War

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lanyara
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Re: War

#21 Post by lanyara » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:52 pm

What better way than to abolish all other laws(governments) and simply enact crusader rule over the entire continent?
I think one problem here is ... what to do when everything is black/white?

If there would be more areas... more guilds ... more players ... more wizards .. this might be fun to have, even if only for some IC time. But it would also cut away on available options if everything is extreme black/white. You'd either join the good side, or the evil side, and that would it be. (Actually ... the evil side already seems quite unpopular. I really don't know of that many evil characters that really sustain playing over a long time)
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Re: War

#22 Post by gojin » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:30 pm

My point was its entirely possible and if you rp without OOC concerns then it is entirely probable. Playing halfway where you have full ability to crush someone but dont leads to things like the current state of wars which some find 'boring'.

So, either
1) find an OOC/IC tangible form of victory
2) Rp without OOC concerns and win this way(Crusader Continent)
3) Keep the status quo and kill opponents over and over without any outcome

Are there any other feasable options?

Edit---

I dont think it would be too black and white. I see the Crusaders as very gray as it stands now. If the middle ground and evil chars dont like it its up to them to find an IC solution. I dont like the idea of holding back rp and have found that it causes more problems than it solves. Just my opinion.
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Re: War

#23 Post by lanyara » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:50 pm

Well (3) sounds pretty boring since there isn't much room to change a given situation. You just have to repeat the same again and again. I really think, sooner or later, this will start to become less interesting over an extended period of time, since there wouldn't be a real way to change it.

(2) may be fun for certain characters definitely, but I think from a broader perspective it is a bit unfair. The reason I say this is not entirely because of crusaders (or any other guild that is stronger), but ... I think it is a lot easier to play on any stronger side, and then have the "stronger" side win as a result. To put a drastic example ... pitch a side with 5 characters who have an online time of let's say 15 days each, against 3 characters who have an online time of 100 days each. I think that the 3 characters usually have a much higher chance to win. So players would rather prefer to stick to the stronger and winning side than play the underdog.

(1) is probably the best solution. It however is pretty hard if the other side (or all involves sides) do not want to "give in" for whatever reason. And repeated kills wouldn't really change this that much.
Are there any other feasable options?
Death penalty could become more severe. Or some other code changes could occur that may play a role in such scenarios.

As far as RP scenarios are considered, without much OOC consideration hmm.
You could try to push the other side into a position where they lose as well, despite "winning". Usually conflict requires effort ... it is a little bit strange to think about the playing time here, but hey. It's a strategy as well! Get killed again and again until the other side is simply bored of it. :P

Actually, if ALL sides involved don't want to change a given situation at all, and even constant war doesn't change that, I guess ... then I really wouldn't know what to do. I've also never seen guild wars that really did last for a very long time.

Perhaps if conflicts last for a really really long time, and continue to last, then they should shape the game world significantly and decisively.

But (1) really seems by far to be the best option, and would probably require less coding changes by wizards as well. My comment about black/white was mostly meant in regards to Asral. The game world right now has a very strong focus on good vs. evil, with the crusaders easily being the guild that can shape the game world into their direction. The "evil" side may be stronger, but if noone plays there really and sustains it, then ... what can they do? :P
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Re: War

#24 Post by isengoo » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:10 pm

To be honest I think the main problem here is that the Crusaders guild is much more recent, and therefore coded more appropriately, than most other guilds. They completely outmatch every other guild in terms of abilities and goals. Like poGojin said, if they wanted to, they could with ease dominate the entire continent. If you ask me that is a problem. I really believe every other guild is simply disadvantaged in regards to skills and abilities compared to the Crusaders, which makes for an uneven playing ground.

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Re: War

#25 Post by isengoo » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:12 pm

btw, I'm not saying that I think the Crusaders are completely overpowered or anything like that. It's just that most guilds lack a particular purpose and certain abilities which might be able to overcome the Crusaders' power.

