Roleplaying Issues

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luminier
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Roleplaying Issues

#1 Post by luminier » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:15 am

Today I had an experience in which I ws roleplaying in such a way that another person felt I was roleplaying the situation incorrectly. To be more specific, Trystan, a newbie to the game, had butchered a gremlin corpse as most young players make the mistake of doing.

Originally I discovered this, confronted him and he ran from Luminier where I managed to find him and tell him why it was wrong and explain that he shouldn't do it again. Then I told him how to improve his karma like I do with most players who make the mistake. I also told him I would want to check his karma later, make sure it is better. Later I learned that he had been forgiven by the Clergy, but Luminier had not heard of this.

After at least an OOC month of not seeing Trystan, he called upon Luminier to help with some other IC trouble (the trouble was that Trystan caught someone who he claimed tortured him, but from my view it would be a case of he said she said) and I wanted to check his karma since he happened to be asking me for help. He seemed to be upset by this (I think because he felt the whole karma/cannibal situation was over) OOC and IC and I attempted to roleplay the situation, but it seems that he was only upset further by other insulting comments from other players and possibly Luminier's.

While I understand that sometimes roleplay can be frustrating I feel it is important to remember that the game is just a game and that while some situations suck it is key to know that no one plays the game (or shouldn't) to make other players life a living hell. It seems thats what had happened to Trystan. While I apologize for that I don't really know how it turned out this poorly.

I think I was just looking for some other peoples opinions on the matter. I was told to go easy on Trystan by two people, but I felt I wasn't asking for anything out of the ordinary. Anything that isn't clear Ill try to clarify more in depth, I just wanted to give a short summary. Did I do anything clearly wrong or unfair? If Trystan wasn't a newbie I wouldn't even bother making this post, but treating newbies in the right way is of high concern for me.
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matusalem
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#2 Post by matusalem » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:47 am

Back when I was new, there were certain not-to-be-named characters who would go around looking for new characters in new character hunting grounds to beat up and victimize in a IG physical sort of way. This I believe to be legitimately detrimental to welcoming and maintaining new characters within the player base. These actions, in fact, ran me off from the game a couple times for extended periods before I got the hang of avoiding such situations. This is something I would frown on.

Holding a new character to the same standards, RP-wise, as you would an established character should never be avoided in my opinion. While a mechanical conflict for new players should be handled with kid gloves, RP conflict shouldn't. Especially in regards for one who has established a less than ethical behavior for his character and who proceeds to insult the guild from whom he expects assistance. An OOC month is a fairly long time too. Not knowing the facts of the matter entirely, and basing it solely on what you've written here, I'd have to recall the old childhood adage, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." Sticks and stones being mechanical conflict, while the words being RP conflict. It is the point of the game after all. Just my two cents.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#3 Post by isengoo » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:50 am

Luminier is a little too...devoted, especially for new players. I wonder, does he have any demons?

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#4 Post by luminier » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:14 am

isengoo wrote:Luminier is a little too...devoted, especially for new players. I wonder, does he have any demons?
And while I am devoted I know when to take off the heat from newbies. Im not going out looking for a newbie to eff up so I can throw his ass on the stake. And I can't just ignore these people that make mistakes either, I need to roleplay my character.

If you mean a dirty past, just read his background on the wiki, it's all there. If you don't mean that then I don't know what you mean.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#5 Post by Delmon » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:28 am

my first encounter of being lashed made me want to explore the game more.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#6 Post by caelia » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:45 am

It's interesting that we have a few recent comments saying "we need more conflict," as if episodes like this never happen. From my perspective, it simply isn't true that everyone is a "goody-goody" - while many characters will tend to fight against the same people, there are many different reasons for doing so, and relations between the guilds (and especially between certain players) aren't all sunshine and roses.


Luminier, I believe the code is on your side. Skinning and butchering are coded as "evil" actions, and I don't think anyone really doubts that the Crusade is there to stop evil actions.

I feel more than a bit of guilt myself, inasmuch as this was an evil action (policed by the Crusade/other guilds), but it was also an illegal action (to be dealt with by the Court, i.e., me), so I'm sure he felt beset from all sides about the matter. All things considered, I think I judged his case rather leniently, but it would have been poor RP either to ignore the case simply because he was a new player, or to make the fine go away without some good RP reason to do so. From my point of view, I don't know whether Trystan was roleplaying indignation/frustration, or poTrystan was actually upset by this; in the latter case, I hope he has forgiven us, and I hope it is clear by now that neither Luminier nor I were acting out of any actual malice, but rather, given our respective positions, we had to address this somehow. I don't have any hard feelings, poTrystan, for any OOC misery I caused, I'm sorry.

