NPC Patrol and crossing

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arxthas
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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#21 Post by arxthas » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:41 am

luminier wrote: You know most of the most successful evils you never see coming because they are secretive about their motivations as well as their actions.
That was the entire point. You can not hide your faith since there are karma/favour checks.
luminier wrote: 1. Don't be an idiot. (I wish this all I had to write)
2. Don't make a character and tell everyone at Volog/Beladan you hate their guts and that you love Sathonys and run to Asador.
3. You don't have to be overly overt about your goals to everyone you meet. Asking for favour checks and similar things to be taken out is just LAZY.
4. Stay away from Clerics and Crusaders if you fear they are on to you.
5. Try to stay neutral in the eyes of everyone for as long as possible. A unexperienced evil is a dead evil.
6. Prepare yourself for being literally 'against the world'. Being evil is an uphill fight pretty much the whole way. "r bspear" isn't the win command for the MUD.
7. Keep contact with you "end goal" contact. Sathonys/Order/Thief guild master, express interest, don't pester. If they want you, they'll contact you.
8. Once your "in", stay in groups. don't bite off more than you can't chew and don't piss off the wrong people. FYI Luminier can't kill Adanath alone, so your little newbie can't either. Well maybe I could, but it would require a lot of dancing.
1. Ok
2. Rather narrow advice, but ok.
3. The third "don't". Where is the "do"?
4. This immediately raises suspicion.
5. You can not stay neutral if you worship sathonys and have black karma.
6. This uphill struggle and isolation is the "bad thing" that limits players is what Ferranifer critized.
7. This advice is probably good, but it has nothing to do with avoiding those favour checks.
8. Again, nothing that answers the question on how to avoid the favour check.
luminier wrote: Sure I can elaborate about 'trying to be secretive' but I don't see why I have to. If you are a person with any intelligence you can guess that being evil is in fact "bad" and frowned upon by the general population.
You do not have to. If you prefer, the argument can stand unanswered. That will speak for itself. As for intelligence, I think most Geas players have enough of it. What is the need to comment on it?
luminier wrote:However, you, being the evil bastard you are, still want to be evil. So hunt with those who are neutral (maybe even those who are good, depending on how much of a nice guy you act to be) and get better as a character and try to learn who you need to "watch out" for so you can contact them and tell them you are theres to command from behind the scenes. MAIL very important. Mail is great.
Again. If you hunt with a group of neutral people (does that group even exist?) and be evil, everyone will notice the day after since their reputation sunk like a stone. This is not being secretive - it is blowing your cover right on the scene. What about that first item in the list? The reputation will then slowly spread as soon as those formerly neutral characters meet up the really good guys.
luminier wrote:If you want to worship sathonys, thats fine. But remember that it's frowned upon and if you get found out too early - you are fucked. Might as well drop the character unless u want a hell of a time with it and are masochistic. (I had to do this in the past with my first evil)
This is a part of the criticism (easy to detect evil, lack of options as evil) that your note now suggests what? Do you mean that you think it is good or bad? Or are you stating facts? I also think dropping the character seems like generally a bad idea to encourage people to do.
luminier wrote:What do we do poLuminer? Well children I am here to save you. To be a successful evil you must have skills to back up your big badness otherwise Adanath's gonna put a can of whoop ass on you. So BE SECRETIVE, lets elaborate on this. You can be evil w/o worshipping Sathonys or having a horrible black karma. Stay neutral, godless for as long as you need before you think you are ready. Going evil as soon as the character is made is bad IMO for two reasons.)

1. You are going to get punched in the face. Repeatedly. Until you decide "well this sucks ill get good karma now".
2. You will likely encounter situations in which you can flesh out your character alot better AFTER you've actually made it and had interactions with other characters. Then at least people sort of know why your evil, and you have a cool backstory.
This "need to train a lot as neutral/goodie and then turn evil" is something you think is good? I think it sucks. Doing it this way, planning and then turning after a long while is borderline to cheating.
luminier wrote: And news flash you can be evil without worshipping Sathonys or even fighting goodies all the time! Whoa! New! Exciting! But I figure people just want the cool green skin/bone armour/death miracles - hell I did.
I think the context here was to be secretive as Satho, so..
luminier wrote: I know that there are people who are bad and who are successful in their badness without people knowing about it. Naga was a bloody perfect example! The others I obviously won't say because they would hurt me IRL for blowing their cover.
It is extremely well known that Naga had some bad affairs. You could probably ask any Crusader IC about his history.

