Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

Anything to say about roleplay? Want to share a story? This is the right place.

Moderator: Wizards

What do you think about favour checks?

Leave them how they are
6
16%
Remove the ability to check what god someone follows
4
11%
Remove the ability to check aura
0
No votes
Only leave the ability to see how much YOUR god favours them.
24
65%
Remove them altogether
3
8%
 
Total votes: 37

Message
Author
User avatar
hsparks
Journeyman
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: At my computer doing something.

Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#1 Post by hsparks » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:33 pm

Seems like is a really hot topic, and has been for a long time. So let's see how everyone feels about it.

As a Taniel priest, I actually do not like checking favour. It simplifies the game whereas it could be an amazing and in depth RP adventure to find this information.
"If there truly is an evil in this world, it lies within the hearts of mankind."

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#2 Post by luminier » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:54 am

If I had to choose it would be the ability to only check the persons favour with your own God. I think that would be an extremely helpful change, and so far the results agree.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

ferranifer
Champion
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:16 am
Location: Europe CET

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#3 Post by ferranifer » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:42 am

And please remove the spider sense as well. Last time I hanged around with a lawyer, I didn't magically feel any evilness on her.

Hell, just kill the whole karma concept. Reputation IS the way to do this and it's working just fine. And clerics already use their favour to fuel their miracles, so what's the point of karma?

adanath
Champion
Posts: 505
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:36 am
Location: Lynchburg, VA

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#4 Post by adanath » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:10 pm

A cleric, I think, should be able to check what deity someone follows. It has always been this way, and yes there were arguments but it worked fine.

Karma/rep I think is the issue, something that this poll altogether neglects. This poll also completely neglects the relationship between them and the aspect of karma/rep.

If there was an option for me to vote for I would, but the options are quite limited.

I don't know I think it is a bit more complex than it is made out to be.

Olrane
Champion
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:56 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#5 Post by Olrane » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:08 pm

ferranifer wrote:And please remove the spider sense as well. Last time I hanged around with a lawyer, I didn't magically feel any evilness on her.

Hell, just kill the whole karma concept. Reputation IS the way to do this and it's working just fine. And clerics already use their favour to fuel their miracles, so what's the point of karma?
After some thought, I feel like this is the best way to go about solving these problems. In the very least, karma leaching should be much, much slower.

In my opinion, karma should almost wholly be determined by one's actions as an individual. Within the current system, characters can have their karma significantly changed by hanging around others with unknown karma. This has the negative effects of revealing those with extreme karma and unexpectedly negating the efforts that some take to achieve extreme karma. The big impact of this is that people are forced to (very unnaturally) keep a close watch on what should be a basically unknown value to all but clerics. There's a great degree of paranoia and metagaming involved in this that just doesn't feel healthy for the game.

Reputation feels very different. It's mundane, it's out in the open, and while people may do the same obsessive maintenance of it, doing so is an act of roleplay. You can be a thief who's loved by everyone if you play your cards right. To manipulate karma in such a way is not roleplay but rather abuse of code mechanics.

User avatar
hsparks
Journeyman
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: At my computer doing something.

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#6 Post by hsparks » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:50 pm

adanath wrote:A cleric, I think, should be able to check what deity someone follows. It has always been this way, and yes there were arguments but it worked fine.

Karma/rep I think is the issue, something that this poll altogether neglects. This poll also completely neglects the relationship between them and the aspect of karma/rep.

If there was an option for me to vote for I would, but the options are quite limited.

I don't know I think it is a bit more complex than it is made out to be.


There are three things you see when you favour check someone. This covers all of them. You see aura, favour of your god, and their deity. I think the poll covers all of them. I'm not referring to the rep because this thread itself is about favour checks.
"If there truly is an evil in this world, it lies within the hearts of mankind."