This leaves the larger issue (as I see it) of informing new players that skinning and butchering humanoids is illegal and immoral, and as it is, we players are still missing a few. I can't think of a way to address this short of coding some voice that speaks to new players as the enter the gremlin hill/nibbler hut/thilden caves.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#7 Post by Kaseo » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:35 am

Perhaps there should be something added to the help files for these skills that using it on humanoids is frowned upon. Or put up signs at the beginning of areas where newbies usually hunt. Unless a new player decides to go and read every news post and all the past cases, they're likely not to know about things like this until it's too late.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#8 Post by krelji » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:53 am

Kaseo wrote:Perhaps there should be something added to the help files for these skills that using it on humanoids is frowned upon.
Sometimes it might be wise to check the relevant help files first. The wizards already
added a warning regarding the use of skin or butcher.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#9 Post by isengoo » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:43 pm

luminier wrote:
isengoo wrote:Luminier is a little too...devoted, especially for new players. I wonder, does he have any demons?
And while I am devoted I know when to take off the heat from newbies. Im not going out looking for a newbie to eff up so I can throw his ass on the stake. And I can't just ignore these people that make mistakes either, I need to roleplay my character.

If you mean a dirty past, just read his background on the wiki, it's all there. If you don't mean that then I don't know what you mean.
1. You aren't Luminier.
2. If Luminier does have a dirty past, it is poorly expressed ICly.

By number 2 I mean that if someone truly has a difficult past, this should affect the present in both positive and negative ways.

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luminier
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#10 Post by luminier » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:20 pm

isengoo wrote: 1. You aren't Luminier.
2. If Luminier does have a dirty past, it is poorly expressed ICly.

By number 2 I mean that if someone truly has a difficult past, this should affect the present in both positive and negative ways.
I don't really understand what you mean by I am not Luminier. When I play Luminier shouldn't I technically "become" Luminier and act how he would act? Again this changes in the situation of newbies, I try not to be very harsh on them.

And I do have a dirty past, I left the Crusade, was hunted and killed many times over. I rejoined and literally clawed my way to the top. It affects me positively because I have learned alot from my mistakes, but negatively for most people because Luminier has learned to be overly devoted to the cause and obviously people don't like overly religious Taniel people.

All in all, I don't really understand what you mean.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#11 Post by ganandorf » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:11 pm

[quote="matusalem"]Back when I was new, there were certain not-to-be-named characters who would go around looking for new characters in new character hunting grounds to beat up and victimize in a IG physical sort of way. This I believe to be legitimately detrimental to welcoming and maintaining new characters within the player base. These actions, in fact, ran me off from the game a couple times for extended periods before I got the hang of avoiding such situations. This is something I would frown on. quote]

I actually do this quite often, do others agree with matusalem on this viewpoint? Though i never kill newbies, only bully them and kind of introduce them to the evil side of the game :D
Meow

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#12 Post by krelji » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:25 pm

Years ago my char has been scaring younger chars a little, for having performed
certain actions. Back then Abharsair - I think it was him - asked me to stop doing
so as it might scare away newbies. Said scare tactics were perfectly reasonable
ICly, but naturally I stopped doing so. I am not sure if those actions should be
avoided in these times as well, but perhaps the wizards can clarify it for us.

Personally I think bullying or scaring them a little is fine, especially if it nonlethal for
the newbie, but that's just my opinion.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#13 Post by matusalem » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:10 pm

To clarify, I was referring to being blocked in and attacked.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#14 Post by Delmon » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:33 pm

Sometimes a little scariness get's a player interested, as it did me.
I can remember other incidents where things happened to gain more interest.

1. Teaming with an evil as a new character
2. Almost getting burned on the stake by a crusader (the -almost- is key)
3. A character who I smack talked surprised me and beat my character up (He walked out, then snuck back in and unleashed!)
4. Wars
5. Getting captured and dragged off by a sathos and then let free with no injury

It's when a player is ulimately shut down from the type of character they want that leaves players dissatisfied with their experience I think.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#15 Post by caelia » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:15 am

The discussion has strayed a bit from its original purpose, but poGanon/poMatusalem are raising good points.

