing isn't something to be commonly accepted IG it is to be shunned as a horrible skill reserved for the lowest of the low and the truly damned souls. Your common ranger and common asral should not be backstabbing. Granted if you want your character to do so, go ahead, but don't whine about the repercussions, know what you enter into.

Why should a cap be put on impale?
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Re: Backstab

#27 Post by Delmon » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:24 pm

lol, I was under the impression backstabbing was fine... until the new reputation system came into being.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=666&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Here's more on backstabbing and reputation
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=537

There's actually alot more references to backstabbing throughout the forum.

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Re: Backstab

#28 Post by isengoo » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:16 pm

tessa wrote:I think it's safe to say that most if not all people that use backstab do it because it's an overpowered move that can put half the fight out of anything it hits, and can easily be repeated in succession against NPCs.
Then why not weaken backstab slightly? Less incentive to abuse it.

Also, I disagree with the idea that intent can be formed from a single ambiguous line of an emote. It also needs to take account of who the action is performed on, and by whom it is performed, and then general consensus formed by players towards the use of the ability.

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Re: Backstab

#29 Post by luminier » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:27 pm

I dunno Isengoo, satan is satan in my book. Nothing ambiguous about that.
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tessa
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Re: Backstab

#30 Post by tessa » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:32 pm

Delmon wrote:Well, here's an explaination of the coded "evil grin."
I don't think you're going to be able to convince anyone that sadism is an admirable trait.
At any rate, if you knew that Asral wouldn't like it, then your the first I've heard of.
Asral is the god of honor and bravery. There's nothing valorous about sneaking up behind someone and killing them with a knife to the spine or neck like a common thug.
Then why not weaken backstab slightly? Less incentive to abuse it.
I would be happy to see backstab nerfed to the point that it wasn't any more powerful than other combat specials.
It also needs to take account of who the action is performed on, and by whom it is performed, and then general consensus formed by players towards the use of the ability.
I find this a bit interesting to hear considering you earlier said people should be turned to worship whatever other players make them worship. So why shouldn't the code make you do whatever it wants you to?

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Re: Backstab

#31 Post by vurdijak » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:10 am

This is referring to Tessa's second quote above. You are right that our notion of honor and bravery says that backstabbing is not brave or honorable. Our notion however, differs with the widely accepted notion at that time in Geas, when all people accepted backstabbing as perfectly fine as a battle tactic. It was both honorable and brave, and justified IC with lines such as 'as long as its used against orcs' or 'Asral is pleased with those who are victorious in battle even if that strategy is used' (not exact quotes). Hell, does anyone else remember the days when the new players would eagerly wait for the day when they would watch the older players backstab? They would learn the tactic from sneaking into a 'room' behind their friends, watching them backstab, and immediately begin using it themselves. I'm glad its changed now, but lets not allow ourselves to forget what life as a Geasian was really like at that time.

And for the record, this practice was widespread among players who followed every single deity.

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Re: Backstab

#32 Post by Herst » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:19 am

Ok, if Asral is the god of honor and bravery......how can you justify a cowardly sneak attack to someones back?

It doesn't matter if it is accepted or not. That has nothing to do with it.
You can justify anything if you want, but I think using the excuse "everyone else thought it was alright" is pretty weak.
I am just curious how it was justified because:

1) It is an attack to someones back, when they are not looking.
2) It can kill someone before they have the chance to retaliate.

Tell me how those things are honorable and brave like you said. They are exactly the opposite of honorable and brave.

By this logic Asral is also pleased when you find someone meditating and naked and unwielding after they just died, and 3 people kill them again without them having a chance to stand up. Simply because, you were victorious in combat. I think even a noobie to GEAS would realize this is just some weak excuse to use a very powerful skill that someone of your religion shouldn't be using. I think it is obvious at least.

I have used the skill as well, I will not deny that.

Of course I never tried to justify it with anything mentioned above. I admitted that it was cowardly, sadistic and dishonorable. In fact, when I was learning it, that is how I referred to it.

