War

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ganandorf
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Re: War

#41 Post by ganandorf » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:56 pm

edit: I should preface that playing a bad guy isnt necessarily hard, most fights can easily be balanced. The problem is that playing a bad guy is BORING. Besides training and fighting good guys, theres really little to do. Sure you can kidnap someone every once in a while (which i like to do) but they have to roleplay a certain way as well, adds interest for a while, and then it gets boring again.

edit: This is MY opinion on why theres not many bad guys.

Let's look at the number of players, how many players are active in any particular day, how many of them are good guys, how many of them are neutral guys, and how many of them are bad guys.

Good guys interact with other good guys and neutral guys.
Bad guys only interact with bad guys.

As you can imagine there are much more good guys and neutral guys, meaning much more interaction for good guys and neutral guys.

Whereas theres pretty few bad guys. and when we try to interact, a good guys comes and charges us down.

Adding another evil guild is not going to suddenly spike the number of bad guys. And the bad guys are still going to be restricted in terms of who they can interact with.

I know that the wait is going to be long, but what i think is going to fix the problem is the new continent. Which will really add more openness to the game.
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lanyara
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Re: War

#42 Post by lanyara » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:36 pm

A continent, perhaps even ships, would add more mobility and variety. But I don't think that alone will help an "evil" side much. You'd perhaps have more areas to train and such - ok. More options as well depending on the continent probably as well (who knows what it will offer ... perhaps interesting items as well? Eal-Deliah is a nice example because you can really find quite a lot there).

So it's quite nice to have new and big areas for sure.

But if 90% of those playing are still on the good or neutral side how could you find more ... like-minded "evil" guys to interact with? Actually, the good and neutral guys can all be potential targets for attacks (victims!), but even that does not seem to ... keep the evil chars playing.

Some time ago you had Sathos ruling almost all of Forostar, and right now at least Sathos seem to be even sleepier than Shaolins. Perhaps I should not write this ... waking the devil eh :>
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ganandorf
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Re: War

#43 Post by ganandorf » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:42 pm

First, I don't know about you but it seems that the shaolin are quite active to me. Anytime i look i see many members, in truth, they seem to have more active members than the crusade.

And well, you can fault me, but i just don't feel like playing ganon. After a while it's gotten repetetive and boring, and I find it much easier and more fun to play an alt. I'm not playing this game to have the best character, just to keep me entertained, i see no reason to play a character i have no fun playing. I still do take care of business though, checking my mail, and talking to people who i need to talk to. If you feel that the sathos are sleepy, then i implore you, make a satho and change that.
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lanyara
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Re: War

#44 Post by lanyara » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:28 pm

I think I just like to overuse the shaolin example. They indeed seem to be quite a bit more active recently. They are however usually not extremely integrated into conflicts of any sorts.

As for making a Satho hmm. If you are all sleepy ...what should I do? Talk to the NPCs on the guildline? :)

Good and neutral simply seems to offer more choices here.
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Delmon
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Re: War

#45 Post by Delmon » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:35 pm

Of course, there are a few small amount of evils that are allowed in asadar without guild line rings and would like to converse with sathos for fun. If you'd stay on the who on It'd help creating some of this interaction. I recommend that for all evils.

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Desiderea
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Re: War

#46 Post by Desiderea » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:39 pm

So then, back to my point: when I said that their actions were sanctioned, Arwenth, I meant not so much that people like them, but they will always be tolerated and essentially allowed to work in the open.
Evils can't so much as train nearly as easily; secrecy usually means that you forgo teamwork.