If you can not say their names, it does not contribute to your argument of going evil secretly. There is no new information. Noone can either understand or believe you (or discuss/oppose it, which is what the forum is for..).
luminier wrote: Im not entirely sure I understood what Per said, but, if subterfuge is forbidden, thats dumb. How is it abuse of the code to pretend to worship one god while actually favoring another?
The dumb thing is to cheat. The second dumbest thing is to not figure out the rules of the game before you start playing it. As for the question - I know that you know the answer.

Is this "technique" something you employed previously/historically in other areas of the game or with other characters?

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#22 Post by luminier » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:33 am

Cliff notes: Worshipping Sathonys and keeping it a secret is doable. (I've done it) Just don't be obvious... I don't really know what to tell you. I didn't eat corpses I was generally a decent person. I stayed fairly neutral and didn't arouse suspicion. Seems fairly obvious to me. Maybe im just that cunning, but I doubt it.


Yes and like I said if you can't avoid favour checks you are either being lazy, or being too obvious. How often are people really even being checked? I never hear about anyone getting checked ever. How big of a problem is this? In my experience it was never a problem (seriously). If you are good at being secretive about things you shouldn't even need to worry about checks at all. Clerics don't just shotgun checks on the general population.

I said stay neutral until you are ready. Once you worship sathonys and have black karma, either you are ready (great) or you aren't (not great). I didn't say that it was always an uphill struggle but it's probably not for a casual GEAS player. Being Evil takes experience anyone can tell you that. Also my attempt was not to defuse the favour check comment with my "guide" because it is stupid to worry about that anyways. Like I said before if you need to worry about it, you are doing it wrong.

GEAS players have enough intelligence? Eh I wish that was the case. There would be a lot less problems. I've seen some pretty dumbass moves from everyone, myself included.

Again the goal of my guide was to stay neutral until you are ready. I said many times not to go evil right away. That would defeat my whole guide instantly. That is foolish. Do not go evil too early. You must have a good handle on your reputation and karma at all times.

I encourage dropping a character if his intentions are known too early. A character that is less than a day old should not be going evil. I would not suggest it until one is at the very least a few days old. Im am not encouraging dropping older chars just because you made one mistake, but if you made a mistake with a newbie you can afford a fresh start.

Planning out a character is cheating? Jesus, ban 50% of characters then. Ya making an evil takes work and training. Being good takes work and training. Being anything takes work and training. Being evil takes a certain kind of work/training being good takes another. The path is for you to forge, im just saying the one I found to be the easiest. It's by no means the only one you have to take.

Well FINE. Just shoot the hope down altogether. People exist who have done it. If im optimistic I am sure others could be too. Naga had rough spots sure but he Rp'd through it, and then continued from his mistake and learned from it.

I refuse to accept the fact that you can't pretend to worship an acceptable deity while actually worshiping someone else. If thats illegal that needs to be changed because that is horribly foolish. I used the technique and so did others. I was not condemned for it.
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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#23 Post by arxthas » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:00 am

I still can not see a single point where you explain anything about how to be secretive.. I'm just leaving it there.
luminier wrote:I refuse to accept the fact that you can't pretend to worship an acceptable deity while actually worshiping someone else. If thats illegal that needs to be changed because that is horribly foolish. I used the technique and so did others. I was not condemned for it.
So you and others broke the rules of the game. Can we ban this player, please?

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#24 Post by luminier » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:29 am

My whole guide is tips about being secretive (you know the part of being neutral and normal in the eyes of everyone before actually revealing yourself to be evil? that part - and every other part of it). Phelan an evil character actually agreed with what I had to put forward. So I don't know how I can explain any clearer to you. Maybe someone else can comment on whether my hints were helpful for not.