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Re: War

#26 Post by Olrane » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:05 pm

isengoo wrote:btw, I'm not saying that I think the Crusaders are completely overpowered or anything like that. It's just that most guilds lack a particular purpose and certain abilities which might be able to overcome the Crusaders' power.
It's not just skills and abilities. There are many skills and abilities that are very powerful and could be used against the Crusaders.

The problem has been, and always will be (as far as the Crusade being a dominating force in the world), that their actions are mostly sanctioned by the general public. Revolutionaries, if and when they appear, often use tactics that are frowned upon or are assumed to have ulterior motives. It's hard to fault Crusaders for their style of warfare, for instance, against which guerilla warfare might be powerful but unacceptable.

Being branded as evil is almost entirely impossible to undo and is incredible easy to discover with auras. Luckily, that was nerfed in times past - the Crusade "REVEAL" trick all but destroyed any chance of there being any up-and-coming adversaries to the Crusade.

Another further problem is that the MUD is incredibly polarizing. You are either good-confirmed, on the fence and ignored, or a complete outlaw. It was hellish to me (and eventually too unfun to sustain) to watch Olrane descend into complete evil by necessity (protection and allies) when his original goal was simply to cause a little bit of chaos.

Everyone knows you don't fuck with the Crusade. You can't fuck with the Crusade. You act against the Empire and you'll lose all of your friends and suffer a thousand deaths. They are ALWAYS overstaffed, whereas difficult guilds to play such as the Sathonites, Order, or the thieves are understaffed and driven into hiding more often than not.

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Re: War

#27 Post by isengoo » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:42 pm

I agree with what you emphasize but the main point remains - the Crusader abilities are incredibly strong. Sanctuary + 10' radius + the other one = almost complete immunity to anything evil. How are the evils supposed to counter that?

To counterpoint this, though, I remember a fight where Isen was mindblasted to nothingness and the evils totally trounced the goodies. They did have a revenant with them, though, and the ground was totally in their favor... if that's what it takes to beat a few goods... I don't know. That seems pretty steep.

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Re: War

#28 Post by Mogwai » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:06 am

isengoo wrote:I agree with what you emphasize but the main point remains - the Crusader abilities are incredibly strong. Sanctuary + 10' radius + the other one = almost complete immunity to anything evil. How are the evils supposed to counter that?

To counterpoint this, though, I remember a fight where Isen was mindblasted to nothingness and the evils totally trounced the goodies. They did have a revenant with them, though, and the ground was totally in their favor... if that's what it takes to beat a few goods... I don't know. That seems pretty steep.
Albeit the crusader abilities seem strong, I find that there are a few very powerful crusaders which make the crusade strong. Its irksome to hear how the crusader abilities are all that. A smart or cunning opponent can wreak havoc. Evils certainly have their benefits as well and asrals as well. crusaders have had to make strategic adjustments for such opponents. the whole thing about complete immunity to anything evil is not really true, I remember a variety of priests...some are fearsome...

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Re: War

#29 Post by Skragna » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:41 am

Skragna, who is a Crusader, has been killed I don't know how many times due to simple things like an arrow to the leg, or undead just slicing through his protection. We're not all THAT powerful... it's just Luminier.

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Re: War

#30 Post by lanyara » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:16 am

Another smaller problem: tshaharks. I am still not sure why there are not more tshaharks but if you see a tshahark and that tshahark sticks to be active then it is usually a crusader tshahark. There doesn't seem to be any alternative for a tshahark character who really plays AND is involved in any kind of PvP situation for a longer period. Sure Yegerfin is the shaolin tshahark but also a quite ancient character. (And also shaolins must be good or neutral)

Can tshaharks not be evil? If dumb + good is possible then dumb + evil should be possible as well. Right now it just seems as if you are evil, you are cut off from quite many fun things.
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Re: War

#31 Post by Arwenth » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:59 am

This is going to long.
Ive never played a crux but isnt the ideal of the crusade to have all mortals follow the 'good' and 'moral' laws of their gods. What better way than to abolish all other laws(governments) and simply enact crusader rule over the entire continent? If i had a crux char this would be his major motivation but like I said I never have so perhaps I am way off.


