Evil/Good Balance

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ganandorf
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Evil/Good Balance

#1 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:47 pm

Right now It's quite obvious that the balance between the good and the evils is a bit shifted. I'm trying to fix that balance in the game, but dont want to do any drastic roleplay till I've figured out what might work best.

First to address a few issues.
1. There are alot of you (good guys) and few of us (bad guys). We'll try to fix that.
2. We're limited to a few areas (basically the tundra) If we're seen anywhere else We're attacked on sight. I have a few ideas about how to fix that in the game but i need to know what everyone else thinks.

I know I might've been a bit agressive before, attacking everyone i possibly could, but i just wanted to point out, I tried the best i could to not kill anyone unless it was a fair fight. Alot of the time i arrested you, used some of your spare parts as a meal, and sent you on your way. I think it was quite fair and I might continue doing it.

I havent talked to many yet in the ooc area but I probably will.

I wanted to make a major point here, and say that any ideas you suggest should require no coding at all, this is going to be a player initiative, not a wizard one. Coding wise everything is pretty fair, i THINK everything can be fixed roleplay wise.

Again my idea may or may not make sense after i hear what everyone else thinks. so i wont specify anything until after a few people say what they think or post their comments.

All I'll say is that it evolves around the idea of if encountered give us a chance to escape, or if you kill us (its inevitable in some situations), return our stuff without jerking us around. And we'll do the same to you.
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#2 Post by Delia » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:01 pm

Even though my fingers itch sometimes to go and fight some Sathonites, I refrain from doing so. I am quite content on being on a supporting role just clearing things up afterwards. When the evil side was quite strong it was actually quite fun to gather up a group and go try your luck. Now that the good guys have both the territory and the numbers it just does not feel that right to join that group of four against one.

To be perfectly honest, I was surprised out of my underwear when I fought some of the new Sathos long ago. Being completely used to characters like Kaspars, Jezz, Aragog, Shadowca and the like, you can imagine my amazement when Delia made that killing critical, blinded.(You never know who is behind that mask...)

So I am for making it a bit easier for you guys for the time being if you just do not come asking for a bloody nose ;)

Another thought...it is now perfectly accessible for younger characters to get into the conflict which is quite nice in a way. Non-Epic characters just have "gotten in the way" more or less so the change of pace is atleast nice.
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#3 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:14 pm

Yeah, another person expressed a similar problem with the mask. But try appraising the character behind the mask.

Also delia I know you hang back alot, but no one says you have to. I DO NOT mind dying as long as its in a fun/fair way. I don't want to be killed just for bragging rights/you havent killed someone in a while and you're bored. I'd just appreciate if i could get my stuff back in some sort of fair manner as well, usually that makes the dying process alot easier to cope with.

As an example: sometimes after i die the party that kills me will return MOST of my stuff. But keep the rarest/most interesting and not tell me about it. I'll have to ask them about it a few times, before i get some form of straight answer about how the hell i can get my stuff back. I hate when people do this, And i definitely try not to, I return all equipment in full.

And who says you have to kill me/us. If you have the chance capture us, roleplay, give us an opportunity to escape alive. If we make the wrong choice (mouth off) THEN go ahead and kill us.
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#4 Post by Delia » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:30 pm

Appraising works in some situations but I feel it can be a bit of making the choices with your knowledge, not the character. A bit like all the problems around disguise -> "That must be Gen!" Also, when two or three gruesome masked whatnots appear, you are not going to check for tiny details carefully ;)

But yes I agree on returning things if the situation proceeds smoothly and just giving a good beating without killing when you have the clear, upperhand(when you just might know the other has died a couple of times recently.)
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#5 Post by Arthur » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:50 pm

I agree that the balance has shifted too far in favour of the good guys, largely because of sheer numbers. I think one thing in particular that the game has lost is the ability for evil characters to walk around Forostar without being attacked on sight. Jezz used to walk around without his mask and could instill enough fear that he would rarely be attacked. Mostly he would just act menacing and RP would do the rest. I remember some very uneasy conversations when he joined us at the crossing, dripping maggots! This also meant that younger characters had the chance to interact with him and so gave more possibilities for evil minions to develop. All this apparently ended when a large population of powerful good characters, mostly crusaders, tipped the balance.