I don't really have a solution I'm mostly just ranting. The Crusade isn't doing anything wrong. I'm just bummed that they're so strong and their enemies, excepting Sathonite priests, are rarely able to stand up or even avoid them effectively in the long run. It's killing the diversity here.
Yes, I can see it being hard to train up an evil character. One has to be strong enough to avoid being killed every time they are seen. Or at least can't let anyone know they're evil until they are strong enough.
I think the point was everyone versus sathonites is hard on the sathonite players and therefore they have a short playtime. My idea would make the lifetime extend hopefully.
Yeah, I'd like to see more than just everyone vs. Sathonites. I think we need more varieties of evil or neutral-evil. Where are the Lilithians? :)

I'd also like to see more evil or neutral cities too, which would give the evil people more places to hang out and find rp without being hunted. On another mud I played, there was the "evil" city full of demonic races and bones and nasty things, and then there was the more "neutral-evil" city, which had crooked leaders, gambling, drinking and whores! I guess Naarved is kind of a neutral-evil city, but it is right next to Elvandar, which makes it kind of a risky place for evil people to hang out.

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Re: War

#47 Post by Olrane » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:41 pm

ganandorf wrote:First, I don't know about you but it seems that the shaolin are quite active to me. Anytime i look i see many members, in truth, they seem to have more active members than the crusade.

And well, you can fault me, but i just don't feel like playing ganon. After a while it's gotten repetetive and boring, and I find it much easier and more fun to play an alt. I'm not playing this game to have the best character, just to keep me entertained, i see no reason to play a character i have no fun playing. I still do take care of business though, checking my mail, and talking to people who i need to talk to. If you feel that the sathos are sleepy, then i implore you, make a satho and change that.
Yep. I had to stop playing Olrane because it wasn't fun for similar reasons.

(Note: This is a rant about my personal experiences as an "Evil". Warning for off-topicness and whineyness.)

Rogues who aren't interacting with other PCs except in some random PvP skirmishes (usually which lead to about twice as many deaths as is possible to recover from) aren't fun to play. I like playing evil-leaning neutral much more than blacker-than-the-blackest-black-times-infinity evil, which is the road I ended up on. As long as the MUD is harsh on slightly evil neutrals, they'll either go good, go Damned, or quit. I don't know what more to say than that...I understand my bias is deeply rooted in my experience playing a rogue. Until rogues can walk around in the semi-open and do business with neutral to slightly-good characters without fear of being unmasked and then hunted until the end of time, you'll have the same situation as you have right now: nobody wants to play except those who can hold up a bit in PvP.

Interaction between character types - the kind brought about because other players value your specialized skills - is what seems to add the most fun and keeps certain roles played. Lots of interesting roleplay is unfortunately stifled by fears of (if not the reality of) Crusader dominance making such roles too hard to play to be any fun.

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Re: War

#48 Post by ganandorf » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:44 pm

Desiderea wrote:
So then, back to my point: when I said that their actions were sanctioned, Arwenth, I meant not so much that people like them, but they will always be tolerated and essentially allowed to work in the open.
Evils can't so much as train nearly as easily; secrecy usually means that you forgo teamwork.

I don't really have a solution I'm mostly just ranting. The Crusade isn't doing anything wrong. I'm just bummed that they're so strong and their enemies, excepting Sathonite priests, are rarely able to stand up or even avoid them effectively in the long run. It's killing the diversity here.
Yes, I can see it being hard to train up an evil character. One has to be strong enough to avoid being killed every time they are seen. Or at least can't let anyone know they're evil until they are strong enough.
I think the point was everyone versus sathonites is hard on the sathonite players and therefore they have a short playtime. My idea would make the lifetime extend hopefully.
Yeah, I'd like to see more than just everyone vs. Sathonites. I think we need more varieties of evil or neutral-evil. Where are the Lilithians? :)

I'd also like to see more evil or neutral cities too, which would give the evil people more places to hang out and find rp without being hunted. On another mud I played, there was the "evil" city full of demonic races and bones and nasty things, and then there was the more "neutral-evil" city, which had crooked leaders, gambling, drinking and whores! I guess Naarved is kind of a neutral-evil city, but it is right next to Elvandar, which makes it kind of a risky place for evil people to hang out.
Wishful thinking here, wherever crusaders can go they're going to hunt evil. And if crusaders cant go somewhere, anyone who can is immediately marked as evil. For example, Asador, if you go there, you're instantly evil.


Also in regards to poOlrane.

