Meditation. Too Common?

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gojin
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Meditation. Too Common?

#1 Post by gojin » Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:48 pm

Its been discussed before how 99% of all chars use meditation and how no one rps it in the slightest. I find it annoying when chars plop down fold their arms out of nowhere then get up to make a comment then plop down, then get up, then plop down, etc. I find the way the skill is basically as common as Appraise Object annoying. Not to mention that the vast majority of the chars who meditate have no IC reason for knowing how to manipulate their chi in a way that it restores their fatigue and health. Be honest, does your char use meditate for any other reason than 'everyone else does it and if I dont I will be at a disadvantage'?

I understand most people wont handicap their hack&slash prowess for the sake of rp so can I suggest that meditation be changed so you have to learn the first point from a trainer? Maybe in 2 years or so it wont be as popular.
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#2 Post by lanyara » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:02 pm

Hmm one question - will characters with very high meditate skill still be able to teach it?
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#3 Post by luminier » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:51 pm

I think that should be allowed since, if you are asking to get taught the skill, at least then you've probably got an IC reason for meditating that you could tell another if they inquired.

I try to give all my char's a reason for meditating. It's really not that difficult.

IMO it's really not a big deal... the "player" population in the Geas Reality probably makes up about... less than 1% of the "unseen" population anyways? So if people are meditating here and there, well thats not -unheard- of. And who is to say that meditating is even uncommon in Geas? It is obviously not common in our world, but in the game world it could be as prevalent as washing in the fountain.
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#4 Post by Skragna » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:16 pm

I don't meditate. Until I can find an RP reason to do so, I probably won't ever do it, unless I need to be helpless for something.

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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#5 Post by Desiderea » Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:21 am

Yeah, I just started meditating cause everybody else does it... I was told that sleeping in the middle of the road was a bad idea though, :wink: otherwise I might be doing that, cause that was the best way to recover hp/mana on my old mud.

But yeah, having to learn the first percentage point from a trainer would make sense.

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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#6 Post by krelji » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:01 am

In case of my char there are some reasons that force him to meditate. I certainly
wouldn't mind if you'd have to learn the first point from a trainer, but considering
the reasons my char has, it should be perhaps a trainer that is more commonly
available.
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#7 Post by Abharsair » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:14 am

I have a problem with requiring the first point to be learned at a trainer for two reasons:

One: It makes it even more tempting to join Shaolins sorely for the purpose of getting a couple skills and then to leave them.

Two: It's unfair to newer players whereas the old ones couldn't care less.

My solution to the problem (assuming it is a problem) would be to introduce an armor check. I mean come on, seriously, who would sit in a lotus position and happily empty his mind while he is wearing half a inch of steel all around him? If only lightly armored or unarmored people can use meditation effectively, it would still work for Shaolins and everyone else has to decide whether they want to use it or use decent armors. It seems to work for deflect as well, so why not meditation? And yes, I know, this would suck for the armored warriors who managed to get the skill to a decent level, but let's be honest: a room with a bunch of meditating Crusaders (or any other armored guild) looks a little... weird.
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#8 Post by ganandorf » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:23 am

The one possible source of "abuse" I can see is this.

Everyone wears shirts trousers and robes now adays. How hard is it to remove your heavy armours, stick them in a backpack, drop your backpack and meditate?

I think leave it how it is, and let players work it out. I mean i already punish people for meditating out in the open, I catch them torture them and whatnot. Why dont the good characters do this, for example, you see someone meditating, arrest them, shave off their hair, It's not against the law, sure you'll be known as the resident dick. But i mean who knows, that title may suit you. If you want to meditate, go somewhere secluded, thats what inn rooms are for.

Edit: Or another Idea could possibly be a new skill. That works much similar to meditate, but is not meditating for those that are more heavily armoured. Stretching? Practicing for battles to come?
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#9 Post by krelji » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:48 am

Abharsair wrote:I have a problem with requiring the first point to be learned at a trainer for two reasons:
That's why I suggested a more commonly available trainer. I think introducing an
armour check would be nice though, or simply using the limitations of deflect, where
the junk you carry around is being taken into account as well.
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#10 Post by luminier » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:08 am

Ugh, losing meditation for armoured people would just be such a headache. Like Ganon says it's easy enough to work around too... It takes roughly a second to remove my armour with the alias I have, then I meditate until im healed and the reequip everything?

Im with Abharsair. Is this really -that- big of a problem?

And im not entirely sure I agree with Abharsair on the one hand though. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that -samurai- are pretty heavily armoured, and it wouldn't be odd to see one of them meditating in full battle garb. I actually think samurai armour is more encumbering than chainmail because it doesn't move as freely. If a room full of Crusaders have an IC reason to meditate why the hell not? Not only that, the Crusader 'prayer' room does say it is for prayer and meditation. Boom, IC reason right there.

Then again, im slightly biased. I play mainly a heavily armoured character and im just trying to save myself the headache of removing my armours everytime I wanted to meditate (since my char definitely has an IC reason to do so). And to combat this, obviously there would be a cooldown/waittime introduced. But then it's fairly obvious (or maybe im just reading wrong) that Gojin seems to think that meditation should only be available to those who have an IC reason to do so and making it so heavily armoured characters can't meditate, like Abharsair suggests, really only "solves" part of the problem.

Also Abharsair, I don't think the idea was to have the Shao-Lin teacher teach how to meditate. I think the point was to make it so that if players had a skill of 80 or more they could teach it or that it would be readily available to be taught by the trainer in Elvandar or Arborea (if there was a trainer there).