How to change things ICly would require some work and cooperation. I have a few suggestions that I think might just help to make things more fun for all.
  • Don't just attack on sight. If this becomes the norm for both sides, it gives more possibilities to size up an opponent, issue threats or otherwise posture.
  • The Sathonite mask could be used more sparingly - unmasked characters walking alone and weapons not wielded could be considered less threatening, while masked, grouped and weapon-toting baddies are obviously up to no good.
  • An IC way to encourage this might be for the Elvandar or Arborea authorities to allow some freedom of religion. I know the game is set up to encourage clashes between diametrically opposed groups but sometimes the degree of polarisation is extreme.
  • Discourage sharing of line items between different guilds. This would make it more difficult for the goodies to arrange big possies to hunt down a Sathonite who has popped his head up somewhere outside Asador.
  • Better enforcement of misuse of the OOC who command.
I think simple measures like these to reduce the amount of PvP combat where it is not wanted would be beneficial. There will still always be ways of stirring up trouble when there are good IC reasons or when both sides want to join battle. If there was one thing I would change in the code to even things up, then I would remove the Crusader watchtowers. If a lone and outnumbered Sathonite dares to commit some mischief, at least make goodies like the rangers work to patrol the lands to catch them at it.

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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#6 Post by lanyara » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:32 pm

I was about to write a long note, but then changed my mind as it became
too long.

So just one short comment, as @Ganandorf wrote:
everything can be fixed roleplay wise.
I do understand OOC frustrations, especially concerning looting or losing
something like a mount, but I think there are some IC limitations regardless.
It would be strange to expect a dutybound good character not react when
undead hordes roam the roads to give just one example.
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#7 Post by Delmon » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:56 pm

I'm not so sure what the problem is Ganon. Train and get stronger?

Appraise the character behind the mask? With what time!!?
Don't just attack on sight. If this becomes the norm for both sides,
I have been attacked on sight while playing my veteran and even with my young alts. I cant help it if a masked darkelf rashly zeros in for the kill.

Nope, its darkelf/slimy human hunting season.

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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#8 Post by rafael » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:17 pm

For any fix I would assume that there ought to be some 'range' of normalized actions and reactions from both parts; of course with some room for creativity and character particularities. I don't think the 'numerous' good guys are out to kill the bad guys, but I do think the reprisals ought to fit the crime. If Gerrit is made to dissapear, this ought to worry people and make them feel like the world is unsafe and dangerous, but it would not raise a mob to chase down those responsible into the gates of Asador. Now when whole villagers are butchered and razed and the remains are in gruesome displays, my character, at least, takes this very seriously. It's a big crime. The lands are held in a constant state of terror. The population decimated. So even if the player balance is perceived to lean on the good side, the evil side is still "acting" big. There's no piecemeal kidnapping for ritual needs, or spreading plague or other evils, just the wholesale slaughter of the population. Indeed, it's become more or less the signature of one of the new sathos. It is indeed within the powers of the priests, but it would be reasonable to expect considerable retaliation. I've found rewarding the tactic of the evils using their lackeys to secure areas for themselves so they can avoid casual discovery. On the downside, if they do happen to come across someone they'll likely be better prepared and so this perpetuates encounters being terribly one-sided. One of the biggest advantage that evils have is that they almost always get to choose the time and the place. But this is also a big responsibility. I think the evil side has to think about their current status quo, their future goals and how to reach them. Have fun planning this out, have goals other than abstractly "winning" or "beating" the bad side. Sure, the general plan is a world will be full of so many skulls and bones that you can't even step on the ground anymore, or distinguish bone piles from mountains. But there are intermediate steps, particular goals, grudges, desires, human feelings, material conquests and feats that can cause conflict in creative ways that do not necessarily involve raising undead, pulling monsters or killing nps and players. (Or they might too..!)

Also I'm not sure how much "life" there is behind the scenes on the evil side. Without people to roleplay and have their evil conversations with and so on I think it would be natural that there is less new blood coming in. How's life up north? Do you guys have conversations when feasting on halfling meat and elven blood? Do you wax philosophical about how elven tears are the sweetest to Sathonys ? The composition of the rivers of hell? What do you guys go? You _DO_ something right?

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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#9 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:27 pm

Well I'll start roleplaying more as we might have a few more minions, but currently its been kind of sparce. Exams just ended for me, So I'll have more time to put into the game, the past few days I've just been playing semi-afk half the time. Also as more and more people start coming north and we start interacting with more people, more roleplay will surely develop.

Delmon:
If you don't see what the problem is I don't really know what to say. But ill give it a shot.There's a few things really.
I DONT want to PvP every single time im online.
I DONT want to be jerked around every single time i die, I know you're sorry about that one incident, but there were others in the past, in fact luminier was good for it too "Oh yeah come on we just want to talk (wield spear in both hands, mood frenzy, aim at neck)"
"Sure you can say just train and get stronger." But here's the problem, some people see us on the who list and start hunting us down. They'll come into areas they would never normally come - The tundra - if we're on the who list, and just wait around there. Also how many training areas do you think are free to us? The nymph valley and the unicorn forest? Sure the nymph valley is a good one, the unicorn forest is a bit rough, even for me. And anything outside of that theres always a risk we're going to get caught/killed. Infact from what ive heard dragan died a few times in the high elf valley, yeah thats something remote and off to the side, but he still died.

