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isengoo
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby isengoo » Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:59 pm

If you ignore it then it's changed 8)

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luminier
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby luminier » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:19 pm

Like Per mentioned before, I still don't think ignoring the situation is the answer. We currently have a problem and it needs to be fixed now.

I am all for ignoring this once the war is over. This war has been boring frustrating and annoying.
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matusalem
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby matusalem » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:34 pm

I've been trying my best to stay out of this, even though I'm probably a faulted party in it. Really now, all this fussing is making me not want to play the game. So here's my two cents:

Firstly, as I see it, while linked, Mona's situation and Fernao's situations are not the same. Mona is an older character from way back who joined the Crusade. The hunting-guild-traitors drum is beat constantly within the Crusader Castle. I'll not go into details, but not only is it beat IC through coded features of the guild, there is also loads of OOC documentation about it. When I first started, the staff use to beat another drum. It was the in-character-consequences-for-in-character-actions drum. We don't hear that lovely tune as much, but I believe it still rings true. I can think of numerous IC ways Mona could've left the Crusade and not been hunted as an enemy; however, the path she chose isn't seriously one of them. Asral is an "evil" god, after all.* She can even continue on her current path, being more mindful that she's being hunted by enemies. (Matusalem has been attacked by Sathonites many-a-times, and none of them have tried to stun him. Not fussing, merely stating fact.) Believe it or not, the Crusade doesn't go running everytime a tower reports an enemy. Hell, I don't even think I do it half the time unless it's a Sathonite. So I don't have a whole lot of sympathy in this situation. The character isn't ruined. The character is experiencing adversity. (Personally, I think that's the fun part of re-inventing a character. I've done it before, and may do so again.)

Fernao's situation is a different one and I do feel sympathy and a bit of guilt for accidentally killing him near a tower. I believe Fernao is a new player, and I believe he's just joined his first guild. (Forgive me if I'm mistaken.) Geas has a HUGE learning curve for people from other MUDs. I experienced it too when I first got here, and it's incredibly frustrating. This game has a very different RP culture and standard than others, and I wouldn't trade it. Every other MUD I've seen has this hippy-drippy-drum-circle RP where we frolic and make dick jokes with our enemies. Fernao I believe is getting accustomed to the game, and since he's not a game coded perma-enemy, I think kid gloves are best for him unless he chooses to escalate things. I personally thought the broken arm thing was taking it easy. It left him alive and kept him from coming back to get in our way. He disagrees. Okay, that's fine. Now we know.

I think the real issue here is how we handle NEW players. Back when I was young, and tried to join a few guilds with a few "starter" characters, I was told by each and every character I asked to go around to the leaders of other guilds and talk with them about their guilds first. I don't see this being done anymore. I think it needs to be STRESSED to players that there is a huge burden placed on them the moment you're accepted into a guild. (One of my characters is currently responsible for a prospective new member, and I've told said character both IC and OOC later, now is not the time because the burden is just far too great for a new player.) What's more, some guilds have a greater burden than others. The Crusade being one. Druids have a tremendous burden on them, hence you see so few of them. I'm going to say right here to any new or prospective players looking to play Geas, DON'T be in a rush to join a guild. The most fun I've had with Matusalem was when he was guildless. It's a blast. Quite honestly, it's more fun trying to get into a guild than actually being in the guild, because once you join, it becomes work. Now I don't know how rigorous Fernao's entrance process was in getting into the Asralite Clergy, but I suspect by some of his actions prior to the war, it wasn't particularly informative for him. I think the burden of this sort of thing doesn't have to rest SOLELY on the shoulders of the Crusade, but of the community as a whole. Matusalem is a crotchety old man who loves telling young people boring stories. I know a few others who are the same. There needs to be more of this especially with truly new characters, rather than waving, and running off to hunt ogres or what have you. (And let me stress... if it sounds like I'm pointing fingers here, I'm pointing them at every single one of us as a whole. It's all our responsibility to train new players into the Geas RP culture.)