Pretty sure it would be the dumbest reason in the world to ban me for, but, ok. I would actually like to debate as to why this is against the rules if it is. Because IMO it's stupid as hell.
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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#25 Post by Loreen » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:58 am

I doubt Per meant that you cannot _pretend_ doing one thing and doing acutally something else. To me I understood it this way:

you worship sathonys and say you worship gwen, fine, no problem
you worship sathonys, get cold feet of being discovered, you fix your karma to grey and do whatever gwenites do to get favour with gwen, so you switch to gwen as your deity. -> big problem according to Per.

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#26 Post by luminier » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:05 am

Ya see like my idea was that this(my example that follows) was allowed.

Lets say everyone likes Asral. But you are different and like Sathonys. For fear of being uncovered and being a social outcast, you do all the Asralite things but actually worship Sathonys. I don't know how that could be understood as "against the rules".

I don't think he meant what you said either Loreen. To me that would just be being a chicken and switching out.

I think what he means is worshipping Sathonys, but gaming the system so your karma is amazing but you still worship Sathonys. But like I said, I want to debate this. If Per could outline what he actually meant, that would be famous.
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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#27 Post by ferranifer » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:07 am

The point is not if it's possible to play an evil character or not. The point is if it's:
1) Desirable.
2) Worth the effort.

Expecting someone to spend months or even years of IRL time to do something that other characters have granted at the very start is ridiculous and a very clear indication of why there's not enough evil characters in this game. And that's assuming the character is a reroll, knows what she's doing and has a plan. New characters? Forget about it. And then population growth stops.

I agree that the Sathos could have evolved into something a lot more civilized than what was created originally, and so could have everything that was built around them. This is mainly the Satho players' fault, no doubt, but some of the decisions put in place during this time have definitely pushed them into the niche where they lay right now.

As Jezz rightly put in some other post (hey Jezz! *hug*), it's not cool to play an NPC.

And by the way, please don't troll. Insulting everyone's intelligence and patronizing to reinforce your own opinions is just bullying.

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#28 Post by luminier » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:22 am

It's desirable as you want it to be. If you don't want to play an evil character you don't have to. Worth the effort? Probably about as much as anything else in this game is.

I don't exactly know what you mean by this statement.
"Expecting someone to spend months or even years of IRL time to do something that other characters have granted at the very start is ridiculous and a very clear indication of why there's not enough evil characters in this game."
If you mean that people can be good right away without there being any negative factor, while the opposite isn't true I suppose you are right. But Im saying if your smart about how you play it really shouldn't matter even if you choose to be evil right off the bat.

Sathonys players probably fell into that trap because they used game mechanics to make the game easier for them. I don't blame them, it's not easy being evil. But it made for the psychopaths we know and love today. Im sure if you were granted sight in the darkness by hugging bunnies and kissing babies we wouldn't have this problem.

Im not entirely sure what Jezz's post out of context has to do here. But Abha's famous "This is not an equal opportunity MUD" quote certainly fits the bill here.

Don't know why anyone would consider my posts trolling. And I didn't call anyone here an idiot or patronize them. Just offering some sarcastic but also helpful tips. Jokes make things easier to remember.
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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#29 Post by adanath » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:16 pm

Just a thought, but detect evil used to be a Crusader ability, and granted people could run if they saw them doing it, but it was taken away because it was much to easy for a crusader to see someone was evil. The karma system, though I like and understand the merits I think ended up making it just as easy.

I don't really want to get into other things, I don't want to be such a way, but I will say this, with an unnamed character I have attempted to destroy a watchtower, it is not incredibly easy and takes a while. There are five of them at all times, and they are pretty beastly..though I would think most could be avoided, but I will say I have fought many revenants with a MUCH stronger character, and sometimes those things are just absolutely insanely tough.