The changes im trying to put through The evils would interact more with the goods. This doesnt mean thats its going to be all buddy buddy, we can still fight just as much if not more, I'm just saying why not make it easier/funner for both parties?
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#10 Post by isengoo » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:04 pm

Personally, I think the watchtowers are a bit overpowered. I'd prefer having to go patrolling than have an automatic report come up every time someone bad crossed their path.

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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#11 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:01 pm

Seems alot of good guys think the watchtowers are overpowered. But I think theyre not hard to get around, and It's a good way to get your attention every once in while ;).

Another idea i had, one that might end up working the best: If we run into you, or you good guys run into us, before the fight starts we give eachother a little bit of time to flee, If no one flees, its a free for all from there on out where anything goes.
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#12 Post by luminier » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:27 pm

The main reason watchtowers are over powered is that there are only a few ways to get to certain places (usually one path). In fact if you aren't using short ways or hell rifts, it's pretty hard to not walk by at least one.

To be honest, I think towers are a little strong. I think they could be easily made less powerful though if there was more way to get to a place from the ground. To be honest though, they shouldn't be that much of a problem. Rift's and way's exist for a reason.
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#13 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:30 pm

It's not always that easy to get around watchtowers, but its doable. But the real question is are they really necessary? There's so many good guys right now, that, whenever they see us they report us to you. You dont need watchtowers in excess to that, thats just overkill.

TBH like i said i dont want watchtowers removed, they're not that bad. Thats why i put this in the roleplay section, i wanted to mostly discuss the general attitude towards us evil characters.

AND YES, I am trying to change how we act in game. Being more diplomatic and less animal-like. But we're still going to be awesome, so dont worry.
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#14 Post by luminier » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:58 pm

Well you are still talking about having some of them removed. The Crusader's won't do that. It doesn't make Roleplay sense to do it anyways.

Im game for less sharing of line items though. I never really liked the idea.
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#15 Post by Delmon » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:13 pm

But here's the problem, some people see us on the who list and start hunting us down
I know in my case due to the general activity of the sathos and multiple sightings of undead i have been on patrol almost constantly. I have no rp reasons to stop.

Ganon, I dont really understand your long term problem. I feel like there will be a shift in the power once you gain more recruits, and there is no reason to set up ooc rules over multiple deaths.

It's also difficult for goodies to slow down because there is the residue of precedence which includes "you must do everything you can to kill a sathos, bc if you dont, they will capture your friend, and sacrifice them, open the insect portal and tower of pain. If you try to stop them they will mock you, threaten you, and then sacrifice you too for looking at them wrong. They will raise undead at your training spots, and murder the people you rp to protect." 8)

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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#16 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:41 pm

Delmon i think you misunderstood me.

No one said i was going to set up ooc rules. I wanted to talk to people ooc before i go ahead and start talking to them IG. Why? Because if i come out of nowhere asking them for stupid deals, and everyone is on a different page, it makes me look stupid.

Here atleast i can get a general idea of what people want.
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#17 Post by lanyara » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:46 am

before the fight starts we give eachother a little bit of time to flee, If no one flees, its a free for all from there on out where anything goes.
This may be problematic, insofar that there may be no IC reason to act this way.

A cleric is usually extremely devout to the chosen deity. OOC considerations aside, what IC reason will opposing religions and representatives of that religion have to not try clash violently against each other? Especially given past conflict experiences.

"Spiritual" warriors like the crusaders are devout to their respective deities just as well so these types can be included in a comparison. These character concepts will always have less leeway to react as opposed to those that follow no deity, or are less devout. Or in other words to give a drastic example: cutting unicorns in two may force a reaction onto those that are devout worshippers of Evren.

I am not saying that there may never be a reason for non-PvP interaction between those extreme character types, but very devout people just have a hard time coming together:
Yesterday evil_cleric may have killed some good NPCs while good_cleric tried to rescue these, today evil_cleric and good_cleric have a friendly beer at a local pub, talking about the good old times. Such a scenario is quite unlikely.

So, to an extent, the possible interaction is already restricted.

Another problem may be that, when a character is known to be an aspiring young evil guy, how will you as an extremely good character react to this poor lost soul? There are many possible ways, like trying to convert, or talking some sense into them, or hitting their heads in. Or combine these, in any order, or try something completely else. Or even ignore it, although this one is obviously a bit hard if undeads run around trying to bite you (like in Shaun of the Dead), and that young evil guy may one day be the next one raising zombies on the roads ...

