Roleplaying Issues

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Damanta
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#21 Post by Damanta » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:38 am

Jalil wrote:[I believe what Isengoo, (and please correct me if I am wrong Isengoo), was trying to say there is that there is a pervasive trend within Geas that most of the major players here are guilty of (myself included). When someone invests hundreds of days of game time into their character it seems to be a natural thing for the player to invest a lot of themselves into their character as well, by this I mean that a player's RL reactions to situations or their RL traits and quirks begin to manifest within their character(s). This would not actually be considered "roleplaying".
I am extremely guilty of this. Damanta is an extension of who I am as a person, like who I would be if his background and setting were mine. But I feel that as things happen to Damanta he grows, and doesn't always grow the same way that I do. Damanta was my first character in an RPG, a D&D game, years and years ago. I still play him to this day because he feels natural. I don't think its bad role play because of the way he adapts to the setting/situations he's in.

I have in the past very successfully played alts with personalities that aren't like mine, but none of them have the same "at home" feeling that Damanta does.

But going back to another point earlier in the thread I would like to see the "newbie guide" book in the inn's cupboard include the fact that butchering gremlins, nibblers, that sort of thing is immoral. Just a thought.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#22 Post by luminier » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:14 am

Jalil wrote:
I believe what Isengoo, (and please correct ..... quote continued earlier
I concede that there was a time when I did treat Luminier as an extension of myself. But now I hardly think thats the case. If anything im guilty of roleplaying with Luminier's mindset too heavily. In real life I couldn't give a damn if someone butchered corpses IG, but obviously Luminier has to care. In real life I am usually pretty modest and don't like it when I receive any kind of praise, but Luminier is a leader of a guild and I roleplay him having a huge ego because hes technically done more in 15 IC years than I couldve in 15 OOC years. And people who know me in real life know I don't have a huge ego like Luminier but obviously I am guilty of having -some- pride.

If thats what Isengoo meant, then I -really- don't understand.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#23 Post by Delia » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:28 pm

Since this thread began with Trystan and this message is on a public(shao)board I feel it is better to post it here for closer inspection. Hopefully there is something to be learned here.

Monk Rules, Poor Roleplay, and general disgust (by Trystan on the shao OOC-board)
Alright you win I quit whatever.....really some players are simply allowed to use the monk specials no harm no foul? I've never seen a mud so blatant about its preference in player....never...I refuse to play a character who seems to have the sole purpose of trying to be a meek little peasant so he doesn't get burned to death by the elitist popular group here. How ridiculous this roleplay is. It's not a group of people playing together here its the elite group playing the leadership and who they like and then everyone else just shutting the fuck up and bowing their heads and moving on. You ever wonder why the numbers are so low? Your player base treats people like absolute garbage the poor english makes sure every newbie screws up on arrival and luckily there's always a bored and useless guild to be right there to punish them and hide away when a bad guy comes around because "its useless to die" pathetic and you should be ashamed if you ever wonder why this mud has low numbers. So have fun with your 10 regular players whatever I'm out. Thanks Mogwai and Kaseo for being so cool and keeping me around for the good times here

I'll begin to dissect this from my part...

Shao specials - many specials are learnable by watching, half of the shao moves included. I understand the feel for the need to "Punish" people for using guild "secrets" but there are already rules created by the players within the game for transgressions. Sure it can get tricky when a major good guild adopts a shao-trained character but what can you do? Just go heartlessly killing the said character or try to punish him/her no matter what or think about the consequences from leadership perspective(or just from stubborn refusal to commit murder)?

Elitist groups and leadership - I really cannot say as I feel Delia pretty much belongs into this described group. How do you others see this? I atleast try to help newbies as much as RP allows and actively try use the newbie-line to guide people when they ask, sometimes even being bit too pushy in guiding them towards a greater understanding of the game. But as for people just bowing silently and moving on...I think that sometimes is the right action, meaning, If I were an average Joe from Arborea, I'd think twice before spitting on Luminier's face, or any of the tshahark's for that matter.

Poor english - Many of us do not speak english as the primary language. While there are obvious and blatant errors from time to time when it comes to using the language, I think we manage a decent job in overall. Personally, I cannot make any great claims about my linguistic talents, I have online dictionary open whenever I play. Just in case. Sometimes even a translator should my brain happen to freeze up mid-play.