No, that’s not to my understanding the ideal of the Crusade. To use a quote ‘We are fairly strictly the personal asskickers for Taniel and Evren to put it bluntly.’ People break the laws of the good gods, we punish them. Enacting Crusader rule would fall apart for several reasons, the biggest of which in my mind is: None of the Crusaders currently have a character who cares enough about mortal law or cities and territory to suggest taking over Forostar and Arwenth as a Chevalier would be opposed to it. The Crusade suddenly taking over all of Fororstar based on the RP I have seen and Arwenth’s interaction with Luminier and the other Crusaders would make very little sense.
isengoo wrote:To be honest I think the main problem here is that the Crusaders guild is much more recent, and therefore coded more appropriately, than most other guilds. They completely outmatch every other guild in terms of abilities and goals. Like poGojin said, if they wanted to, they could with ease dominate the entire continent. If you ask me that is a problem. I really believe every other guild is simply disadvantaged in regards to skills and abilities compared to the Crusaders, which makes for an uneven playing ground.
As long as Crusaders are not fireproof, bonespear proof and curse proof I think that other guilds do have a chance. Not everyone in the Crusade is Luminier, Adanath and Mogwai. Two bone priests and some undead can apparently kill 4 buffed Crusaders a ranger and chase off 2 other Crusaders and a cleric. Not to mention there are certain weapons that particular evildoers have that wreck havoc.

And if it is really a matter of the Crusade being more recently coded that other guilds then perhaps we should hold off on other ideas we’ve been suggesting and help the staff update the other guilds.
The problem has been, and always will be (as far as the Crusade being a dominating force in the world), that their actions are mostly sanctioned by the general public. Revolutionaries, if and when they appear, often use tactics that are frowned upon or are assumed to have ulterior motives. It's hard to fault Crusaders for their style of warfare, for instance, against which guerilla warfare might be powerful but unacceptable.
Maybe I just fail at being a Crusader, but it seems to me that if you play a Crusader everyone either hates you or they consider you one of the few nice ones and you get to hear everyone’s complaints about how the Crusade is a bunch of bullies or doing your job makes you mean and please dear goodness don’t let the Lord Marshall do something people don’t like or you will never hear the end of it.

If the problem is that everyone approves of the Crusade then why doesn’t every keep doing what they’re doing and RPing from the angle that they hate the Crusade and start asking judges to ban them from cities and such.
Another further problem is that the MUD is incredibly polarizing. You are either good-confirmed, on the fence and ignored, or a complete outlaw. It was hellish to me (and eventually too unfun to sustain) to watch Olrane descend into complete evil by necessity (protection and allies) when his original goal was simply to cause a little bit of chaos.

Everyone knows you don't fuck with the Crusade. You can't fuck with the Crusade. You act against the Empire and you'll lose all of your friends and suffer a thousand deaths. They are ALWAYS overstaffed, whereas difficult guilds to play such as the Sathonites, Order, or the thieves are understaffed and driven into hiding more often than not.
As far as the Crusade being overstaffed, when I made Arwenth the *only* Crusader I ever saw regularly was Luminier. I met Adanath and then after I became a Crusader the only other Crusader I ever regularly saw after a while was Luminier. Then there was a point where Luminier was around less often and unless everyone else was hiding from the watchtowers and purposely avoiding using the line, it seemed like there was a period where I was the ONLY Crusader online. There are tons of Crusaders sure, but not all of them play regularly and even in game it’s been mentioned how lately the Crusade suddenly just has this overwhelmingly strong presence.

Secondly while I agree that the mud is slanted towards being good it is my understand guilds like The Order and the Thieves guild are supposed to be mysterious and secretive. In fact I’ve ICly heard the Thieves guild referred to as the Shadow Lurkers. So it’s not just because the Crusade is a pressing force. I still haven’t figured out how you are supposed to be a follower of Lilith since goblinoids attack on sight and both shrines to Lilith are in the middle of places where everyone goes to train.