Loreen
Professional
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:55 pm

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#7 Post by Loreen » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:37 am

Removal of karma would be a great help. For a long long LONG time Loreen had problems. As a non-cleric/non-crusader I often grouped with lots of people, hell, I am and play a social person. And since I only now and then visit my temple, and ask for a karma check, I more than once saw it reduced from good/very good/near perfect reduced to neutral or barely so, just because I grouped with someone I should not have.

That resulted in me turning mostly into a solitary hunter. I move about alone mostly, if not with other rangers or tanielites/crusaders.

Having to care for karma, especially as a youngster with no really easy way to fix it, it gets easier once you mastered combat somewhat and know where to go or what to do, but hell, it limits you a lot.

lanyara
Overlord
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#8 Post by lanyara » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:35 am

The current karma system is essentially unfixable by code measures IMHO.

All gods use the same karma scale, there is no room for individual treatment of actions specific to deities. It seems to be a simple + and - system, and it is just wrong to treat any actions whatsoever in a specific way. I always assumed gods to be powerful beings who are so far away from what mortals do, but the karma system stipulates the opposite - suddenly, every action you do is one that is valued by the gods, at least right now.

The karma scale also treats all actions the same. Murdering NPCs will be valued the same as thievery, just that it probably is easier to get to super negative karma by murdering NPCs, than by being a thief for a longer time.

A few examples:

Prostitition right now at least in Arborea (Yanna) is percieved as an evil action (worsens the karma), and this just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It wouldn't even make sense in the other way (improve the karma). Both solutions are totally wrong because all gods use the same scale.

Why would Gwen, a goddess supposedly loving everyone, dislike if anyone takes this service at all? But she would, at least after some time, because the karma counter would decrease as a result, and the NPC cleric would then eventually tell you that your karma is horrible as a result. Hrm.

Donating to charity is also a problem because if you can reach perfect positive karma with it, Gwen would dislike it. Hrm.

There also are only + and - actions possible as far as I know. No "neutral" actions.

Then there are smaller problems, like that you can reach maximum negative karma without ever having killed anyone (NPCs) at all.
Or, let's say you reach maximum negative karma. If you kill more NPCs from that point on, it won't matter because your karma can not decrease anymore. Which means that if you kill 1 NPC or 100000 NPCs from that point on makes no more difference at all. But I think the guy who slaughters so many NPCs would be a slightly worse person than the guy who killed "only" one more NPC, just the karma system can not distinguish between these two.

And when you want to improve your karma again, just by charity, my question would be - how much money do you have to spend just so that the gods forgive you for killing NPCs before? How much can money buy?

The problems continue all the while with karma, especially as long as karma is a general measure and not one tied to specific gods. Karma has also caused frustration among the wizards for sure because suddenly characters are more or less encouraged to act "fitting to deities", due to game mechanics alone, and if they don't then wizards may want to assume that it becomes "bad roleplay" because it wouldn't be specific to your character or your deity. But honestly it is not the player at fault here, it is the game feature. From my point of view, karma removes more options than it introduces.

No longer is it totally free to roleplay according to how you believe your character should respond.

There are also slightly hilarious examples, such as greedy character concepts donating to charity.

Thievery is another example. By assuming that thieves must be "evil" today, you automatically and instantly remove any possibility to have "good" thieves. They cannot depict themselves as "good" thieves at all anymore due to the code mechanics stating the opposite. And of course reputation works against them.

But it is, as a result, no longer up to the roleplay of the character, but instead has become decided primarily due to the game mechanics. (Not that there are many thieves playing at all anymore... and how many do use backstab as game feature, too? Close to 0? Some changes really make it extremely hard to do certain actions.)

The karma system is the change I dislike the most by far.

It is easily used in a legit IC-way and automatically sanctions the behaviour of EVERYONE who wants to use it to his or her advantage. Actions done by mortals are instantly tangible due to it, right to the point where it is extremely trivial to do so:
If my god wants of me to do this or that, and the system awards this behaviour, then for sure will I want to do it if I am a faithful servant. The problem with this is that it just doesn't work equally fine for all gods right now, and I don't think it can be fixed by new code. The karma system primarily works in favour of the extremely good character concepts. It is easy to reach max positive karma after some time, and then stick to it. It is also easy to reach max negative karma, but negative karma has more repercussions (see how inactive the evil side is right now). Those in between those extremes have it even harder, because they are required to juggle their karma according to those two extremes, and that is really just horrible.

