War

[luminier]

How should this properly be roleplayed? Every war I've ever heard of In geas ended really way worse than it should have.

Tips or hints?

[gojin]

Good question and not an easy one to answer. Some thoughts:

1)It would be nice if there were some sort of tangible victory. What are you fighting for? What is your opponent fighting for? Can either of these goals be accomplished IC? The war should be about fulfilling these goals and not so much about body counts. If neither of you have a goal and are just racking up PVP kills then it will end as badly as all its predecessors.

2)Perhaps there can be some sort of OOC agreement between the dueling parties? Off the top of my head - Party 1 wagers 'removing watchtower from this area', Party 2 wagers 'watchtower remains in this area without trouble for x amount of IC yrs'. First party to X amount of PKs wins.

Roleplay should figure itself out once there is an established form of victory.

My 2cc

[lanyara]

I am not sure how one can "roleplay" war, usually it is just PvP.

I haven't seen non PvP wars.

Anyway this really and usually ... actually, completely depends on the characters and players involved here. I don't think there can be a general "guideline" ... it might be best if warring factions usually try to focus on specific goals, reasons, what motivates a character, and also what is of "best interest" towards the character, deities involved and so forth. But as said ... different players will play differently.

@Gojins example is nice but requires an OOC agreement. This is not always possible or wanted by all players involved especially if one side demands more.
(It usually is complicated as well the longer a conflicts last)

[Delmon]

we need arresting fixed. I'm done with aiding unconscious people and then watching them run. My character would not let that happen. And this time the character that ran had no hands!!

Yeah, ok, the code allows escapes, and no way to bind once arrested.

What's also allowed in the code is looting and ransacking guild halls. I'm tired of trying to play nice and then watching the victim get away after strategically winning a fight. So, I guess some people like playing at minimum stats.

[luminier]

Well I wasn't specifically talking about the war between the Crusaders and the Asrals, but, it was one of the driving forces for me creating this topic.

It isn't annoying to me to kill someone over and over if their role play doesn't change. But I would like to see conflicts end after a while. Ever conflict starts to get boring to role play after a while. And right now, for me, the conflict is just boring. Empty threats, the Crusader's enemies die over and over, offered a treaty many times, now I've stepped up to some more "get their attention" ideas. Oh well, it's boring, but Ill play it out.

And like Lanyara said not all people feel like some OOC terms, and im a firm believer that most if not all things should be at least attempted at a solution IC.

Fixing arrest would be nice, but try to keep that to that topic, don't bring it into the War topic I made.

[Skragna]

I have a wonderful idea! Let's take the whole Crusade, and we'll go on a lovely little romp through scenic Asador! We can even bring the bonepriests back home for a wonderful bonfire! It'll have everything we all like! Screaming deathpriests, a cozy fire, and a trip through scenic terrain!

[gojin]

If killing your enemies over and over doesnt convince them to surrender then its up to you to figure out something that will. Or you can simply ignore them if they really are no threat to you.

I am not one of those that criticized the Asrals of a few years ago when they would not surrender after being defeated over and over. Why should they? It obviously wasnt a great concern for them to die repeatedly. Their cause was more important than their lives which imo is exactly how the Asrals are written to be played. As it stands they fight a losing battle but would a true Asral believe that is any reason to stop fighting?

Honestly, Id prefer if the Crusade would just conquer Arborea already. Enforce their laws and drive the Asrals out to Bandama then beat them outta there and into Asador. They are more than capable. A good twenty or so IC years of Crusader rule over all of Forostar is what will probably occur if everyone 'plays correctly' and Im a bit dissapointed the Cruxies havent made this happen already.

Point being, if the current wars bore you, its up to you to make them exciting.

[Mogwai]

If killing your enemies over and over doesnt convince them to surrender then its up to you to figure out something that will. Or you can simply ignore them if they really are no threat to you.

I am not one of those that criticized the Asrals of a few years ago when they would not surrender after being defeated over and over. Why should they? It obviously wasnt a great concern for them to die repeatedly. Their cause was more important than their lives which imo is exactly how the Asrals are written to be played. As it stands they fight a losing battle but would a true Asral believe that is any reason to stop fighting?


Point being, if the current wars bore you, its up to you to make them exciting.

heres the problem I have with this.
This is not really much of a war, a massacre is more appropriate to the situation.
the asrals have cheapened their lives so much. If the RP was so important, they would be trying to honor asral with their performance in battle...
not be rider lance fodder...
Theres no logic in getting your ass beat repeated months in game on end.
I understand that sometimes people can be religious zealots that are willing to give their lives blah blah blah, but at the end of the day the fact that they gave THEIR ONLY LIFE made it their defining moment.
just saying religious zealots that go on suicide missions are simply predictable
-yes we catch you and you spit on us a bunch then we burn you-
wash, rinse, and repeat

what do you suggest we do gojin?

[luminier]

And what do you do when you've killed them over and over, offered a treaty, punished them, and taken their armours? Im out of ideas.

