Meditation. Too Common?

[Olrane]

Meditation is simply the "right choice" if you're a power gamer. Just like the need to use quests for XP, any player who wants to seriously PvP or whatever needs to have as many tricks at his disposal to recover quickly.

That said, the use of meditation is made ridiculous because it's done in a common, irreverent fashion. Rise, meditate, rise, meditate is of course one of the most vexing things from a roleplay perspective. People have offered a lot of great ideas in this thread, and I'll definitely reiterate some when I propose the following:

1. Meditation should have no effect for a set period of time after the meditation position has been achieved. But, so that this is not so confusing and frustrating, there should be a prompt that says "You've finally managed to find meditative focus" or some such.

2. Meditation should be impossible for a short period of time after the "rise" command. This will stop players from rising for something trivial and then going back into meditation. It's simply a measure to double the penalty for treating the skill like nothing.

3. Meditation could be based on encumberance. However - and this is incredibly important - delays need to be added to many more actions in the game if this is to be an effective countermeasure, especially delays for wearing/removing armours. I know in real life you can't just toss off a platemail, or don it right away. Vulnerability is one of the hallmarks of meditation, and the Shaolin are least vulnerable when in few armours.

[lanyara]

That was a pretty great summary IMHO!

I think (3) could be easily done. Different armours could have a different "wear/remove" counter, so that wearing a plate armour is not happening instantly anymore, but instead would take i.e. 2-4 seconds or something. (Just tossing a number here, could be more as well)

[Zehren]

If meditating is made harder to learn, I'd like to see an alternative way to willfully become helpless. Falling asleep doesn't count.

[luminier]

So we have some nice ideas for the leather dudes. How about some ideas for what the metal wearers can do to recover mentals, short of sleeping?

[Olrane]

So we have some nice ideas for the leather dudes. How about some ideas for what the metal wearers can do to recover mentals, short of sleeping?

The idea would be that you'd still have a choice: get yourself unencumbered (but vulnerable) to meditate, or meditate inefficiently while wearing heavy armours.

[luminier]

So we have some nice ideas for the leather dudes. How about some ideas for what the metal wearers can do to recover mentals, short of sleeping?

The idea would be that you'd still have a choice: get yourself unencumbered (but vulnerable) to meditate, or meditate inefficiently while wearing heavy armours.

I'd prefer it if we didn't just screw over the armour wearers... For some people meditate might be about power gaming, but, for people like me it isn't. I have an excellent IC reason, I don't do it because of power gaming. I don't want to get screwed out of quickly recovering just people some people think too many people meditate...

To make it fair I think something needs to be introduced to recover quickly for metal wearers -or- something like if you have 80 or 90 plus meditate there is no more malice (aka inefficient meditating) for wearing heavy armours and you can meditate in armours just as well as any leather wearer can. Because theoretically by then you should be able to meditate under pretty much any conditions as well as focus your chi like a master.

[seriah]

Few thoughts to mull over:
This is a fantasy game so even though we strive for some measure of things making real sense we primarily strive to have them make sense from an RP perspective.
The admin has a pretty good track record of making changes in the game without penalizing the players or handicapping the characters.
Everyones opinion has value and merit.
Now, it seems to me that no one is asking that meditate be strictly limited to a small selection of players. Most of the comments instead infer that as meditate IS a very effective technique and quite powerful in game, it only makes sense that there be some balance here.
Meditating in heavy armours in the middle of a town square with jugglers, singers and all sorts of activity makes little sense. But not if you have a high meditate skill, a high discipline and high skill in heavy armours.
So the real question boils down to: Is this a big enough concern currently that the player base would like the wiz team to begin recoding meditate so that its effect is tied to a list of other skills? Or is this something we would like to table for now and maybe make some adjustments later as we have time?
What do y'all think?

[Angeal]

I think that nothing should get changed. I personally don't see that roleplaying is that important in this situation. Sure this game is a fantasy world that is on the basis of roleplaying, but I think some things should just be left to be for fun. meditate is a useful technique that takes a bitching long time to raise, but is rewarding once you actually train it to a high skill level, and should be taken to be a common technique for any in this world (or w/e you want to call it)

edit: and I'm not even being crusader biased lol, if you know where my name is from, you'll know one of my alts

[Olrane]

Oy...maybe I'm a patient person, but I personally find meditate to be incredibly easy to learn. Your average character will have > 60 meditate skill between 10 and 20 days of play time...and at about 40 meditate it's no longer so agonizingly slow that you even notice it.