I completely agree with everything you have to say. Sure some people might think its a biased opinion, i really dont think so, I think its the truth.
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Olrane
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Re: War

#49 Post by Olrane » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:00 pm

An actual on-topic post! I feel I'm due, after all the tangential whining. :)

Wars are tough, but the responsibility lies on both parties to stop the action.

The losing faction owes it to the victor to stop eventually. I'm not saying you can't have your week or so of underdog struggling, but when it's clear it's clear.

The winning faction needs to try to establish a sort of conqueror's truce; offer your terms and try for peace as soon as it's mostly confirmed that you're ahead.

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luminier
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Re: War

#50 Post by luminier » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:16 pm

What Olrane just posted is how I figure most wars should go, regardless of how "attached" you are to your cause. Everyones been talking about how all the Crusaders do is go around and hunt evil, so it could be said we are pretty attached to that cause and like I said before, even we know when to call it a day.

But to Olrane, how would you like us to treat the slightly evil neutrals? How do you guys think it should be done? As I recall I pretty much remember all the slightly evils getting cornered into going full evil.

I remember when I was an outlaw to the Crusaders after leaving them. And because I had killed Sathonites, I wasn't a friend of them either (not that I wanted to be and from what I understand neither do you). No where to turn really at all, to be honest I don't know how I did it, but I managed without dying too often. Maybe it's because I didn't have Luminier hunting me, no idea.

My advice to the neutral slightly evils don't go around backstabbing things or being really open about what you do. Secrets are key. Do you think successful criminals go around telling everyone how successful they are? No they shut up keep to themselves and put on an act. If that means tricking some Crusader tshaharks and humans and acting not like a complete asshole to them, than thats what it means. Not saying Olrane was an ass, im just saying if someone is an asshole to Crusaders chances are the Crusaders will not like you and find a way to smite your smart ass.
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Re: War

#51 Post by Olrane » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:30 pm

Don't get me wrong, Luminier. I don't blame you guys for everything.

The problem with slightly-evils is complex. Yes, they shouldn't go around and backstab everything, that's obvious. A lot of the responsibility falls on them to be cunning and under the radar.

However, it's also important for the more neutral to slightly-good characters to be willing to interact with slightly-evil characters, lest they again repeat the phenomenon of being cornered into an evil role.

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Re: War

#52 Post by lanyara » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:50 pm

With any definition that gods are all knowing, and the aura always revealing the "sins" someone has done, there simply can not be any secrets about your character. The aura will always reveal the action someone has done. Whether that one is extremely evil or slightly evil... both situations are worse than anyone who has a "good" aura. Sure you can try to play smart, but in reality the situations usually go:

"This could be a disguise! Let's be wary, let's go ahead and check."

Or any situation where a cleric goes and prepares a favour check miracle, and "suddenly" someone is running away urgently ... suspicious behavior.
Someone has to hide something here? :>
Last edited by lanyara on Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Olrane
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Re: War

#53 Post by Olrane » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:55 pm

lanyara wrote:With any definition that gods are all knowing, and the aura always revealing the "sins" someone has done, there simply can not be any secrets about your character. The aura will always reveal the action someone has done. Whether that one is extremely evil or slightly evil... both situations are worse than anyone who has a "good" aura.
Right, and part of this is a sort of unspoken agreement that's necessary. Don't check auras unless you either have permission or good suspicion of wrongdoing. And, if you ask me, if you have tangible evidence of wrongs, you don't even need to check auras, just go through the legal system.
Law first, auras only when it's absolutely needed. Not because it's a good strategy, but because lenience allows for more fun interaction.

I'm all for having characters be viable as long as possible. The "unmasking" event of an evil character needs to happen after the character has some support structures set up or else he will no longer wish to play when singled out by the rest of the MUD.

Edit: Lanyara, you're a forum fiend. You already almost have as many posts as I do.

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Re: War

#54 Post by lanyara » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:08 pm

You already almost have as many posts as I do.
Yeah. I write too much.

It's the halfling blood ... my curious nose pulls me everywhere ...