Sure dying over and over is maybe what Asrals wants technically... but those people in legend died forever when they died to insects. Resurrection isn't something to be abused IMO, if you die it should be fairly serious and you should thank the gods for each life or at least try to seem upset about dying and do something to change it. Anyways, the Crusaders carry just as much conviction (if not more) to their cause and you never see them dying over and over like this without trying to change something.

Im almost positive you are joking about that last comment there. We both know Arborea becoming Elvandar2 would be really boring. And if it was sarcastic, Im asking for a solution, and the sarcasm doesn't help much...

How would you make a war exciting with people that will only roleplay the "you're an idiot" angle?

[ganandorf]

They do have a fort that's not invincible.

[luminier]

Part of the reason I brought this topic up generally. I don't want to discuss IC things here lol.

[Skragna]

I'm still all for going out and burning down something of theirs, or perhaps seeing if a truce can be struck for the time being. Every time the Asrals set a Sathonite on fire and behead him, it's one less we have to fight. Surely they can see that getting killed over and over is NOT what Asral wants. I, myself, see Asral as a god of righteous anger, who delights in battle, but only WHEN battle is a feasible idea... I mean, someone who is a fresh worshipper of Asral should NOT expect to be able to go toe to toe with Luminier and stay breathing. It just don't happen. And yet, that's what they do. Even veteran players get their heads split open by that fugly lance, I'm sure. When you ARE that kind of firepower, just crushing heads isn't what you need to do. Try and offer them a ceasefire and get them to turn against your enemies, to let them get some of the bad blood out when you go and help them, and to give them something constructive to do.

[Desiderea]

Hm... do you think there should be a coded way to "win" a war?

I was part of a long and pointless war on my old mud... and it did just get boring and ridiculous after awhile, because both sides were set in their beliefs and we were at a stalemate and the only thing to do was keep killing each other over and over. Frankly, I think it would have been going against my side's rp to try and forgive things or come to a compromise, but we got to a point where we wanted to say, "Okay, just forget it ever happened!" How would you find a reasonable roleplayed solution?

I do think that if one side is clearly winning the war, they should be able to actually "win" in some way, and the other side shouldn't just keep attacking them as if they aren't getting their arses kicked. But, as with the Asrals example, surrender is not really something they would consider an option. No one really wants to admit defeat either. So, how would you end that sort of stalemate if coming to terms with each other doesn't seem possible... and you want to avoid getting to the point when players are pissed off about it ooc?

[gojin]

I do think that if one side is clearly winning the war, they should be able to actually "win" in some way, and the other side shouldn't just keep attacking them as if they aren't getting their arses kicked. But, as with the Asrals example, surrender is not really something they would consider an option. No one really wants to admit defeat either. So, how would you end that sort of stalemate if coming to terms with each other doesn't seem possible... and you want to avoid getting to the point when players are pissed off about it ooc?

These are my thoughts also and what I tried to convey in my original post. The ideas I offered were off the cuff and not well thought out, they were just suggestions. If anyone has others Id love to hear them.

And what do you do when you've killed them over and over, offered a treaty, punished them, and taken their armours? Im out of ideas.

Im almost positive you are joking about that last comment there. We both know Arborea becoming Elvandar2 would be really boring. And if it was sarcastic, Im asking for a solution, and the sarcasm doesn't help much...

I was absolutely not being sarcastic. Geas has changed/progressed when rp demanded it before. I didnt want to discuss too much IC but really the Crusade is in position to dominate all of the continent. If some guild bothers you so much why not just crush it? Destroy it, threaten their very existence. You are more than capable and not doing so because having an 'Elvandar 2' would be boring is bad rp imo.

If OOC agreements are a distasteful solution then let things play out through IC rp. Dont play the middle ground holding back your rp because of some OOC concerns. This kind of 'fence sitting' actually makes it difficult for the other side to rp things correctly also. They have shown you that what you're currently doing(killing them repeatedly) isnt enough to make them stop. So its up to you to do more. If it means taking over the continent do so. If it means destroying a guild by all means attempt to do so. Let others react to your actions as you have already admitted that the way things are now are boring.

[Minariel]

Okay... let's look at this from a realistic point of view.

How long has war gone on in the Gaza Strip? Some wars that seem pointless to people on the outside are more important than their own lives and wellbeing to those involved.
Complicate that with the fact that death in this game, while it takes a little while to recover from, isn't really that big of a deal...

Boring? Yes. However, I believe that an ongoing, pointless war is fairly realistic. There's just no way to coerce the opposing side into surrender when there are few ways to /actually/ hurt the opposing side.

I know that buildings and such have been burned down in the past, probably through Wizzy intervention... maybe something like that would be a good idea for a coded way to 'win' a war.

Alternately, there's the whole 'capture the flag' method, in stealing orbs and such... which still doesn't get one side or the other to actually give way.

For a war to actually end in a game where death isn't permanent, there needs to be a way to hurt the opposing side until they either don't want to, or are unable to fight any longer. That's the nature of war.

I can't imagine why, realistically, the Crusade hasn't mustered it's power and burned Asador to the ground... except that it's not possible. It's understandable from a game balance point of view, but frustrating when there is no way to stop things once they get boring.