Getting to 100 meditate will take time, sure, but nobody needs that. Like most skills in Geas, there comes a sort of "threshold of usefulness" after which you just use the skill because it's helpful. When you get skill improves it's just a pleasant thing.

I pretty much quit caring about meditate after 40, it goes up at a fine rate after that. *Shrug*

That tangent aside, I don't see how a change to how meditate works is such a damnable thing. Before the skill system change, pretty much only Shaolin bothered to try to learn meditate because the skill would simply not improve unless you were willing to idle an unrealistic amount of time. As it is, any player can learn meditate at a notably quick rate. That it might be slightly less efficient under certain manipulable conditions is completely fair. "Rest" is what every character is entitled to, efficient meditation requires that you work for it.

How do you think many players felt when "backstab" became essentially unusable? It wasn't their right to use it - so the skill decayed and they adapted to the fact that it was no longer acceptable. If heavier armour wearers can't effectively use meditate, they'll find another way to do decently well. Skill decay is not a big deal, it just means you can learn other skills in that skill's place more easily.

Edit: Oh, and Luminier - really, it is a powergaming thing. I don't care what you say. If you want to roleplay meditation, the command "meditate" has not a single thing to do with it. You use the meditate command because it's the strongest and least resource-intensive recovery ability in the game. Period. People wouldn't have a problem with it if they weren't upset that they'd lose powergaming potential. It's EXACTLY like the backstab/reputation change.

[Sairina]

I for one like Olrane's ideas. But I could also live with the system as it is now...

[luminier]

Alright lets handle this in order.

10-20 days playtime? Not everyone has hours to throw away on this game they can squeeze in a few sessions here and there but nothing super long. 10-20 days (if it is even that fast I remember it taking much longer) is quite a long time for some players. Think of them.

Nobody needs 100 meditate? Iunno I would have to say it's pretty much awesome especially when it helps your focus chi get better as you raise it. Threshold of usefulness? Hell I wish I could get 1000 meditate. Ah... 1251 meditate... such a pleasant improvement. You quit caring sure, but you aren't everyone are you? =D

Why do we keep bringing up "before the skill system change"? when did that happen? several years ago? And so one skill isn't a bitch to raise anymore... aww thats sad now theres only one hundred skills that are a bitch to learn. I really -wanted- that extra bitch skill to learn because im such a goddamn masochist. Efficient meditation is what I have. 100 meditate actually. And the skill is pretty much completely useless now besides the experience which I couldn't care less about. Im just pissed I wasted my time learning it when 'rest' is now just as good and doesn't require me to waste a bunch of time learning it.

When the hell did 'backstab' become unusable? Oh right, never at least to the baddies.

Maybe you mean the time when people started to give the Rangers shit because they were using a thief skill. If you saw a Crusader or Taniel stealing that raises RP eyebrows. If you saw a Ranger killing people with an underhanded trick, that raises RP eyebrows. The malice was added because people couldn't RP properly so wizards had to make hard code for it.

Rangers already have awesome bows/armours and weapons anyways, not being able to 'backstab' im sure was such a burden because we all know how much -missile- sucks. Guess why the Ranger guild was overhauled? Because people who were in it at the time were not good at roleplaying a Ranger (Im sorry Ralph/Fench/-etc- rangers don't use backstab or give ranger armours to baddies, im much more pleased with your recent choices, they fit your RP much better). The current Rangers are extremely effective at RPing it.

And why am I forced to find another thing to make up for meditate? I did find a good thing to recover, it's called 'meditating' iunno if you've heard of it. Im sorry people thought thieves were bad doing evil things, that tends to happen sometimes *shrug*.