Then beyond that Asador is locked to people who haven’t given permission from my understanding, so when everyone is essentially muscled into being around the good guys who constantly make it clear they won’t be your friend if you’re evil then I don’t think it’s fair to blame the Crusade alone for the fact no one wants to risk being evil. Even though the law in Elvandar says you can be a follower of Lilith or Sathonys and still enter the city/be a citizen/etc the player characters are taking steps to bar anyone evil out without hesitation. I remember getting a letter about two characters being banned from ever joining the scribes because they were having a conversation one of them mentioned a book written about Sathonys alleviating suffering or something.

Other player characters, independent of the Crusade are making decisions that make it harder to be evil. I mean one of the last times I played Arwenth I had someone come up to me and tell me that wanted to let me know and mailed another of the Crusaders because they overheard someone had horrible karma and they made a sarcastic remark about it.

If people want there to be evil doers and stuff then everyone can’t RP in a good-oriented manner and expect there to be evil. If you become a thief you automatically end up with black karma from becoming good at it so it becomes incredibly hard; albeit impossible to be a neutral thief or at least a not totally evil one. You can’t be an evil alchemist or an evil scribe either. All my examples lean to the point I’m making that it’s not just the Crusade deterring people from becoming evil it’s a lot bigger than that. There are RP and code slanted biases towards being good and the only way to get rid of them is to change them.
lanyara wrote:Another smaller problem: tshaharks. I am still not sure why there are not more tshaharks but if you see a tshahark and that tshahark sticks to be active then it is usually a crusader tshahark. There doesn't seem to be any alternative for a tshahark character who really plays AND is involved in any kind of PvP situation for a longer period. Sure Yegerfin is the shaolin tshahark but also a quite ancient character. (And also shaolins must be good or neutral)

Can tshaharks not be evil? If dumb + good is possible then dumb + evil should be possible as well. Right now it just seems as if you are evil, you are cut off from quite many fun things.
I don't think we see alot of Asral tshaharks because Arborea is blatantly racist against them, and especially not now considering the current Avatar is also blatantly racist against tshaharks. I'm not sure why they are no evil sathos tshaharks...I figured it was due to the fact they were created to hunt insects that none of them follow sathonys..In fact I've never heard of a Sathonite tshahark. I think one of the reasons the Shaolin are either neutral or good is because of the large number of good characters and because it's hard to be true neutral and even harder to be evil.

And this concludes the 2cc from the sick insomniac who instead of sleeping is sitting on the internet during wee hours of the morning.
“He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.”

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Re: War

#32 Post by lanyara » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:19 am

Hmm, I was about to write something long but I think I focus on only one aspect.
I still haven’t figured out how you are supposed to be a follower of Lilith since goblinoids attack on sight and both shrines to Lilith are in the middle of places where everyone goes to train.
At least in the past wearing an amulet was granting you immunity from attacks (I never had a Lilith or Sathonys worshipper so I don't even remember for sure.) It shouldn't be that difficult to overhaul the area and give these evil worshippers (another?) area to hide/live in if that is wanted.

It sure is a training area filled with monsters for characters to kill right now, but it "always used to be" that way as well. Any change would just require ideas, descriptions and some coding efforts (and of course the admin/domain wizards giving the ok to such changes)
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Re: War

#33 Post by Olrane » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:09 am

Sorry to Arwenth and to any Crusade players I may have offended.

Look, I like the Crusade in general, but Arwenth brings up the excellent point that it's a very deep bias in the MUD which makes so many characters unplayable, not just the Crusade. If anyone acts up in any measurable way, however, it's the Crusade that will tirelessly hunt them down.

And about the "overstaffed" comment...Pound for pound, unfortunately, some of the stronger Crusaders are worth two of many weaker characters. Whenever there is so much as a second Crusader or Taniel Cleric to help the first, you get the ridiculous power of the team combat skill combined with the cunning of two players who are usually linked with a line item. Two is an army. That's how I feel for most PvP related guilds. The Crusade has consistently had players step up, even from hiatus, if a threat reared its head. The Crusade is the absolute number 1 PvP guild in goals and function: while they may kill undeads or do any other sort of thing, they exist primarily to hunt down and destroy other PCs. No other guild has such focus.