Treating people like garbage - This has been discussed and there is a very, very fine line here which is hard to notice. Should other CHARACTERS see your CHARACTER as garbage, this said CHARACTER will likely be treated as one. All in all I think Forostar it too lenient, nice and forgiving but as I said the line is nearly invisible for all parties involved.

"It's useless to die" as an excuse for fleeing the bad guys - Dying is a bitch and unpleasant. Of course one could throw her/himself against the proverbial wall of spears a thousand times but...I think there are quite many threads about this issue as it is.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#24 Post by matusalem » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:55 pm

Most games, it would seem to me, have a very lackadaisical approach to conflicting ethos. A lot of new players coming from these games, I don't believe, are prepared for the more intuitive and realistic approach this game takes. (I myself was probably guilty of it when I first started.) And what I mean by this, is that in a lot of other games is sit around chit chat with those that are your enemy, then occasionally beat the tar out of one another in the middle of a city. This very coke versus pepsi mentality doesn't always jive well. I think people have been very forgiving of new players having these issues. (I think a big problem comes into play when you explain it to them, and they tell you you're wrong. Nibblers wear clothing and use tools; big hint: they're humanoid.) You don't play chess with checker's rules, and for some people this seems to be a difficult concept.

As for ten regular players, this is simply a straw man argument. It's an low balled number for starters, and many games out there would kill for ten people online consistently.

Another thing that I would like to point out in all this, is that we got one player trying to tell other players how they're to roleplay their character. This is quite different from a character telling another character how to behave. Your character told my character how to behave... that's not how you're suppose to play! Kind of snerty. You cannot change the rules everyone else has been playing by for all this time because you don't like them.

And finally... it's a game... have fun. It's not as serious as all this.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#25 Post by Kaseo » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:25 pm

The poor english part I believe was referring to some of the less obvious commands. He expressed his annoyance when I told him the syntax for getting the scrag out. And I think he was having trouble reading a note for a report he sent or some such.
The elitist groups part I believe he was talking about how nobody seems to go against the Crusaders or Taniel Clerics. I think the reason why is fairly obvious, that being that they're quite powerful and to mess with them is not the best idea. While you can be resurrected, yes, I really doubt dying would be very pleasant anyway if you had to actually experience it. If this were possible in real life I bet most people would still avoid dying when possible.

I think Matusalem was right when he said that a lot of people aren't ready for the more realistic approach Geas has. I personally think that's one of the things that makes Geas awesome, though.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#26 Post by rafael » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:20 am

....and luckily there's always a bored and useless guild to be right there to punish them and hide away when a bad guy comes around because "its useless to die" pathetic and you should be ashamed if you ever wonder why this mud has low numbers....
As someone who roleplays a character who people might think comes close to a 'meek little peasant' and tries quite vehemently to avoid death, I must say it's not unenjoyable, though I admit it's not for everyone, but I would hardly think it's forced upon the players.

I play my character rather cautiously, and these rules has served him rather well. But it's part of his personality. I don't think he should expect the gods to ressurect him, and rather might have reasons to think the contrary.

Sure you can play a hot-head and thrive in conflict but geas has wonderful ways to remind you of your place in the world - in most of the cases I think it's rather how the world works and not unsportsmanly and clique-ish behaviour from the players, though I've heard it to be the case at times.

Ceirtain groups in the game are very powerful and it would be lunacy in game to oppose them head on unless you have a plan, are a remarkable individual and are ok with any backlash that you might reasonably expect in game.

In the case of things like new players not knowing certain things like the fact that practicing cannibalism, like any depraved action, most likely puts an almost permanent black spot on your record and that certain people ought to be feared and that you should not stick around to let them capture your character and have it go through horrible traumatic hellish experiences - (which some players like Delmon might enjoy (?)- I think I would have been ok if the roleplay was good), I try to do my part and instill the players I interact with a healthy sense of fear and what should be the normal reaction of anyone who's not a formindable hero in game. Someone has to tell the youths in game to stay in the city and to run like hell if they ever see a dark elf or a hooded individual, spread the news of attacks around medieval style and put up notes in the board warning against cannibals, and so on.

