Roleplaying Issues

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lanyara
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#41 Post by lanyara » Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:19 pm

The "low" amount of players may make people seek RP opportunities wherever they arise as there might not be many good opportunities even if the "right" course of action would be just to exchange a few pleasantries or rude remarks and be off with your daily business.
It also heavily depends on the player behind that other character, and on the "personality" of your character in question. Some characters are easier to "change" than others. And sometimes it may be impossible to change facets of your character at all, because of OOC reasons - i.e. if you think you would no longer enjoy playing a certain character. It can be hard to get out of specific, deadlocked situations, so I can understand that not everyone wants to play through these, really.

A good Crusader does probably not want to fall from grace and goodness, become corrupted and then end up as a force for the evil side at all. (Especially not if the evil side is very small and you'd almost feel as if you are playing alone and isolated. I really think the most powerful feature a guild can have is 'tele', or put differently having a 'community feeling' within that guild. As in having likeminded people around.)

Two extreme examples for sudden personality changes which may be very difficult:

- A jovial, happy character type does not necessarily want to jump to the other extreme within a second, suddenly starting to torture enemies. Even if there may be a reason to do this, like extreme revenge, devotedness or whatever, but this seems really hard to pull off.

- Vice versa the angry, almost naked cannibal might feel quite uneasy when he, all of a sudden, has to appear dressed in fine clothes and change his diet. (You can see how much switching from meat-eater to vegetarian in real life can affect, and back again. You'll go through a local mall and realize that you suddenly have less options available compared to those without such a restriction. Not saying this is good, or bad, it's just ... different)

But it also should be possible to "change" or otherwise affect the personalities of characters - even of those being older and more established. Otherwise you would have somewhat stale and boring characters populating a MUD. In my opinion it would get dull to become "more powerful" just for the sake of .. being more powerful alone. The "power" or strength of a character alone should really play only a very, very small role. Why not have weak Sathos or weak Crusaders if they are great at roleplaying for instance? Sure you may prefer to have only strong chars, but that means to leave out weaker ones, plus as a few others said already - often the option to play is better than not being able to play at all.

(On a belated note, this is also why I believe there are quite few halfling characters, especially VERY few "famous" halflings. Sure, roleplaying a halfling is fun. And ideas such as areas only accessible for very small characters are GREAT to have. I also guess halflings would really be perfect rangers/scouts/thieves, but from my perception other races are a lot stronger. Halfling thieves may be a small exception, but I have no idea if they still exist. But what about active halfling rangers, crusaders, clerics, scribes? I really think it boils down that halflings are a bit left out here in the overall picture, in part because the combat system prefers those who can dish out damage and soak hits. I am not complaining or suggesting to adjust the combat system at all, I just think it would be nice if there be more niceties for halfling characters to "stick around" for longer. But enough of that.)

Back to changing personalities of older characters. I am not stating it should be easy. However, it should not be impossible either.

Other playercharacters - or sometimes their absence - will always have an impact on the development of a character. As will certain unique events, like slaying a dragon, destroying a guild, and so forth.

These factors all heavily influence other playercharacters already.

Last but not least, I would like to finish saying that the underlying code has a huge impact here. Players often happily try out new commands/stuff and this often triggers action/reaction, and so forth, to name just one example.

There was a little bit more I wanted to write, but my note is again way too long, so that's it.
Best race: halflings.

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luminier
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#42 Post by luminier » Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:29 am

lanyara wrote:It can be hard to get out of specific, deadlocked situations, so I can understand that not everyone wants to play through these, really.
That is really why most people don't try to piss big strong good people off. Roleplaying through getting your ass kicked generally isn't fun.
lanyara wrote:A good Crusader does probably not want to fall from grace and goodness, become corrupted and then end up as a force for the evil side at all. (Especially not if the evil side is very small and you'd almost feel as if you are playing alone and isolated.)
I am sure a Crusader wouldn't mind falling from grace (lol), but, finding a way to do that properly in terms of roleplay is pretty impossible. It would be like Luminier deciding one day Caelia is actually a bitch and just wanting to kill her and desecrate her lifeless corpse for no reason. It just wouldn't make sense. (but if you figure out a good loophole, send it my way privately ;))
lanyara wrote:Why not have weak Sathos or weak Crusaders if they are great at roleplaying for instance? Sure you may prefer to have only strong chars, but that means to leave out weaker ones, plus as a few others said already - often the option to play is better than not being able to play at all.
Because weak Sathos and weak Crusaders can get their asses kicked, and that tends to shut mouths pretty fast. Luminier walks in. Luminier headbutts you with his plate helmet of insta-knockout. You fall unconscious.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#43 Post by isengoo » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:27 am

Yeah, falling from grace is hard when the bad guys are so wimpy nowadays.