So then, back to my point: when I said that their actions were sanctioned, Arwenth, I meant not so much that people like them, but they will always be tolerated and essentially allowed to work in the open.
Evils can't so much as train nearly as easily; secrecy usually means that you forgo teamwork.

I don't really have a solution :? I'm mostly just ranting. The Crusade isn't doing anything wrong. I'm just bummed that they're so strong and their enemies, excepting Sathonite priests, are rarely able to stand up or even avoid them effectively in the long run. It's killing the diversity here.

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Re: War

#34 Post by Mogwai » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:10 pm

lanyara wrote:Another smaller problem: tshaharks. I am still not sure why there are not more tshaharks but if you see a tshahark and that tshahark sticks to be active then it is usually a crusader tshahark. There doesn't seem to be any alternative for a tshahark character who really plays AND is involved in any kind of PvP situation for a longer period. Sure Yegerfin is the shaolin tshahark but also a quite ancient character. (And also shaolins must be good or neutral)

Can tshaharks not be evil? If dumb + good is possible then dumb + evil should be possible as well. Right now it just seems as if you are evil, you are cut off from quite many fun things.
there isn't really a place for tshaharks in the evils honestly, dumb + evil = guildless <----really quite the problem. Unless you could have a tshahark form corrupted into some kind of sathonite beast there really isn't any place for a tshahark unless one who wants to be a guildless meat shield. Theres two places for the tshahark guild wise: shao-lin or crusade
But it makes some sense, darkelves are likely to be evils, and tshaharks are likely to be not evil.

Is there any ideas for a tangible way to win a war?

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Re: War

#35 Post by lanyara » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:16 pm

Is there any ideas for a tangible way to win a war?
It could be tied to activity. If a side stays inactive for too long it would lose. :D (Alternatively, there should also be incentives to remain active)

Or you really simply count PvP situations and if you lose too many times you get to have more and more penalties. More vit loss, or simply longer to recover and so on... and at the end of the day, if the vitality is too low, the character would be permadeathed.
(Yes yes everyone will hate this situation, but I just want to mention it. My reason for "permadeath" or at least mentioning it, is that gods would not want to ressurrect someone who would die again and again and again. I know this has no real chance to be implemented, because there are also other things to consider... playability, or power gap differences between characters/guild, but in principle i really think at least for ROLEPLAY reason the "permadeath" argument should not be completely forbidden. And you could even have a "group ritual" to bring back characters who are considered "permadeath" anyway, so it wouldn't be really 100% permadeath... if it is a popular character and the PO wants to continue with that char, just ress him again.)

Poor tshaharks though. Except for crusaders and shaolins noone wants to have them in their guild...

*still hopes for a ritual to transform tshahark scales into insect "scales"*
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Re: War

#36 Post by caelia » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:55 pm

This is getting a bit off topic, but poOlrane has had me thinking about his comments for a while now.

The pendulum does swing. There have been more than a few times (even recently) when the evil side seemed invincible, and with the right tactics, a lone Satho can still give even a group of good characters a good deal of trouble.

I remember the times when Arwenth was basically the only Crusader, and I was basically the only experienced Cleric (and not nearly as strong then as I am now) - and worse, our playing times only overlapped so often. Only recently, with the addition of a few high-profile recruits, have they become the massive force that they just weren't for almost the whole of 2009.

It's definitely true that a strong Crusader is very hard to kill, probably more so than a strong ranger or monk or cleric of whatever. Becoming a strong Crusader is yet another thing, and behind the current senior Crusaders are some intense and very skilled players.


Crusader amazingness, in my opinion, comes not just from the code - they have dedicated characters, clarity of purpose, and good roleplay; there just aren't many other guilds where every member has lined up so consistently behind the leader, dedicated to a common purpose. With that said, I think there are a few things Crusaders have that other guilds don't.