There is a certain sort of player who will always gravitate toward good/neutral/evil characters, and another sort who would be more or less comfortable with a character of any alignment so long as things are interesting.

There is some irony here in that someone who, from the beginning, wants an evil character, or would play one if the right opportunity came up, will be more discouraged if someone like Ganon does not show up intending to rough them up a bit. The rest are generally going to find encounters with evil characters unpleasant, and since no new player has any hope of beating any Satho in combat, it would be poor sport to kill them, but at the same time, poor roleplay not to intimidate them somehow.

Doubtless, encounters between good and evil players will tend to be enjoyed by one side more than the other. I don't think I'll ever be quite as happy with losing a battle to them as I would be with winning one, and I am not a particularly competitive person. The trick is to balance the unpleasantness of any individual encounter with the overall enjoyment of the game, and while this might be the subject of another discussion, I think it is safe to say that this is not served by senselessly killing new/young characters, which would only spawn hopelessness among their players.

So the answer to poGanon's question, in my estimation, is that when encounters with newbies happen with an eye on roleplay, and they do not automatically result in the character's death, they tend to serve the game. For the sake of the evil side, there has to be some interaction between actual evil characters and their potential recruits, but because of the nature of the game, there is perhaps little obvious difference between a potential recruit and a potential victim. It does seem safe to me to say, though, that no one is going to sign up for classes at Ganon's Evil Badassery Correspondence School if they can only watch what the evil players do from the sidelines.

One thing I will add - because far be it from me to let an unrelated thought go unexpressed :wink: - is that Satho clerics have certain abilities that can affect the game far beyond the po's ability to stay logged in, and I would say that they can do this better than any other guild. Encounters with undead, and piles of humanoid meat, do generate some traffic on the boards and in conversations in the marketplaces. It's a gruesome but effective way to do marketing, and even a new player will soon understand that the evil players are out there, somewhere.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#16 Post by luminier » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:39 pm

matusalem wrote: An OOC month is a fairly long time too. Not knowing the facts of the matter entirely, and basing it solely on what you've written here, I'd have to recall the old childhood adage, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." Sticks and stones being mechanical conflict, while the words being RP conflict. It is the point of the game after all. Just my two cents.

I think Trystans problem is that he was being forced to be on the wrong side of the law from what people were saying about him (being a cannibal and such) and he really just wanted to be a neutral good type character. What I did do however, was offer some advice on how to remedy the situation, even if I thought that the whole situation wasn't nearly as bad as some I have seen. Words likely don't hurt anyone, but they cause frustration when u try to roleplay your character one way and you make a mistake and you get seen another way. Probably me above all people should know this situation of being "misunderstood" quite well. But in both cases, mine and Trystan's the goodies both had perfectly "legal" reasons to think we were the bastards of the earth.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#17 Post by Desiderea » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:55 am

Just thought I'd note, I was informed by a number of players that butchering/skinning humanoids was a bad thing, but I wasn't aware that gremlins were humanoids... And didn't figure it out til I went back to Arborea and all the npcs thought I was evil! I guess I saw butchering an evil nasty thing different from butchering, say, an elf. To clarify, are all the npcs except for animals (deer, rabbits, and the like) considered bad to skin/butcher?

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#18 Post by Delia » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:26 am

All beings of humanoid form is a no-no.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#19 Post by luminier » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:28 am

If it stands upright, has arms and legs and a head, it's a humanoid.

Unless you cheat and make a golem.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#20 Post by Jalil » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:26 am

luminier wrote:All in all, I don't really understand what you mean.

I believe what Isengoo, (and please correct me if I am wrong Isengoo), was trying to say there is that there is a pervasive trend within Geas that most of the major players here are guilty of (myself included). When someone invests hundreds of days of game time into their character it seems to be a natural thing for the player to invest a lot of themselves into their character as well, by this I mean that a player's RL reactions to situations or their RL traits and quirks begin to manifest within their character(s). This would not actually be considered "roleplaying".

To me, as well as to others, "roleplaying" is defined by being able to completely separate yourself from your character(s). Your characters' reactions/quirks/personality traits, etc, are NOT your own as a player, but belong to that other person living in your head.

Like I said before, I am guilty of this with my main character along with many other players within the game, but I think most people try to resolve this issue by creating alts and trying different roleplaying techniques with their alts.

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