One thing that should be obvious is that goodies do not want to see any young evil character succeed ICly in an evil fashion. As that would mean doing something evil, sooner or later, like killing or harming good NPCs by whatever means. Or serving an evil deity as a spy or as cleric lateron. (I mostly refer to clerics here though. A follower of an evil deity may not have such an extreme agenda, and it may make sense to not treat them exactly the same as clerics or other very devout characters.)

Also, I think @Ganandorf did want to focus on roleplay aspects rather than code changes.

Honestly, I think the best approach here is to try to explore different concepts if a given one does not work anymore.

Anyone saw the movie The Usual Suspects? Kevin Spacey was like the ultimate evil, but his reputation was those of a harmless and incapable cripple.
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#18 Post by luminier » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:47 am

Still I think the whole guild raiding thing is a little rough but easily justifiable. I am sure the good side could also easily raid Asador. Really no where is "safe" for an evil person at the moment, it's really up to the discretion of the good guys to decide to give the bad guys mercy at the moment. Also up to the actions of the evil's to incite an attack or to lay low.

IC? I could easily order the whole Crusade to meet on a certain day to go kill everything in Asador and have little resistance. No one could really question Luminier about it either. It would probably be entertaining, but for the same reason I don't like raiding other peoples guilds I wouldn't look for more IC reasons to raid a city. I just don't like crushifying the hopes of everyone in that guild especially when it is -just- coming up from the dead.

But then, sometimes they step out of line. Killing off Cumberly and Bandama and expecting the good side to just laugh it off might be a little foolish on the side of the evils, but, if they can take it ( I haven't heard any word from poKirill or poDragan yet) and not complain and willing to have the possibility of their guild/city getting raided, more power to them.

Not killing eachother on sight... ehh im still not sure where I sit about that. Lanyara is right, it doesn't fit the roleplay of some people. poDelmon wanting to kill people everytime he logs on is part of his roleplay as Delmon now and changing that would just seem weird to me, thats just one example. Every Crusader is duty bound to kick the crap out of every baddie cause thats what the God's say (we can take mercy and capture where possible though, I just want some nice green shackles to make it easier).

For now I am going to say I don't agree with it, but, I want to agree with it because I can't see any other option to "take it easy" on the Evil people. IC as Luminier he would certainly have to say "No these bastards don't deserve an inch of mercy, capture them, torture them, make examples of them, kill them, burn them, let their 'God' sort them out".

As I mentioned in the OOC forum I am attempting to slowly phase out of playing Luminier because of this balance of Good and Evil among other reasons. I chose to stop playing so I wouldn't -have- to make the decision to kill Sathos every day (every 24 hours as fair_play dictates). Time to let other people decide the fate of the evils. Everything the way it is currently is fine, and it's all work-around-able for the evils. They just need to tread carefully. Good luck to everyone.
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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#19 Post by Delmon » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:58 am

Ganon, maybe I can attempt to summarize your requests:

1. No looting
2. No multiple deaths (obviously, again, sorry on my part)
3. A chance of escaping alive from capture

These are very fair requests. The chance to escape a capture just makes rp worth it

What I am concerned about is requests such as:
1. Don't attack me right away
2. Don't attack with the intent to kill (it just seems wrong to treat an evil like a sparring partner when bone spears are out to get me)
3. Don't hunt me down constantly

I dont find those necessary for your long term success.

I think that you are ok with just no looting, a chance to escape capture ect., bc it is mutual fun. That's why I am a little confused at why there is a problem. I understand your frustration with the recovery options of the evils, but honestly, there are alot of fml situations that happen in geas.

Luminier put it nicely when he said "its all work-around-able" for the evils. Good luck from me too.

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Re: Evil/Good Balance

#20 Post by Minariel » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:04 am

I'm actually partial to what Gannon says about not killing people immediately. Crusaders and Tanielites would/should prefer capture, imprisonment, and eventual burning in my opinion. Since, if I understand that part right, fire is their method of cleansing. Now given, I don't have any idea of the coded ramifications of this, but it's one thought.

Another thing is, I read a log about Aragog and some unfortunate Asralite that she captured and forced to eat the flesh of a nymph. Then she let him run away. Unfortunately, he was afflicted with ghoulism and died anyway, but still, she went with a conversion method.

Part of the problem with a system like this is that there is little fear of death, and the murdered can actually identify their attackers post-mortem, making assassination pretty much impossible, without a good disguise (but then that disguise will quickly be bypassed/ignored with an "appraise").

I'd MUCH rather have a good guy capture a bad guy and try and convert him, or even try to force him to devote a candle or some other thing that his God would find blasphemous, if he refuses, burn him. I don't like the end result being death in all cases, but it DOES make sense in-character. Evil is supposed to be purged in their eyes.

If we had 50-some-odd players on both sides, this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but until then, people should try and find ways to be semi-cordial to one another. Though calling it "polite war" sounds a little silly, even to me.

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