To furry,

I am sorry your experience was somewhat negative with your priest, if you choose not to play her I do hope you will continue in another capacity. However, it could be fun roleplay I would think to attempt to turn things around a bit more towards how they used to be perhaps, if that is one thing you miss within the Sathos. Obviously a lot of things cannot change due to code changes, but maybe you can change others. I'll admit though, Adanath is not very reasonable when it comes to bartering with evilszsszz, thats what happen when a god tells a dumb lizard in his head that he needs to kill people.

I think a lot of it is about numbers and who when it comes to balance, but I suppose that is a huge discussion that never ends at Geas.

I do just hope that you find some way to fit in, or someone to help you, I am excited, and was excited at the prospect of roleplay being introduced through furry.

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#30 Post by dragan » Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:45 pm

adanath wrote:Just a thought, but detect evil used to be a Crusader ability, and granted people could run if they saw them doing it, but it was taken away because it was much to easy for a crusader to see someone was evil. The karma system, though I like and understand the merits I think ended up making it just as easy.
Actually it is still as easy for a Crusader to detect the evil. Just invoke the "no resist" fear evil ability and see what happens. If nothing happens - no evil (no resist granted, so cannot be evil). If they run - evil, chase, draw lance, split skull - no evil. Result is the same. Evil is banished. What's the problem? No problem! :mrgreen:

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#31 Post by arxthas » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:35 am

I do not think that is the way it is supposed to be used, Dragan..

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#32 Post by arxthas » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:20 am

luminier wrote:My whole guide is tips about being secretive (you know the part of being neutral and normal in the eyes of everyone before actually revealing yourself to be evil? that part - and every other part of it). Phelan an evil character actually agreed with what I had to put forward. So I don't know how I can explain any clearer to you. Maybe someone else can comment on whether my hints were helpful for not.
So now it has become a "guide"? You claimed that it was possible to stay secretive as black karma satho. I answered each of your item and explained why none of those methods work. Did I misunderstand you somewhere? Can you answer them? Your idea of staying neutral does not really qualify as "secretly being evil".
luminier wrote:Pretty sure it would be the dumbest reason in the world to ban me for, but, ok. I would actually like to debate as to why this is against the rules if it is. Because IMO it's stupid as hell.
Breaking the rules seems to me like an excellent reason for banishment. I do not understand why it should now earn a debate. Debating the rules is something you do before you start playing the game, not when you got caught breaking them. It's alarming that you seem to think RP abuse should be down-valued. Is cheating only when you find a bug or if your stats/skills get incorrectly boosted (or something like that)?

I guess though even if you are banned, I would have serious problems trusting you (and these "other" players who did the same thing) that they actually RP and not minmax. In field after field, it turns out that people are abusing the game only to favour their own character. So even with a well-earned ban, I have no way to trust others. This rule breakage was discovered only because you admitted it openly, but many of the issues are of nature that you can just as well conceal your behaviour and there is no way noone will ever know. You can always claim that your character had a background in which he was previously in the army, while in fact he never did. The real problem I have right now, is to trust other players. If they do not RP, why should I put in hours of work making believable restrictions, morals and background for my character when others do not? I will not get a piece of it back. I can not enjoy the game if everyone else do not take that seriously (or covering it up with a "psychopath" excuse, which by the way, should be a forbidden character concept - being evil is should not be a free ticket to do anything you like ["yay cool im evil"]). So maybe the debate is needed after all, not as a means to excuse the violation of the rules - but for people prove themselves there is a reason to trust others in the future.

To conclude.. I strongly disagree with you here. In an RP enforced MUD, the primary reason to ban someone is not taking RP seriously. This is the fundament for everything in the game.
luminier wrote:Don't know why anyone would consider my posts trolling. And I didn't call anyone here an idiot or patronize them. Just offering some sarcastic but also helpful tips. Jokes make things easier to remember..
Maybe the parts about geas player's intelligence or "1. dont' be stupid" was just mean? I am not sure if this is supposed to be funny, it could very well be something cultural. I do not understand the fun about a plump insult.

On a more general note, irony and humour is often difficult to convey across the internet. While I do agree with you that jokes can be a good way of unifying people, it can also be easily mis-interpreted. A missing smiley or any cultural difference can make your comment turn out exactly the opposite.