[Arwenth]

Honestly, Id prefer if the Crusade would just conquer Arborea already. Enforce their laws and drive the Asrals out to Bandama then beat them outta there and into Asador. They are more than capable. A good twenty or so IC years of Crusader rule over all of Forostar is what will probably occur if everyone 'plays correctly' and Im a bit dissapointed the Cruxies havent made this happen already.

First of all Correct me if I'm wrong, but the city of Arborea while being the major city with an Asralite temple doesn't seem to be backing either side in this war. In fact I'm at least once or twice I've heard the notion of banning both guilds from enter the city due to the war, and Melba is already banished. Given that from what I've seen they just don't seem to care about the city I personally don't see this doing any good.

Secondly while the Crusade has the power to just march into towns and take them over, the Crusade point blank range just doesn't care about mortal law. Taking to account from what I've seen in character, my character is the one of the few concerned about the law, and that's only because she likes making divine and mortal law match up. So RP-wise none of the Crusaders from what I can see would just suggest to take over the city so in my humble opinion it would be bad RP if people who have no interest in conquest and government just decided to siege a city.

But on the topic of wars...In a more general way.

In my previous experience elsemud wars were fought using a combination of pk and the killing of NPCs. Another method was holding people hostage. I'm not sure how holding people hostage would work in Geas mainly due to the timing issue of it.

I think it would be interesting to kidnap people and instead of ransoming them, the people who want them back break into where they are being held and bust them out.

As for a tangible victory, I think that financing for a war should be important. If you cannot afford to fight a war or get people to give you money to fight it with then perhaps not being able to fight an all out war?

Also beyond that, I think the cities where wars are being fought should be more involved. Any time a war is being fought and your people are getting killed in the crossfire that's bad for the people in charge. Perhaps that's how finances can link in, each of the guilds at war are charge fees for bringing their war somewhere it's not wanted or they are banned by default.

Also as far as tangible victory goes, perhaps artifacts can come into play here as well?

[lanyara]

I think it would be interesting to kidnap people and instead of ransoming them, the people who want them back break into where they are being held and bust them out.

Except for ruthless characters who not even care about this at all ...

[ganandorf]

I think it would be interesting to kidnap people and instead of ransoming them, the people who want them back break into where they are being held and bust them out.

Except for ruthless characters who not even care about this at all ...

And the fact that the crusader keep is practically invincible, holding a hostage somewhere else just wouldnt make much sense for you guys.

[Arwenth]

I think it would be interesting to kidnap people and instead of ransoming them, the people who want them back break into where they are being held and bust them out.

Except for ruthless characters who not even care about this at all ...

And the fact that the crusader keep is practically invincible, holding a hostage somewhere else just wouldnt make much sense for you guys.

My suggestion was meant to be general for anyone fighting a war now or in the future, not wars that involve the crusade (but I'm slowly getting the feeling that all of them do...)

Also on the note of the castle having never attacked it or having heard anything about it being attacked, I'd have to admit I'm pretty fail in regards that other hearing about crossbowmen in the canyon I don't really know of what makes it a stronghold. I don't really know that much about breaking into other people's guilds to begin with...

[gojin]

First of all Correct me if I'm wrong, but the city of Arborea while being the major city with an Asralite temple doesn't seem to be backing either side in this war. In fact I'm at least once or twice I've heard the notion of banning both guilds from enter the city due to the war, and Melba is already banished. Given that from what I've seen they just don't seem to care about the city I personally don't see this doing any good.

Secondly while the Crusade has the power to just march into towns and take them over, the Crusade point blank range just doesn't care about mortal law. Taking to account from what I've seen in character, my character is the one of the few concerned about the law, and that's only because she likes making divine and mortal law match up. So RP-wise none of the Crusaders from what I can see would just suggest to take over the city so in my humble opinion it would be bad RP if people who have no interest in conquest and government just decided to siege a city.

Ive never played a crux but isnt the ideal of the crusade to have all mortals follow the 'good' and 'moral' laws of their gods. What better way than to abolish all other laws(governments) and simply enact crusader rule over the entire continent? If i had a crux char this would be his major motivation but like I said I never have so perhaps I am way off.

As for Arborea, I think its a perfect example of how crusade muscle leads to good rp possibilities. Arborea doesnt take part in the war partly, if not completely, because they want to maintain some sort of autonomy and know that if they jump on the side of the Asrals that they will quickly be conquered by the crusade. Im not a cohort of the judge of arborea but I imagine its fun balancing enforcing the laws and not pissing off the crux. At least it should be. I always picture a board meeting with Andy, Veriya and whoever else is in charge of Arborea trying to figure out ways to keep the city afloat inmidst of all the conflict. Point being, when the crusade acts it forces others to react and creates fun.

As for a tangible victory, I think that financing for a war should be important. If you cannot afford to fight a war or get people to give you money to fight it with then perhaps not being able to fight an all out war.

I wish I was clever enough to figure out a way to make this work. Working resources into the equation would be awesome.

After some discussion the question that needs answering is pretty clear to me. Can tangible victory be achieved and if so what does it look like?