Backstab is still as completely rape as it ever was. And if you try to use the argument that it was made bad to do because of roleplay issues thats total bull. Backstabbing is meant to be a thief skill. Since the skill change you like to bring up again and again meditate is meant to be a skill for people who it makes sense for. If you can work something into your RP and make it make sense, then fine use it without some stupid nerf. The Backstab 'nerf' wasn't even a nerf for the SKILL itself. It made you bad for using an EVIL skill. If you are thief generally you are associated with the scum of the earth. I agree the Crusaders in the past were way too fucking hard on the thief guild. Raiding them was completely uncalled for and I think should only be used in the most extreme of cases. The Meditate nerf is clearly a nerf that targets a specific group for no real good reason.

No Crusader or Ranger or GoodieXYZ can find a good reason to use backstab unless they are planning to go to the evil side. The reputation change did not make it "unusable" and it's not an argument worth mentioning.

I do agree with you on one point. Efficient meditation requires that you work for it. Meditate at 100 I would call "working for it". And there are bonuses to improving things past 40 just so thats clear as well. I stick by my point. If meditate is going to get nerfed for the armour guys, than make the malice it gives disappear if it's improved to the point of 80+.

Also, Skill decay is a big deal IMO. Do you know how long it takes for a skill at 100 to decay to a point where it stops affecting how much you can learn? A -really- -really- long time. Btw it's also really easy to make changes to the game that don't affect you personally in the slightest. How about we wait for the input of people besides myself and Angeal who actually -play- heavy armour characters before listening to all the people who have light armour mains and obviously have some weird grudge/bias about something that happened to them before.

So I see now from your comment Olrane that this really wasn't about RP at all it was just about making life more difficult for the armour wearers. You did say that me finding a reason to do it IC "didn't have a single thing to do with it". You think I powergame? I actually find that kind of insulting. To me someone who powergames is someone who doesn't roleplay at all and just grinds monsters all the time so he can PvP well. I'd find it hard to believe that someone who power games could RP well enough to become the leader of a guild and deal with guild issues (which require constant RP).

In short it's nothing like the god damn backstab change.

Really it just makes roleplaying even harder. Waiting five plus minutes to meditate everytime you get remotely tired prevents alot of talking. And whipping of your armours to meditate naked so it's useful? Sounds like great roleplaying to me!

All people I can think of who use meditate have an IC reason for it anyways. Im hard pressed to think of someone who doesn't.

[Mogwai]

I don't understand how this excess recovery time adds to gameplay. Anyway athletes use meditation via autogenic training so who's to say its so exclusive to just shao-lin or religious basis? where does it ever say that encumbrance should matter for focusing your mind to relax? Why logically should it matter what you are wearing?

At the very least, very physically able characters should get a bonus to resting logically because an a person w/ greater condition is better able to do so as well versus a person who is not.

Its just hard to see how a bunch of chars sitting around and waiting longer adds anything to the game

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogenic_training

[krelji]

where does it ever say that encumbrance should matter for focusing your mind to relax? Why logically should it matter what you are wearing?

I'd expect it to be rather uncomfortable to meditate in heavier armours, and it might
as well make it harder to relax.

At the very least, very physically able characters should get a bonus to resting logically because an a person w/ greater condition is better able to do so as well versus a person who is not.

And chars with high mental stats a bonus to mental recovery? While my char would
certainly enjoy this, I'm not sure if I'd like to see this.

Its just hard to see how a bunch of chars sitting around and waiting longer adds anything to the game

It's not unheard of that people talk while they're waiting for anything.

Why do we keep bringing up "before the skill system change"?

Prior to the skill system change membership in a guild provided a learn bonus for
guild related skills. Without the bonus it usually was very time consuming to improve
skills you had no learnbonus in. These days the skills your char got determine how
difficult it is to learn certain skills.

Maybe you mean the time when people started to give the Rangers shit because they were using a thief skill.

I think this was only the tip of the iceberg. Lots of skills have been traded between
friends, regardless of membership in a guild. I think this was one of the reasons why
you can't learn skills from learnbooks anymore. I can understand though why some
method to restrict usage of certain skills had to be found ICly. The courts have been
added partly to reduce the amount of freelancer thieves IIRC. I think my char even
saw a Taniel Cleric once who was a freelancer.

[ganandorf]

The reason meditate is so overused is because it provides the quickest way to rest up back to full everything. It is undoubtedly the best method.