Is meditation too common? Probably. Is it a problem? No. Lets brainstorm some ideas for new locations and areas instead and expand the game. Then we can nitpick.
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#11 Post by caelia » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:58 am

I don't think it's too unreasonable to find a Crusader or cleric (both being religious) to spend time meditating, which seems to be a rough analogue of real-life religious people spending time in deep prayer.

Just to toss another thought out there (and with Luminier, I believe there are more important things to do first), perhaps meditation could be made more effective in certain places/less effective in others, or there could be a delay between the last hostile action and the first allowable use of meditation (to eliminate, say, people meditating in the middle of what is essentially a battlefield).

In any case I'd rather not see too many limitations regarding its use imposed on monks, who have a hard enough time as it is. :)

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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#12 Post by lanyara » Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:21 am

Hopefully @Gojin comments soon :)

I think the other side of his note was to be able to use 'chi'.

Btw:
get up to make a comment then plop down, then get up, then plop down, etc
This could be easily changed. Just add a delay between different meditate tries, and if someone meditates too quickly/early, he'd be exhausted/fatigued quickly.

The reasoning for this could be that meditation requires someone patiently doing so, not someone who wants to socialize and actively talk.
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#13 Post by seriah » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:03 pm

I must say that I agree meditate, rise, say, meditate is a bit annoying and not very realistic.
I wonder if a system wherein the first 30 seconds of meditate is pretty much ineffective but the longer you stay in the spirit, the more effective it becomes.

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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#14 Post by ganandorf » Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:00 pm

luminier wrote: Is meditation too common? Probably. Is it a problem? No. Lets brainstorm some ideas for new locations and areas instead and expand the game. Then we can nitpick.
That's the second time you've said that. Why not do something about it? I'm sure theres plans for new areas and the like already there, just not enough people to code. Why not become a wizard and help code if your so keen on these new areas...
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#15 Post by Sairina » Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:36 pm

Hm. OK, I don't do "rise, talk, meditate", although I'm often afraid that other players might consider it impolite if I don't answer (I just feel that Sairi won't notice them while in deep meditation). However, I am under the impression that skill improves are more likely if I "meditate, rise, meditate, rise again...". Which doesn't strike me as particularly realistic (on the contrary, the longer you meditate without break, the better it should be for trainning it). I think it just checks for improves once you rise, though.

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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#16 Post by gojin » Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:18 pm

Actually, a lot of good responses and ideas so far. Any of which I think would be an improvement. I like the idea of an armour check even if it only forces a player to remove his armour -> meditate -> wear armour. It at least shows some effort/preparation to begin the meditation. I like the 30sec delay before meditation takes effect which might affect the rise -> say -> meditate stuff but really this should just be common sense not to do.

I have never liked restrictions on learning skills but imo meditate has gotten a bit ridiculous, hence this thread. It would be awesome if skills were taught by players more so I in no way want to limit that. If I could have it my way Id say the only way to learn meditation would be from the shao trainer or from another player char.
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#17 Post by Abharsair » Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:42 am

luminier wrote:Is meditation too common? Probably. Is it a problem? No. Lets brainstorm some ideas for new locations and areas instead and expand the game. Then we can nitpick.
No, not a problem per se, but it's also not intended to be used like that. I am pretty sure Turian didn't intend meditate to be an everyday replacement for "rest". So while not an urgent matter it's not "nitpicking" either.
luminier wrote:...but it seems to me that -samurai- are pretty heavily armoured, and it wouldn't be odd to see one of them meditating in full battle garb...
I am no expert on Feudal Japanese society, but I am quite sure Samurais didn't meditate heavily armored in the middle of a battle field, nor did they come to tea ceremonies in their battle garb.
caelia wrote:In any case I'd rather not see too many limitations regarding its use imposed on monks, who have a hard enough time as it is.
I absolutely agree. Any changes to meditate should affect Shaolins the least or not at all.
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#18 Post by Delia » Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:37 am

What needs to be remembered here is that meditation predates the skill system change and it was quite completely different then. To have a warrior with even 60 meditate was a rarity and took extreme efforts to achieve. That means the amount of people capable of focusing chi were not as abundant as they are now.

Delia being an elf with solid mentals during those times got stuck at meditate 63 or something and even that took atleast a YEAR(quite possibly more) to get as a member of the Legion.
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#19 Post by luminier » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:35 pm

The reason I'm being such a horses ass about this is because for people that took the time to learn the skill (like myself) now have an essentially useless skill if it's changed for the people that wear heavy armour all the time. From the beginning if I knew meditate would be limited in heavy armours I would have trained alchemy so I could get fatigue potions, or practiced singing for seasons. So *bitch bitch bitch* now I have to learn more skills *facepalm*.
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Re: Meditation. Too Common?

#20 Post by Angeal » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:23 pm

I did not read everyone's replies, but I stand by Luminier

pardon my swearing, but ... that. I've always found that meditation is just another general technique for characters to use to recover, like resting and sleeping. If someone really cares about roleplaying why they meditate, that's for them to decide. I think we should leave meditation to be widespread for anyone to use. I don't understand why it matters what armors you're using, or why it would even be such a big deal.

One thing I did see people say is that majority of people use meditation. And a good chunk of people are also wearing heavier armours. so in short, a change like this is effectively ... them over, what a waste of time trying to get meditation to XX skill. but really, if you want people to have reasons for meditating, I'm sure it isn't that hard to bs a reason

I don't mean this to be rude to Gojin or anyone else, but seriously, COME ON

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