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luminier
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#44 Post by luminier » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:23 am

Fine, ill just use epic roleplay and make myself fall from grace.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#45 Post by Arwenth » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:59 pm

luminier wrote:Fine, ill just use epic roleplay and make myself fall from grace.
Step 1. Sneakily abuse Crusader Authority to trick people into being Evil...
“He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.”

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#46 Post by lanyara » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:35 am

Because weak Sathos and weak Crusaders can get their asses kicked, and that tends to shut mouths pretty fast.
That may be but the only ones left then will be those perfectly setup and trained heavily for PvP scenarios. Or those that don't play (or those trying to stay outside). And I could understand when suddenly people complain about a lack of active players in specific guilds... because the threshold for participation is quite high. I know that this statement is not true in general, because other guilds have a problem with recruitment just as well. So it is possibly a more general recruitment problem.

But I still think that the "threshold" aspect plays a significant part of it.

In such a scenario it seems mandatory to train heavily else you would soon become too "weak". But even then I am not too sure about this.
I dont even see many young crusaders, really either. Is it too hard to join? Too difficult? I was quite literally SHOCKED to look at the OOC board of the Taniel clerics and see a very old note of myself. Did the other players not write anything OOCly in 5 years? Or were there not that many players in the guild? I don't get it - but it seems strange :)
Even if wizards dont reply, they do in general read that!

I am honestly not sure having too many guildless people is a good thing. My only explanation is that some people dont want to play in specific guilds, for one reason or another ...

But I don't want to step on anyone's toe here. I have merely noticed that the Mud works SIGNIFICANTLY better the more players you have participating and playing in one way or another. And I mean this as a general statement, no matter whether they are in a guild or not actually (because you can have more fun as guildless guy just as well).

20 players are at least 5x as better than 10 players.
Yeah, falling from grace is hard when the bad guys are so wimpy nowadays.
I never played a really "bad" guy so I am in no position to judge, but from recalling the MUD years ago the sathos were a lot more active than nowadays. Not that there were many of them back then either, but they had a big impact on the MUD.

But ok, what I may percieve as a problem may just as well be none at all.

I don't want to irritiate anyone here, really.
Best race: halflings.

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luminier
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#47 Post by luminier » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:46 am

This is the current problem that I have unearthed.

Right now if you are a noob, it tends to be hard to roleplay a reason to go bad because everything is so blazingly good. If you step out of line even slightly, it gets shot right up the line to me, and then I kick your ass. Everyone hears about it and then you get a noob who turns into a half decent character, but will never have a reason to go evil ever.

If you make a noob you have a reason to go evil because you haven't been influenced by everyone in the MUD that is blazingly good. Consequently this makes for exceptionally weak evil guys.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#48 Post by isengoo » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:02 am

It took you this long to figure that out? :P

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caelia
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#49 Post by caelia » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:34 am

lanyara wrote:I was quite literally SHOCKED to look at the OOC board of the Taniel clerics and see a very old note of myself. Did the other players not write anything OOCly in 5 years? Or were there not that many players in the guild? I don't get it - but it seems strange :)
When all of the active clerics see each other, the board is less useful than a simple OOC chat, and I assure you that there were plenty of those. For issues needing the help or advice of a wizard, communes were more effective. So yes, we did not write anything OOCly, but this doesn't mean that absolutely nothing happened. :)

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luminier
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#50 Post by luminier » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:53 pm

isengoo wrote:It took you this long to figure that out? :P
Thanks for all your faith in my knowledge, but no it didn't take me this long to figure out. It was pretty obvious about 5 seconds after aragog, jezz and kaspars got deleted/stopped playing.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#51 Post by adanath » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:40 pm

Its easy for a Crusader Tshahark to go evil.