What further contributes to the problems of the karma system is karma leakage. This is especially bad for socializing because it encourages solo-ist character types.

Association with people having bad karma automatically reveals anyone with a bad karma and worsens your karma if you have a lot of positive karma. This makes it even more difficult to conceal his or her behaviour, and it makes socialiazing with non-perfect people quite annoying.

The karma system also kicks in if you do not worship ANY deity at all, which means that the gods even care about characters not worshipping ANYONE. This is also a thing I don't understand, because on the one hand gods make it super easy to switch to another god today, yet they even want to care right to the point when a mortal does not really worship them at all. Hmmmmmmm.

Being able to reveal the karma accurately also means that noone can hide anymore. Evil characters just can't. They are revealed easily. Revealing right now is trivial. I know some players wrote that you have to play smart, but it just ain't possible. You simply don't find evil characters in the long run in good areas, other than for non-stop PvP (and even these guys eventually stop playing after some time.)

The reputation system is basically ok, I think it is not perfect yet, and especially does not allow for "evil" chars to manipulate it sufficiently. It also works too much in favour of "good" characters, but I can however see the reputation system be fixed or adjusted.

But the karma system is in my opinion really unfixable by code alone. Gods shouldn't become game features, and the karma system achieves this as well, because as a result the gods value your actions in a tangible fashion.

You can go in opposition to other characters, but you as a mortal can not go against "what gods want". And what gods currently want is conflict or isolation in regards to the other gods (or rather, the mortals worshipping other gods).

My personal opinion is to completely and without any compensation remove the karma system as game feature. This would be a huge change, but I can only see that the karma system creates more problems than it does attempt to solve.

I have high doubts that more code will fix the problems (there are some more problems with the karma system, such as that evil characters are encouraged to become more or less social psychopaths, but my note is already so long), simply because the assumptions put forward with the karma system creates new problems.

The karma system can be easily used as an IC way to endless and non-stop PvP conflict for the simple fact that "my god dislikes what you do and the aura reveals your evil actions permanently". And the game mechanics encourage this behaviour.

As for the poll, I think my answer would depend on whether the karma system is kept or not. If the karma system is removed, then I wouldn't even mind if favour checking is kept. But if the karma system stays in place, then I think favour checking should be entirely removed, though that perhaps does not make sense, because the karma system kind of is the recipe for extreme conflict right now (which adds other problems, such as new players feeling the need to powertrain up, just so that they can stop feeling they have to play the permanent victim role, just so that they can compete with others in PvP ...) .

Anyway, to conclude - my personal opinion is to 100% remove the karma system as a whole. It is in essence unneeded and adds more problems than it attempts to solve.
Best race: halflings.

lanyara
Overlord
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#9 Post by lanyara » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:50 am

I forgot something important.

The karma concept reminds me of the DnD alignment system, which I also don't really like.

But in essence, the karma concept seems to be heavily inspired in an OOC fashion and implemented that way into the game.

If I worship an "evil" deity like Sathonys, then for sure as hell I would never want to roleplay ICly like:

"My god is an evil god."

But all the actions which "fit" to an evil god are basically evil sociopathic or extreme actions. The karma system is making it needlessly harder to roleplay as a sneaky, "good" guy worshipping an evil deity, and to me this seems to be wholly derived in an OOC fashion here (game mechanics).

It probably comes down to how you want to treat gods in the game.

In my opinion it would be better if it would be solely up to the characters roleplaying, and the game mechanics should not have any kind of OOC influence here, especially not in a system more akin to the DnD alignment system. Which is really extremely static and cliche.