The big one, in my mind, is a natural companion guild. Even a very young cleric of Taniel can dramatically extend the lifespan, capabilities, and mobility of a Crusader, and the abilities of the two guilds complement each other well. This acts as something of a check on the Crusade (although I'm sure many of you will say it's not much of one, and you'd be largely correct) - but there are certain things that the Clerics of Taniel will not help the Crusaders with. Only a few of you can really appreciate this, but cooperation between the two guilds is not automatic... sometimes Luminier makes this require work. ;) But it's definitely a net positive for us - playing is more enjoyable when I feel useful, and their need for my skills means that I often do.

Perhaps there some ways to duplicate this effect this in other guilds. This would require, I think, some sort of "camaraderie bonus" for teaming with one's guild members - something like the Crusaders' "battle cry" ability, or perhaps even something that works automatically, to go one better. This would be a check on rogue characters (who wouldn't have these benefits unless they could convince their guildmates to join them) and on the Crusaders (who would have to deal with the combined might of buffed teams working against them, if they really start annoying people).

Perhaps another limitation is ability against undead. I think it's rather appropriate that not everyone has abilities to counteract them - and while Clerics of Taniel are easily the best at fighting undead, Crusaders are a very close second. If, say, the Shao-Lin somehow turned into an army of elite vampire hunters, then there would be someone else to go for undead removal services, and the Crusade would have to compete for the affections of players who simply can't take on undead themselves. However much grumbling there is among players about the excesses of the Crusaders, there is (and I would say should be) at least a begrudging acknowledgment of the work they do, and to the extent that this is really a problem, the only solution apparent to me is that other guilds have to deal with some of the problems nobody dares doing without a Crusader, whether they need additional abilities to do so or they can marshal what is already available to them.

In any case, I can think of a number of tasks I wouldn't do without a Crusader, a few others I wouldn't do without a Cleric of Taniel, and even a couple where I would certainly want a Ranger. I don't think that the monks or the clerics of Asral, to name some, have the same sort of "go-to" reputation, so there aren't quite as many reasons to make nice with them.


I guess this mostly concerns the various "neutral guilds" - how any of these proposed changes would trickle down to evil players, I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to say. Still, I really don't want to reject poOlrane's concerns or others' simply because my experience with Geas is different from theirs, and hopefully I've said something useful here.

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Re: War

#37 Post by Olrane » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:20 pm

caelia wrote: In any case, I can think of a number of tasks I wouldn't do without a Crusader, a few others I wouldn't do without a Cleric of Taniel, and even a couple where I would certainly want a Ranger. I don't think that the monks or the clerics of Asral, to name some, have the same sort of "go-to" reputation, so there aren't quite as many reasons to make nice with them.
More off-topic: I wish that players would hire PC mercenaries, assassins, and thieves more. Another thing that's very difficult in the current game environment, but it would add a lot of incentive for those roles to be played.

Part of that, at least as far as rogues are concerned, is for the wizards to create more areas where their skills are necessary*. I have very high hopes for the new continent in this regard.

Every player wants to play a character whose role is called upon. Crusaders are lucky (just to use them as an example, they're not alone) in that they're always employed; it's probably a lot of fun.

*Next time you're thinking of exploring some trap-ridden ruins, don't give your business to our Ranger competitors.

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Re: War

#38 Post by luminier » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:31 pm

So i think, baddies need a goto guild for warriors. Order isn't cutting it obviously (nor did I ever think it was suppose to cut it. The more I learn about them the more i realize they are just a "hey lets do whatever!" guild) and so evil band of warriors... needed.

Thieves? Maybe they could step up =D

That would be pretty counter intuitive if you want to be a neutral thief however. So Ideas to the contrary?
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Re: War

#39 Post by ganandorf » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:37 pm

Or, you know, more people who are dedicated to playing sathonite characters. There was a short spike a while back, but that seemed to have died down.

And if the problem is that their leader isnt too active, thats easy to fix, get a new leader.
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Re: War

#40 Post by luminier » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:42 pm

I think the point was everyone versus sathonites is hard on the sathonite players and therefore they have a short playtime. My idea would make the lifetime extend hopefully.
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