Changing meditate does make sense. How many times have you guys meditated while hunting in eal deliah? or meditated while working your way toward the insect portal. Cause meditating in a city full of undead or a swamp full of evil stuff makes alot of sense right?

The reality is THERE ARE other ways to recover besides meditate, believe it or not almost all the guilds wearing non-leather have one.

So why not balance out the meditate nerf by buffing other methods of recovering? I know the asrals, sathos, and taniels all have methods that make recovering much faster. The only other heavy armour guild is the crusaders, and i know you too have a recovering method besides meditate that works pretty well. Maybe it doesn't work as well as the other options, and if it really is a big deal, would buffing that abiility really be that much of a problem?

[Brand]

Not to butt heads with anyone, but I can say that as a Firefighter we wear pretty heavy gear on the job. When you first start having to wear all that gear it is very cumbersome and you will fatigue quick. But over time it becomes much easier and it is rather impressive what you are able to do even with the gear on.
My point is this, although I completely disagree with poLuminiers way of getting his point across and his language, I have to say that a character that develops skill with wearing heavy armours should have little to no mali in regards to what they can do while wearing that armour.

"The ability to maneuver in heavy armour, such as
platemail or other types. The higher your skill, the less
armour will hinder your actions, especially in combat."

Doesnt this by definition state that you can do things after developing this skill you wouldnt be able to do in the beginning stages of proficiency?

If any changes need be made my suggestion is include a mali that diminishes as skill with armours and strength develop.

Just to mention the backstab issue, the Rangers were developed as a fantasy version of guerilla fighters. By virtue of this they were intended to use skills that were less 'in your face'. And I have never had anyone explain to me how backstab differs from sneaking in, and shooting an arrow between the mobs eyes, other than the 'satanic smile' thing.
There were some serious RP issues I will admit. And I did not have the time to devote to properly leading the guild. Brand still RP's this fairly well I think but we paid a price for mistakes made. In any event, how is the use of a blade in and of itself good or evil? I mentioned once making a skill similar in effect to backstab called first strike wherein a wielded weapon would be used to deliver a preliminary strike without the satanic smile thing. That would be a perfect substitute RP wise for the Rangers and anyone else who has to use tactics rather than brute force.
Not all characters can 'move west, attack mob, hit by mob with no damage, gore mob, get hit by mob with no damage, bodycheck mob, kill mob'.
When used correctly it adds a great flavor to RP.

Anyhow, back to meditate, very few skills should be blocked based on what someone wears, but adjusting outcomes does make sense. Only allow for increased skill wearing / using / carrying whatever item is being discussed decreasing any mali attached to use of the skill.

[luminier]

Ganon

Does resting of any kind in any of these places really make sense anyways?

Brand

I was pissed what can I say. I get pretty sarcastic and swear when that happens. Sorry about that.

But thanks for the input.

[ganandorf]

No it really doesn't. But hell if you'll do what makes sense and walk all the way back to cities and such to rest. Breeze works well enough, so do cure and flame renewal, our drain works good to. If sanctify doesn't rank up why not get that set to par.

[Abharsair]

OK, everyone please slow down a notch with the accusations.

First of all, we do not enjoy making things harder for anyone. However, if we decide to do such a thing, then only because we think it's better for the entire game. As for meditate, I think it's one of those cases, and here is why:

I've already noticed myself that a large amount of people just plop down and meditate and it has puzzled me quite a bit, especially since it used to be very different, but I figured it was just coincidence. However, now that quite a few people came out of the woods and mentioned the same I guess it's more common than I thought. When I talked to Turian about it he said that he noticed the same thing, but couldn't think of a good solution to fix it. Sure, there's no question that a high meditate skill is right now the most convenient way to recover mental fatigue, but let's look at the implications and forget for a moment the disadvantages your own character might have after a change:

Shaolins, who are chronically understaffed and abused for guild-hopping no longer have any advantage where meditation is concerned. It was different when they were the only guild which had a learn bonus to the skill, but not anymore, and anything which makes the Shaolins more attractive as a guild is a good thing in my book.

Skalds, who offer a song which lets one recover faster are also less attractive right now. Why join a layman guild if one single skill (meditate) can achieve almost the same?