The whole good/neutral/evil stance could be replaced with a concept of personalities fitting to deities. This way, Sathonys is still an "evil deity" because he does evil actions fitting to his personality, and the other gods have different personalities.

With the current karma system this isn't really possible because it stipulates from the mortals to act fitting to the specific deity in question.
Best race: halflings.

dragan
Journeyman
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:54 pm

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#10 Post by dragan » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:53 am

Karma to one god is not the same as karma to another god. I can tell you for sure that Dragan has a pitch black aura to Taniel, while he got perfect karma to Sathonys. Same goes for Asral karma - Asral sees it as neutral with a slight tendency towards evil - Taniel sees it pitch black.

Another char got perfect karma for Taniel, while Evren sees it pitch black - Do not ask me how this is possible, but yes - it is!

Probably Taniel considers all non-gooders pitch black, so that Smite works better. :)

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#11 Post by luminier » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:14 pm

Olrane wrote:
Reputation feels very different. It's mundane, it's out in the open, and while people may do the same obsessive maintenance of it, doing so is an act of roleplay. You can be a thief who's loved by everyone if you play your cards right. To manipulate karma in such a way is not roleplay but rather abuse of code mechanics.

"Doing so is an act of roleplay"

AGREE

IMO same goes for karma if you choose to secretly follow Sathonys while telling everyone you follow Asral. But Im not saying thats what Olrane said, Im saying it should be treated probably similarly. Doing so is an act of roleplay not cheating.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Olrane
Champion
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:56 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#12 Post by Olrane » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:35 pm

luminier wrote:
Olrane wrote:
Reputation feels very different. It's mundane, it's out in the open, and while people may do the same obsessive maintenance of it, doing so is an act of roleplay. You can be a thief who's loved by everyone if you play your cards right. To manipulate karma in such a way is not roleplay but rather abuse of code mechanics.

"Doing so is an act of roleplay"

AGREE

IMO same goes for karma if you choose to secretly follow Sathonys while telling everyone you follow Asral. But Im not saying thats what Olrane said, Im saying it should be treated probably similarly. Doing so is an act of roleplay not cheating.
The reason it could be called "cheating" (although I'm somewhat averse to such a harsh word) is that karma is supposed to reflect true intention, not the results of deception.

For example: a pickpocket may give some amount of his goods to the poor to appear charitable. This is perfectly acceptable reputation maintenance.
It isn't really acceptable IMO to continually monitor karma and try to balance that out with unnatural actions. If a murderer decided to compensate by killing many undead and giving to the poor without actually being less murderous in mind (obviously true repentance is fine), I would find it very suspect. Especially if said murderer already had a respectable reputation.

I just think that if karma should mean anything at all, it needs to be that: a clearer reflection of a character's intention. Because that's a personal thing, here's how I think it could be changed:

-Karma leaching should be seriously reduced or better removed entirely. If karma is to reflect one's "true soul" it does a poor job if it's easily influenced by association.

-Karma should, if it doesn't already, slip toward neutral from the good end faster than from the evil end. Good acts should be less influential for karma than evil acts, regardless of current karmic level.

-Karma should no longer be able to be checked at NPC clerics. I know this sounds frightening, but I think that as it stands now, people are forced into paranoid maintenance instead of simply roleplaying and accepting the results. Reputation you can game, karma should reflect what you do in the average day.

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#13 Post by ganandorf » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:05 pm

Sure get rid of the karma notification in favour checks. Easier to become a spy and cause some havoc = more fun.
Meow

lanyara
Overlord
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#14 Post by lanyara » Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:59 am

This is something I am wondering about the situation with spies in general. If the gods are all-knowing there could - by definition - not be any successful spies or? But of course that would remove another roleplay option, and my general feeling is that removing too many options is often bad.
Karma should no longer be able to be checked at NPC clerics. I know this sounds frightening, but I think that as it stands now, people are forced into paranoid maintenance instead of simply roleplaying and accepting the results.
<3 the phrase "paranoid maintenance" :)
Best race: halflings.