Me hungry

no food....
no food......
no food.......
halfling!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Me evil tshahark, but how are you going to know I already have green skin....wahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahha

lanyara
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#52 Post by lanyara » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:58 pm

Yes. Even back then it was always the question:

boar or halfling
boar or halfling

It may be that the reason for seeing rather few halflings may be that tshaharks eat them! Being hungry is easy to understand. But the concept of evil and good ...

I am surprised tshaharks have no trouble understanding that.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#53 Post by ganandorf » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:37 pm

I'm with adanath. It is EASY for a tshahark to roleplay being evil. But no one does it. I'd assume the reason is that there is no guild for them to really join as bad intelligence makes for a bad cleric.

Just so everybody knows, It is possible to be guildless and still have a strong fighting character, especially when you have sathos as backup.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#54 Post by Skragna » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:30 pm

Skragna was originally supposed to be an EVIL tshahark... but then I saw just how OP Luminier was. >-< I didn't feel like getting my head split open every other ten minutes.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#55 Post by luminier » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:42 pm

Luminier is soooo OP jeez debuff that guy.
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#56 Post by lanyara » Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:46 am

Luminier should have been an evil tshahark.

But more seriously there are rather few active tshaharks altogether, and almost all of them will be crusaders eventually and hence good (and actually the tshaharks in the Legion were "good" as well, just a bit less "dedicated" than crusaders.).

Tshaharks seem somewhat limited in most regards to begin with (active tshahark scribes? Alchemists?) and even if they may be stronger in combat than others it seems easier to play human or dwarf in this case (and still get to have a somewhat ok constitution, without being too limited in what you can do)

And then there is also the general question - what to do once you are evil (or just extremely dumb), hunted and outlawed? Seems you can only train up for PvP alone AND there are only very few evil characters compared to good/neutral as well but plenty of enemies who'll eventually get your tail (oh and don't forget the NPCs, NPCs can be a lot more annoying than PCs because you can at least try to talk to PCs whereas NPCs will all behave the same).

It just doesn't seem to be very attractive in the long run to go "evil tshahark" if that further limits your options of what you can do. But don't let that stop you. :D

It would be quite a feat to recruit "good" AND powerful tshaharks into the ranks of the evil, just imagine what would happen if that were to be a success ... ;)
That's also one reason why I disagree with the notion of "tshaharks were created to fight insects, hence we hate them". This extreme attitude just further limits options - I never understood it why they then later complained that tshaharks were always enemies. No surprise if you exclude them even further! :D (But as said, I never had a Satho or Lilithian, perhaps they would be forced to go that route due to a demand by Sathonys himself. If it was however an entirely player-driven decision then I think it was not good to have. There are already many obstacles, putting further obstacles doesn't make it much easier)
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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#57 Post by Phelan » Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:25 am

Sathos don't have much sympathies for tshaharks. They are a disgusting hybrid of human and saurian, and especially because they were created to destroy Sathonys' Insects. Therefore I don't think you will ever see any Tshahark following Sathonys.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#58 Post by adanath » Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:58 am

Ibelieve there has already been a sathonys tshahark, I know there has been one in the order.

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#59 Post by Arwenth » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:10 am

Maybe it's just me, but I could see Lilith very easily wanting tshaharks as her followers. Sure the races did something the gods frowned on by creating a new race but from what I understand of Lilith they did something she could in the long run approve of. Twisted other races to be something that shouldn't exist. Also from what I have seen of Lilithians as far as NPCs they are all tribal and barbaric It'd be interesting if there were Lilithian tshahark NPCs or some sort of ritual devoted Lilithian tshaharks could go through with a special benefit.
“He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.”

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Re: Roleplaying Issues

#60 Post by ganandorf » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:40 am

I think I would definitely let a tshahark follow Sathonys. It's really no different than allowing old crusaders or... old asral clerics :D to follow Sathonys. I'd treat them like a mercenary of course, I wouldn't put my life in their hands.

Chances are I would not accept one into the clergy, unless they had been a follower for a long time, bad intelligence makes for a bad cleric.
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