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tessa
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Re: Backstab

#33 Post by tessa » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:28 am

vurdijak wrote:Our notion however, differs with the widely accepted notion at that time in Geas, when all people accepted backstabbing as perfectly fine as a battle tactic. It was both honorable and brave, and justified IC with lines such as 'as long as its used against orcs' or 'Asral is pleased with those who are victorious in battle even if that strategy is used' (not exact quotes).
The thing here, is just because it was accepted by the playerbase, doesn't mean it was accepted by the GEAS world, npcs and all included.

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Re: Backstab

#34 Post by isengoo » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:36 am

Except it was, because none of those people had anything to say about it. Now that they do, their definition seems misleading.

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Re: Backstab

#35 Post by tessa » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:09 am

Few of them have anything to say about Sathonites, Lilithians, murderers, thieves, darkelves, undeads, ghouls, or goblinoids, should we consider those acceptable too?

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Re: Backstab

#36 Post by luminier » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:13 am

No one responded to my post, I feel so alone. I thought i brought up a good point and a valid question as well.
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Re: Backstab

#37 Post by isengoo » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:32 am

tessa wrote:Few of them have anything to say about Sathonites, Lilithians, murderers, thieves, darkelves, undeads, ghouls, or goblinoids, should we consider those acceptable too?
Don't act so naive. You are well aware of the times when evils walked the streets of Arborea and Elvandar.

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Re: Backstab

#38 Post by luminier » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:42 am

Alright... so that was -then- this is -now-. The games changed. For the better. I don't see what the hang up is on backstab. At this rate u might as well just remove it completely if it's gonna be this much of a pain in the ass.

obviously thats stupid, and we need not be treated like children.

but the game has changed and we shouldn't deal with how the game was, but how it is. Yes the past is important, if anyone read my reply to Sun, I specifically said that the past is what we have evloved from so obviously it's important.

Anyways, backstab should be treated properly. Anyone can use it. However you must accept what comes with using the skill. If you want Crusaders sitting beside you as you kill mods with backstab, thats your business, use it. If you want to do one of the many other methods of attacking that aren't bad in the eyes of the good side, then do that.

Thats the point of the mud. Do whatever the hell it is you want. And roleplay the GD consequences. End of Story.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

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Re: Backstab

#39 Post by tessa » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:22 am

isengoo wrote:Don't act so naive. You are well aware of the times when evils walked the streets of Arborea and Elvandar.
Considering darkelves used to be accepted members of society, Sathonite priests used to hang out with people at the crossing, and most everyone practiced backstabbing at some points in time amongst other things, I disagree.

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Re: Backstab

#40 Post by stilgar » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:42 am

This argument is pointless...

Why so? Simple.. maiming, cutting of limbs, burning people alive etc. is punishment not a torture. Scalping is legal. Killing things is not a crime unless you kill the right things. :wink:
Backstab is the same. It is determined by code. Can argue about it, try to set up ideals ICly or OOCly as much as you ike but pointless, won't change much. You cannot judge by any ideals as its just as easy to bring up an opposing opinion that sounds just as logical.
I simply find it weak to say "a Taniel cleric or an Asral cleric should live by an ideal and avoid doing this or that... and its a poor RP to do things then try to set up an IC reason to do so..." I have seen Taniel, Asral and Satho clerics as well using shaolin moves, sneaking, swearing, talking and acting just like a criminal, burning a city, torture people, robbing lockers, etc. They were and remained in power, no matter Taniel or Asral or Sathonys "liked" or "disliked" their actions. Up to the point they started to kill their own faction or befriend their "coded enemies" they were just fine.

If its about ideals, and game balance, You can as well ask how could that happen that a Warcleric(sic!) is far weaker when it comes to action, then a Crusader?. Why do I say so? Their survivability is quite poor if you ask me, for exaple they are close to useless against undead as can't control bleeding, not to mention: poison and/or plague. They meet it and they're almost done. Some testing or re-thinking in that matter would be nice IMO :wink: If its already about game logic.... (either stop calling them a warcleric or re-think, recode as the current IC happenings either justify my words or indicate they simply don't know or play their abilities poorly)

That is why I think this argument is pointless. Simply accept it was coded like that, RP around it and sooner or later it will change if it really hurts (as it happened with backstab, too much people running around with that powerful ability) or won't if it does not hurt that much. :wink:
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