Skragna
Champion
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#15 Post by Skragna » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:51 am

I don't like the karma system, myself, and I speak as a relatively new character. It's hard to maintain, easily manipulated by other characters to find out otherwise secret information, and so on. I mean, if I made a character today, marched him to Asador and waited for a bonepriest to show up and bring me into the ranks, then moved to Elvandar, unless I'd been spotted by someone, there'd be no RP way to find out I was a bonepriest without seeing me in their armor, raising undead, etc. And yet, the favor check just goes, *BAM* oh look, dude follows Sathonys. Crusaders, if you don't mind, why don't you go tie him to a stick and broast him? I find that ability just wrong. Now, if it went more like, *BAM* oh look, he's not been a very nice person, you now have an RP event on your hands, because, for all the cleric knows, you've been carving up monsters you didn't realize were humanoid. (As a side note, I think there should be some warning when carving up humanoids) Then, you have the chance to go fix it, rather than get staked and torched.

User avatar
arxthas
Hero
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#16 Post by arxthas » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:50 am

This is actually a quite decisive poll. Only 4/26 want to keep it the way it is. 18/26 wants to remove at least the ability to see karma.

I am actually not sure if the second option includes "remove ability to see karma". From the way the options are ordered, I would guess it is not. But it could also make sense that you can not see any karma if you can see what god someone follows. It seems like a "heavier" detect. Or a different axis, somehow.

Edit: I should mention I voted for "Remove them altogether". I like the idea better that it was a challenge trying to figure out who's a witch and who is not by using social skills, etc. I could have voted for "Only leave the ability to see how much YOUR god favours them" too, I guess. It might even be better..

lanyara
Overlord
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#17 Post by lanyara » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:03 pm

Challenges are good to have.
Best race: halflings.

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#18 Post by luminier » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:56 pm

lanyara wrote:Challenges are good to have.
To expand on this, I think that yes indeed challenges are good to have. It's honestly not fun if there is no secret and espionage involved at all. Right now, all I have to do is beat someone up, get a cleric to check them and I know pretty well their exact motive.

However, with a system that would take out some of the "power" of favour checks, people will actually have to roleplay more, -from both sides of the equation-. In this respect I think the goodies might have it a lot easier from a roleplay perspective. Eventually all those torturings are going to break your evil character. It would be boring if every evil had the will of stone and never break to a Crusader for instance.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

ferranifer
Champion
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:16 am
Location: Europe CET

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#19 Post by ferranifer » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:46 pm

It is quite boring yes. People don't normally break when you tie them to a cross (inverted or straight) unless they already planned to switch their character's life experience and future. Just check the logs of Sathonite sacrifices. It's actually not much fun to be the victim past the first one or two torture RP sessions or visits to a cross/pyre/gallows.

I think the way to go with karma is to completely and utterly remove it from the game at all levels. The system that should handle "hardcoded" social interactions is reputation, not karma, and even those should be kept to the bare minimum (preventing NPC kills in absence of other players, shop robberies and the like). I don't like the distinction between good and evil and prefer something in the lines of altruistic/egoistic instead. Ultimately, I'd simply kill all alignment systems and let players/guilds/clergies form their own opinions of each other and build their own morality systems.

lanyara
Overlord
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

Re: Favour checks, POLL INCLUDED!

#20 Post by lanyara » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:29 pm

I think the way to go with karma is to completely and utterly remove it from the game at all levels.
Completely agree.
The system that should handle "hardcoded" social interactions is reputation, not karma, and even those should be kept to the bare minimum (preventing NPC kills in absence of other players, shop robberies and the like). I don't like the distinction between good and evil and prefer something in the lines of altruistic/egoistic instead. Ultimately, I'd simply kill all alignment systems and let players/guilds/clergies form their own opinions of each other and build their own morality systems.
Also agreed.

In a roleplaying MUD players don't need a system that guides them in pre-defined cliche setting with opinions like the one that is currently in the game.
Best race: halflings.

Post Reply