I do however also try to write shorter notes (and often fail).
The "unmasking" event of an evil character needs to happen after the character has some support structures set up or else he will no longer wish to play when singled out by the rest of the MUD.
I think in reality this is hard to see. Players often are simply bored, and if you get to see someone who might be potentially evil or even worse an evil spy ... well you come closer and closer to the unmasking action. :) (By default everyone you don't know is potentially someone suspicious, and often someone evil, and even if not then you can push him - either he becomes good, that is a good outcome, or he becomes evil, then you can burn that witch actually as it is an evil witch)

And it makes a lot of sense! You do good deeds by being extremely wary and careful. The moment you "reveal" such an evil aura may be a moment where you have spoiled some evil action lateron, i.e. kidnapping some citizen or similar (because by simple logic, anyone with an evil aura, must be someone evil, and once having been evil you basically ... are potentially dangerous to the good people)

But ok, I write too much about auras. This is about war, not auras.

I am really curious what would happen if wars would really last a long time (some game years)
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per
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Re: War

#55 Post by per » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:13 am

lanyara wrote:Or any situation where a cleric goes and prepares a favour check miracle, and "suddenly" someone is running away urgently ... suspicious behavior. Someone has to hide something here? :>
Eh.. well most charcters don't know it's a check miracle, do they?

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Re: War

#56 Post by lanyara » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:25 am

Clerics in disguise could know :) and other high profile evil characters could suspect something "bad" for them to happen (having the god you worship revealed, and also your aura revealed i.e. if you have done "evil" actions). It also makes absolutely sense to try and find out about "bad auras" for a good character, from an IC point of view at least.

Of course it is also boring for everyone ... you can't hide at all as an evil. Perhaps you try to be a bit more lenient as a cleric char, and not run around trying to discover auras everywhere (but this is usually much more an OOC consideration here, from an IC point of view it makes a lot more sense to find out about the god of someone else, and his aura ...), but sooner or later you may have to do this. When Lanyara was a cleric this situation usually arised when crusaders were awake. ;)

What if auras would not exist or the ability to find out about auras would be disabled completely? That would allow for more diversity in theory.

But as long as you can not hide your aura you have this immediate "attack me / watch what I do carefully" tag attached (pitch black auras) with all further problems associated with it.
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Delia
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Re: War

#57 Post by Delia » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:40 am

I've seen it countless of times. A cleric starts his/her miracle, someone runs off only to come back after it is "safe". Just for the sake of the chance of that said miracle being one that checks one's aura. I've seen it with magic as well. Delia starts reading a scroll. Someone runs off(combat or conversation)and comes back after it is "safe". I've thought of making emotes of dummy scroll readings and other common legerdemain dealing with fake magic with emotes just for the sake of getting to see people scamper around ;)

Scary gloomy nasty human tells you: No, I will not reveal you anything.

Delia tells the scary gloomy nasty human: We shall see about that.

Delia deftly reaches for her pockets and reveals a scroll.

Delia suddenly starts to go "Ooga-booga" and gestures wildly.

The scary gloomy nasty human runs off northwest.

Delia snickers and pockets an empty piece of parchment.
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Cuetlachtli
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Re: War

#58 Post by Cuetlachtli » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:10 pm

lmao @ delia....oh that's brilliant

First Note:
Crusaders...take over Forostar! DO IT! I can think of a few interesting scenarios to get out of that situation that could be very interesting and force some fun RP too (think odd temporary alliances). But I'm definitely not the most experienced player or in a position to really comment on it that much I suppose.

Second Note:
Well the rest of my post started to get off the topic of War, which this thread is about, so please visit:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1218&p=15426#p15426
If you're interested in some evil/good balance replies to posts in this thread.

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Re: War

#59 Post by lanyara » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:29 pm

I wonder if crusaders actually want to take over Forostar. What if that would merely lead to perpetual war situations?
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luminier
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Re: War

#60 Post by luminier » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:49 pm

We don't. It would.

We aren't rulers we are judges and executioners.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

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