(In passing, I thought Lumi's note on the topic in the arborean to be somewhat borderline OOC, but maybe that's just me. But from what I understand it if it was causing OOC problems.)

I had some fun playing an ignorant youth during my first days of geas and picked things up as I went along - indeed, it's much harder to play someone who's supposed to be knowledgeable - but I can understand how someone who wants to get into the action pretty quickly could be bogged down by geas' IC do's and don'ts and to unwittingly roleplay his or her character into a very uncomfortable position.

Though, returning to the quote up there I'm not sure if it refers to characters like mine who are not in an OCC guild or to guild members.

I'm not sure if the roleplay police out there has as heavy hand as it had at some points, though actually I seem to think things are more lax. There's certainly much more OOC chat these days. Some guilds require certain behavior or at least some characters expect it and it can be quite frustrating to want to roleplay a character a certain way and to find that his or her doors have been closed down and that it does not seem to be very viable. Indeed, this is not Equal Opportunity Mud, though I do try my best to be fair with the very little power I have and not ruin character concepts for others for the sake of consitent roleplay on my part. So I do tone it down a little when I think what my character would impact the fun of other players and frustrate them.

Balancing roleplay and its demand and keeping the game fun for others can require some effort. Of course, some things simply don't fly in geas and indeed to get it like this there has been code put in place to enforce it when in theory the players ought to have done it themselves. (E.g., the goodies and baddies happily sitting with each other at the marketplace syndrome.)

All in all I hope It was not twinkish actions that ruined your enjoyment, but if "chatters" like me and IC roleplay fallout drove this char away, I think it would be useful to isolate the elements that are felt to be problematic. Though, all in all, I'm of the mentality that better roleplay equates to a better game. The thicker the in game roleplay atmosphere, the more newbies get to breathe it in, the less (unwelcome) problems I would hope would arise.
I mean, if there's no talk or acknowledgement that something is bad and then someone hacks off your head for it or another char blocks your guild advancement "because it's common knowledge" then we have a problem, even if it would seem to be common sense in the game world. People with other mud backgrounds will have a problem as there is such a thing as un-written game etiquette that can vary greatly. In general I feel like the atmosphere in geas is for the most part good, others may feel differently.

As for roleplay; sure it is a pain to go out of the guild halls onto the street to empty a waterskin, but what if someone's watching? How will you explain it? You might run into someone in the street too. : }

P.S. I thank all satho players for excerting discretion and staying out of cities and letting them be somewhat of a safe haven for poor defenseless characters like mine most of the time. If it's code that's keeping them away, then thank you wizzies for coding functional guards. ; )
Last edited by rafael on Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#27 Post by Delmon » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:38 am

hmm

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#28 Post by rafael » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:57 am

Delmon wrote:hmm
Just hmm? I mentioned your name because you commented in another post that it was some of those more colorful experiences that kept you coming back to the game in the early days. In my case it was a few character's roleplay. Most are sadly gone : - \ Though I must admit that Rafael has a very small sandbox. He generally goes out of his way to avoid trouble.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#29 Post by Delia » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:59 am

If it stands upright, has arms and legs and a head, it's a humanoid.

Unless you cheat and make a golem.
The greatest difference is that you cannot butcher a golem, they do it to YOU.
P.S. I thank all satho players for excerting discretion and staying out of cities and letting them be somewhat of a safe haven for poor defenseless characters like mine most of the time. If it's code that's keeping them away, then thank you wizzies for coding functional guards. ; )
I remember when sathos could chase you right through the city or wherever you went by just being a darkelf and using the 'darkness' miracle, a superb combo if I've ever seen one.

The most memorable encounters with the sathos have been non-combat ones. Very thrilling and atmospheric. I recall Delia once being very bad shape, bleeding from plague and desperately camping and cooking a potion for herself when during the dark night a gruesome masked human comes strolling in...very fun :D
[I believe what Isengoo, (and please correct me if I am wrong Isengoo), was trying to say there is that there is a pervasive trend within Geas that most of the major players here are guilty of (myself included). When someone invests hundreds of days of game time into their character it seems to be a natural thing for the player to invest a lot of themselves into their character as well, by this I mean that a player's RL reactions to situations or their RL traits and quirks begin to manifest within their character(s). This would not actually be considered "roleplaying".
In a way this cannot be avoided, I know it happens to me as well. Sometimes this may even result in some spontaneous and "unrealistic" character development as you as a player try to shrug some of the bits of yourself from your character.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#30 Post by Delmon » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:04 pm

sorry rafael. cant post late night or im in trouble. anyways, I do like giving a good fight, losing or winning, but either way not dying. those situations brought me back. my victories kept me playing delmon, my failures brought out some other characters.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#31 Post by luminier » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:24 pm