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#33 Post by dragan » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:24 am

arxthas wrote:I do not think that is the way it is supposed to be used, Dragan..
Surely not - but that is exactly how I have seen it beeing used.

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#34 Post by arxthas » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:57 am

That really sucks :-(

We can add another item to list..

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#35 Post by luminier » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:47 am

To Dragan

I would like to hear who did that and to who. Never used the action in such a way.

To Arxthas

You didn't "answer" my points at all. All you did was kept on harping about why favour checks ruin the game and how it makes it so hard to play an evil when it doesn't. The fact of the matter is you can play a secretive black karma Sathonite as long as you play it smart. If you give the clerics no reason to check you they aren't going to check you. If you are smart and respect the karma/reputation values of the game you'll never have a problem with being a secret Sathonite. When I was a Sathonite and full blown black karma I could walk the streets of Elvandar and Arborea with no one bothering me.

Then I went on to thinking "well this might be hard for the average casual GEAS players" - so I made my small guide to stay neutral first and go evil when you are ready, have a plan. Im not going to type it out -yet again- it's there for the people who actually are interested and want to take it for what it is.

You would understand my comment about intelligence if you have experienced what I have while playing this game, I said that already. I've seen -a lot- of poor choices made as well as rule breaking and just stupid actions overall. This made me question whether everyone who plays this game is as "intelligent" as you claim, thats all.
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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#36 Post by arxthas » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:58 am

luminier wrote: You didn't "answer" my points at all. All you did was kept on harping about why favour checks ruin the game. The fact of the matter is you can play a secretive black karma Sathonite as long as you play it smart.
First you wrote a list of points which I answered. You have not written anything back on it, or explained why indeed your claims are true and how they satisfy the idea of staying secretive with black karma and satho faith. Instead you posted a new list (posted tue 06 9:33) who paragraphs are (simplified):
- In your experience it's doable (no explanation of "how" - which is the only interesting information)
- You are self-referencing your own point about secretive as a proof that it is possible to secretive (and also the part about being generally skilled, as if that was usable by a reader)
- You have a point about being neutral - the topic of discussion was "being evil", you are out of scope
- You claim GEAS players have not enough intelligence and that they make dumbass move (no reference or explanation). Pointing at others in what they do wrong is not an explanation in how to be secretive, it is only an assetion in others behaviour. It does not explain the ideas that avoid it.
- You repeat the point about being neutral while the topic of discussion was being evil
- And then again, basically - added that you encourage dropping young wasted characters (again, does not answer anything)
- Planning out a character is the next advice. My reply (before your post) contains some unanswered questions, so you can impossibly answered it.
- Naga is used as example but not without explanation (and again with notes such as everyone know what evil he did [thus it was not secret], etc)
- And that you refuse to play by the rules
- The larger picture is unanswered. The karma checks was only one part of everything that gives you away.

Even if your points were valid (which they aren't) you did not meet any of my refutals of yours in the post previous to yours (8:41). Therefore you have not answered. You also got it wrong that the person who critizes a claim is required to answer points made by the person who made the claim in order to prove that it is false. This is not logical. The discussion should be follow the pattern where you defending your claim. It is up to you to show it. That discussion has not really started yet.
luminier wrote:If you give the clerics no reason to check you they aren't going to check you. If you are smart and respect the karma/reputation values of the game you'll never have a problem with being a secret Sathonite. When I was a Sathonite and full blown black karma I could walk the streets of Elvandar and Arborea with no one bothering me.
And this you mean using social skills? Or plain hiding? What does "respect" karma/reputation mean in this case? You mean that no clerics were around? Or that your "evil" character did not do anything that was actually evil? What? You must explain it more in detail or it is impossible to understand. What does respect karma values mean? What tools are available? Can you give any one except from yourself as example?
luminier wrote:Then I went on to thinking "well this might be hard for the average casual GEAS players" - so I made my small guide to stay neutral first and go evil when you are ready, have a plan. Im not going to type it out -yet again- it's there for the people who actually are interested and want to take it for what it is.
That is then great to share your knowledge. But it kind of confuses things if you interleaved mix defending your claims with a general guide in the same post. Add to this that you are "joking".. and so, it becomes quite hard to read and follow.
luminier wrote:You would understand my comment about intelligence if you have experienced what I have while playing this game, I said that already. I've seen -a lot- of poor choices made as well as rule breaking and just stupid actions overall. This made me question whether everyone who plays this game is as "intelligent" as you claim, thats all.
So give us a few examples so we have something to talk about. You must explain what this means or it does not act to defend your claim.