Potions? Why buy a potion and spend some money on something if meditation lets you recover almost as fast and much, much cheaper. Sure, it makes Alchemists less important and keeps more money in the already inflated economy, but it's so much more convenient, right?

The supporting miracles of Clerics are less important. As with Shaolins, I believe anything which makes the non-combat-oriented clerics more attractive is a good thing for the game.

I think those are very important points to take into consideration aside from balance and the "realism" problem, and we should try to come up with solutions which make as many people as happy as possible rather than blame one another for powergaming or being spoilsports. Technically, changing meditation isn't a big deal. As a matter of fact, the new version is already finished, but we won't activate it until there is a satisfying conclusion.

So here are my questions to you:

1) Why don't you use potions? Too expensive? Too hard to come by? Any other reasons? What would make you use them more?

2) Why not become a Skald? Or an Alchemist? Too confusing? Too hard to join? Just not your style?

3) If we change meditation, would you want to exchange your meditation skill for another already existing skill? If so, which ones?

4) Got any other ideas? Services, goods, etc., which could compensate for an altered meditation and which could make you live with the new version?

As most of you already know (hopefully) we really try our best to not screw anyone over, so if you have a good idea/thought, please post.

[krelji]

1) Why don't you use potions? Too expensive? Too hard to come by? Any other reasons? What would make you use them more?

I'm one of those using potions rather regulary and alongside with meditation.
I think shop prices for potions could be reduced quite a bit, as they're rather high
right now. When my char is selling potions (it's a rare thing, but it happens) the
prices are generally accepted I think.

Many char seem to expect to be accepted just because they ask though. My char
tends to talk with them for a rather long time, and usually sends them away with
some task(s) they have to finish prior to getting accepted. My char doesn't like it
too much when applicants are totally unprepared for the possible invitation.

2) Why not become a Skald? Or an Alchemist? Too confusing? Too hard to join? Just not your style?

As for joining the alchemists guild, I don't think it's too hard to join them - at least
for the majority of chars.

3) If we change meditation, would you want to exchange your meditation skill for another already existing skill? If so, which ones?

Personally I'd like to keep meditation, since my char tends to be low on mana most
of the time, and he can't brew nearly enough potions to compensate for that. If there
was a skill that would assist him with recovering mana, I could live with it I guess.

4) Got any other ideas? Services, goods, etc., which could compensate for an altered meditation and which you could make you live with it?

I don't have any ideas right now, and increasing the growth rate of herbs certainly
won't help much. It would only increase the amount of people who'd attempt to
make a living from selling herbs.

[caelia]

1) Why don't you use potions? Too expensive? Too hard to come by? Any other reasons? What would make you use them more?

From the customer's standpoint there are a few problems with potions - they basically have to be purchased from a PC alchemist, because they're too expensive in the guild shop. And even when they're purchased, the customer probably isn't good enough at alchemy to tell how much of its useful life is left. On the selling end, it's no fun to brew a lot of potions I'm not sure I'll be able to sell. If I have a big inventory, then some of it will probably go to waste, or some bum could mug me to get himself completely potted by drinking too many potions.

As an alchemist I would like to be able to brew potions to stock the guild shop, but I think a coca potion would be worth some silvers, not a few gold, which is what I think they go for in the shop. (The same is true of heal disease potions, where the price is especially outrageous).

I'm pretty sure that a coca potion addresses only fatigue and not stamina (if I remember which is which), leaving some temptation to meditate just to catch one's breath (Caelia will usually rest in these situations, which I believe to be better RP).

2) Why not become a Skald? Or an Alchemist? Too confusing? Too hard to join? Just not your style?

Both of these open up their own respective cans of worms, since each guild has its own reasons to want people to join for some larger purpose than getting certain skills.

There are a handful of master alchemists running around and the alchemists' guild is much easier to join now than it was a year ago. Nor is perfecting the skill altogether hard, in my opinion. My opinion is not that the alchemists guild is "too hard" - but to advance you have to engage in some actual effort (potion research), and I would expect that not everyone would find this to be entertaining. (The guild was more of a beehive of social activity when it was in Elvandar).