(In passing, I thought Lumi's note on the topic in the arborean to be somewhat borderline OOC, but maybe that's just me. But from what I understand it if it was causing OOC problems.)
It was causing IC problems as well. Luminier and Matusalem were both peeved at the sheer number of people doing this.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#32 Post by rafael » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:36 pm

luminier wrote:
(In passing, I thought Lumi's note on the topic in the arborean to be somewhat borderline OOC, but maybe that's just me. But from what I understand it if it was causing OOC problems.)
It was causing IC problems as well. Luminier and Matusalem were both peeved at the sheer number of people doing this.
* starts imagining the mass newbie burning-at-the-cross event that never was. Yeah, it was getting to be pretty bad. Not saying the note was unwarranted, it just read like a note to newbies. :) Would have personally liked to see more fire and brimstone and outrage. :}

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#33 Post by luminier » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:47 pm

Heh, Luminier isn't like that. He is solemn to the last.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#34 Post by Jalil » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:57 pm

In a way this cannot be avoided, I know it happens to me as well. Sometimes this may even result in some spontaneous and "unrealistic" character development as you as a player try to shrug some of the bits of yourself from your character.

In a way yes, it seems to happen with successful main characters, was my point. And I wasn't looking down on playing that way. I guess after so many years of roleplaying I find myself having more fun if the character isn't just an extension of myself, rather a completely separate entity, with thoughts, feelings and reactions that would be almost alien to me in RL.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#35 Post by Desiderea » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:15 pm

rafael wrote:
Sure you can play a hot-head and thrive in conflict but geas has wonderful ways to remind you of your place in the world - in most of the cases I think it's rather how the world works and not unsportsmanly and clique-ish behaviour from the players, though I've heard it to be the case at times.

Ceirtain groups in the game are very powerful and it would be lunacy in game to oppose them head on unless you have a plan, are a remarkable individual and are ok with any backlash that you might reasonably expect in game.

...

I had some fun playing an ignorant youth during my first days of geas and picked things up as I went along - indeed, it's much harder to play someone who's supposed to be knowledgeable - but I can understand how someone who wants to get into the action pretty quickly could be bogged down by geas' IC do's and don'ts and to unwittingly roleplay his or her character into a very uncomfortable position.
I actually had created another character to begin with, with the loose intention of being an elven druid, then decided that, given my ooc lack of knowledge and the fact that you start as a wee weakling with minimal skills, it might be a better idea to start off as a child character who wouldn't have a lot of skills or knowledge of the world. That way I could actually learn things as my character learned them and wouldn't feel so dumb asking questions that most people would probably know.

It is rather hard to start off and get right into the middle of things. And for those with a certain character idea in mind, they might find it difficult when their rp clashes with some of the established characters and ideologies of the world. Thus far, I've found most people to be helpful. I know Desi is a rather meek and passive character though, so she hasn't run into much trouble.

I'd love to play a less-than-noble character with a grudge against the good folks, but firstly, I don't think I have enough knowledge of the world (to know where to hide!), and I'm not really sure how such a character would be received. Of course, I would know better than to openly challenge someone when I can barely wield a sword... But, would my character be treated with suspicion? If I do earn the ire of the Crusaders or somesuch, am I essentially screwed?