On a side note, I did not actually claim geas players was "intelligent" (although I might think so). You claimed that people weren't and I made a post explaining that I think they are "intelligent" enough. Then I asked the reason for bringing this up since it seems kind of personal/trolling.

Apart from that what is "intelligent" really depends on what goals your character have. Your ambition might be to play a dimwitted mage. That does not equal an unintelligent player. And if there really are any unintelligent players, do you think it is a good idea to make fun of them?

Okay, now I have answered your "points" (that did not match the refutations/doubts to your claim). Please in the next note, write some concrete examples of how you can prevent a cleric favour checking you (prefereably without making new claims before we handled the current one). If you are writing one, that is..

I am also personally interested in hearing from these "other" players who violated the rules.

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#37 Post by dragan » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:34 am

luminier wrote:To Dragan

I would like to hear who did that and to who. Never used the action in such a way.

If you give the clerics no reason to check you they aren't going to check you. If you are smart and respect the karma/reputation values of the game you'll never have a problem with being a secret Sathonite.
I can imagine you would like to hear that, but it would reveal too much information about 2nds and so on, that I am unwilling to reveal. I can confirm that I never saw Luminier using it this way if that helps.

Regarding the avoidance of favour checks - yes, I can agree on this. Normally you only get checked if you provide a good reason. Clerics do not check people randomly (at least not to my experience). If you want to play the concealed evil you have to be smart indeed.

Actually it is not so hard. Black karma gives you no problems in Elvandar and Arborea. Black reputation is another thing of course. A black reputation is also impossible to hide, as the NPC's react on it. Thus - you should not wonder if some clerics want to check your favour if you have a bad reputation.

But to get back to the main point. Yes, you can of course worship Sathonys or Lilith without anyone having the faintest idea about it. Problem here would mainly be the 2nds issue. Some goodies evil 2nd sees you in Asador, so the player knows blah blah and his goodie performs a favour check on you - but this is an OOC problem (abuse of OOC information and should not happen) and there is nothing you can do about it. If you seek friendship with the wrong people, then you also should not wonder about favour checks. Just imagine you want to train with some Crusader - they would have to check your aura by law, as it is forbidden for them to team with non goodies. So basically it is up to you, if you volunteer as favour check target or not.

To conclude:

Yes, playing evil is more challenging than playing good ...

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#38 Post by adanath » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:35 am

I have never seen it being used as a substitute for detect evil or in such a manner either. I wouldn't personally use it that way.

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Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#39 Post by dragan » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:42 am

Considering the topic of this thread "NPC Patrol and crossing" I also think the discussion is getting a bit away from it - and currently quite hot. How about cooling it down a bit? 8)

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Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: NPC Patrol and crossing

#40 Post by arxthas » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:39 am

I hope I did not make that impression. I am not angered or anything. I honestly want to hear the arguments for the secretism - and, yes, I'm open-minded for that it's already fair as it is. I just need to at least hear the arguments. I am also not afraid to debate anything.

But yes, all topics seem to go in others directions. Stuff affects other stuff that affects everything else. It usually seems to boild down to a few root-causes as the players perceive, which are the same topics getting attention over and over. Others seem to be content and deny there are problems.

I personally would enjoy it more if the wizzies/admins could break in, and say "this is the way we want it" and generally being very clear about things. Some players will be disappointed, some will like it - but at least it would be clear what the game is about and what problems that should be solved and not. I think the repeated topics needs to be solved, not silencing the discussions. But yes, if it gets personal, it is really bad. I do not mind a slightly hot debate though, a good debate needs some hotness.

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