It seems there is a general leaning towards good characters. Apart from Sathonites, I'm not really sure what other evil people are out there. And, like Luminier said in another thread, pretty much every guild would team up to fight a Sathonite. I guess I'd like to see some more variety. Some more neutral or neutral-evil options. That way it isn't so much just good vs. evil, but there are more shades of grey in there.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#36 Post by matusalem » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:29 pm

As for neutrality and variants on the types of evil characters played, there have been as much in the past. The current trends or what not going on in the Forostar society though are currently leaning away from that. That's not to say the players, especially with a healthy influx of new characters, couldn't swing current social mores into another direction. For most of my play, this get-a-long mentality we're currently in has not been the norm.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#37 Post by isengoo » Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:43 am

I personally think that every character should have several major flaws which can be exploited against the POs "ideal action". For instance, I'd like there to be an instance where, let's say, Luminier (just an example, it could be any good guy) is about to kill some Sathonyte, but the Sathonyte begs for mercy and in return for his escape, gives Luminier something available in game he values above his ideals. This, to me, would be fantastic roleplay, as every real person is flawed in some way which will ultimately take precedent over their idealistic mindset.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#38 Post by luminier » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:31 am

isengoo wrote:I personally think that every character should have several major flaws which can be exploited against the POs "ideal action". For instance, I'd like there to be an instance where, let's say, Luminier (just an example, it could be any good guy) is about to kill some Sathonyte, but the Sathonyte begs for mercy and in return for his escape, gives Luminier something available in game he values above his ideals. This, to me, would be fantastic roleplay, as every real person is flawed in some way which will ultimately take precedent over their idealistic mindset.
I don't -quite- know if Luminier is the best example for that. Not only does Luminier have to act a certain way just because he has been taught certain ideals form his mentors, and gotten his ass handed to him by his superiors for not acting a certain way, he is a role model which makes him choose the best path, and he is also basically the "goto guy"(for lack of a better phrase) for Taniel and Evren. (Whew run-on sentence)

But perhaps a goody with weaker ideals... It is certainly a way to roleplay a situation, but I wouldn't say it is either horrible or fantastic.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#39 Post by caelia » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:08 pm

I'll have to disagree with the statement that "every person is flawed in some way which will ultimately take precedent over their idealistic mindset."

It is true that people have flaws, but overcoming these flaws is a very large part of one's day-to-day life. Nor should it be the case that where these flaws are present, everybody knows about them. Caelia has some rare unguarded moments where she discusses one of her own, but I would say that hiding them from most characters -is- good roleplay. Since I spend as much time with Luminier as just about anyone, I would say that he does pretty much the same things - and his flaws, to the extent that they exist, are not necessarily everyone's business.

Flaws are relative to one's perspective, too. Caelia can simply be who she is, but there are some who will find her to be too stand-offish, too rigid, or too idealistic. The Sathonites -do- exploit her flaws when they accuse her and other Tanielites of hypocrisy, because this charge would concern us if it were true - or when they kidnap people, because Taniel clerics tend to value others' live far more than they do, so this gives them leverage.

Also, people (especially ones with important titles) are expected to behave in a certain way in public out of respect both for their office and for social convention. While people generally get to see "Luminier the Crusader", only a few should really get to know "Luminier the person", because, in the course of his work, it wouldn't do to get too chummy just any old person, because he may have to hunt them some day. Related to this, there are people out there who value -nothing- above their ideals, and I think a good number of these people would be found in the real-life Crusade or in various religious orders - and the idea that people (and certainly, their god) will hold them accountable for their actions only encourages them to act in accordance with their ideals.


So, while it's true that people have flaws:
1. They're not all going to be in the mode of Greek tragedies, where basically everyone has some dramatic flaw that ultimately leads to his or her downfall.
2. Many flaws are subjective, resulting from differing priorities between people.
3. Many people (especially religious people) spend a good deal of time examining their flaws, because their ideals matter so much to them, and they do not want to violate their ideals.
4. Where flaws cannot be overcome, people will go to great lengths to hide them.

I think Isengoo and I agree on some level, but I think I have a different opinion on the definition of what a "flaw" is and how it should appear to other characters. In the end, it could well be that characters have flaws, but revealing flaws to people it itself part of roleplay, and revealing them such that Isengoo knows about them might be poor roleplay. ;) I will say that it's really quite a good point - real people are complex, and more realistic characters make for a better role-playing experience.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#40 Post by Delia » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:01 am

I can only say that while Delia's flaws(they are there)can be somewhat invisible, only very few people have gotten(or have had the inclination)near enough to notice some of them.

In short, while I agree with Isengoo I have to agree with Caelia as well. The "low" amount of players may make people seek RP opportunities wherever they arise as there might not be many good opportunities even if the "right" course of action would be just to exchange a few pleasantries or rude remarks and be off with your daily business. Or just ignoring the bugger completely.
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