Take all this to mean whatever. I could've been drinking while I wrote this; you don't know. I'm tired of all the destructive criticism right now anyways.

poMatusalem

Post Script: Footnotes...
* Here I'll describe the good and evil array of the deities of Geas through my favorite metaphor: Steak. A steak may be cooked rare, medium, or well done, with medium rare and medium well done being the in-betweens. Since cooking a steak well done is in fact evil, Sathonys and Lilith, the evil gods, are well done. That makes Evren and Taniel rare, the good way to cook a steak. Zhakrin, of course, is medium, not great, but not burnt to a crisp either. That leaves Gwen and Asral. Gwen is medium rare, pretty good, but not as satisfying as that rare steak. Asral is medium well. Sure, he's not got that nasty burnt charcoal taste of a well done steak, but he's sure as hell overcooked.

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Desiderea
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby Desiderea » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:15 am

One issue I have with the Crusade is that they seem to be overpowered compared to everyone else. I.e. they seem to rule the realms. I don't know if this is because of long-standing characters like Luminier who are just plain stronger, or if there's coded things that make them that much more powerful or what. One thing I wonder about is watchtowers. Could other guilds possibly buy similar things with enough money? Why is it the Crusade gets them? It just seems to be a bonus they probably don't really need.

I don't see a problem with sticking to your guild rules, like hunting down people who abandon your guild and their vows. Obviously, if people are aware of those rules before joining, they should face the consequences if they choose to leave anyway. My char might not agree with such strict rules, but it makes sense IC. But, I think you also need to take the other player into consideration. If you've killed them a bazillion times already, there's no real point in continuing to do so until it's no fun for them to play anymore. Take a break or turn a blind eye once in awhile. It sounds like Luminier said he did stop hunting Mona for awhile. I'm not sure what caused this recent war, but at some point I think you can say your point has been made and go on with your other affairs. Like Ferranifer said, there has to be some way to end a war. I think the suggestion of some means of "forgiveness" would be nice. For example, if Mona were to make some petition/sacrifice to Taniel and Evren that would absolve her of her transgressions and get the Crusade to leave her be.

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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby lanyara » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:34 am

One of the biggest problem with the design of the game right now is that certain roleplay choices (In-Game choices) a character does means that you have to step on other people's toes.

Someone will be unhappy as a result.
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Delia
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby Delia » Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:08 am

One issue I have with the Crusade is that they seem to be overpowered compared to everyone else. I.e. they seem to rule the realms. I don't know if this is because of long-standing characters like Luminier who are just plain stronger, or if there's coded things that make them that much more powerful or what.


Luminier certainly counts, but then again every other guild has had it's Luminier's in the past(Yegerfin, Dalamar, to name a couple) and nothing prevents them from having one(or more) again. Balance of power tends to fluxuate quite the bit. Of course the Crusade being the official tshahark(or any other fighting heavy character seeking a guild) depository does tend to affect the outcome.

The evil-side would need a lot of infrastructure and more viable options to make them playable without being bashed by the rest of the mud. But that is another thread completely. Back to the Crusade.

One of the biggest issues I perceive is the complete lack of earthly laws or morals to follow. Anything earthly can be just completely ignored and tossed into the garbage bin. You can justify any action you take by your perfect faith and following the true gods and there are hardly anything to keep this system in check. Save for other players of course but even if you do resort to mob rule and lynch a crusader or two...they'd just come back angrier and with larger numbers. We've heard it before:"For hampering Crusader justice and assisting Crusader enemies...etc..." - Massacre ensues.

I'd like to see conflict between the Taniel clergy and the crusade. More so than some secret tea party discussions but what if the Archbishop of Taniel excommunicated the Lord Marshall or some other high ranking Crusader after a heated debate? Or actually took a stand when a Crusader started attacking the town guard after the bad guy escapes inside the city walls? The perfect allies symbiosis thing is not what was intended I hope.

And as for fanaticism, following your god and leading the religious life...somehow characters find perfect unwavering faith quite quickly and let their minds be subjugated by that of their god's agenda. Or rather, that is how it is often easily seen. I hope that this is not completely the case. But the point still stands. Crusaders with petty personal motives and goals? A Crusader trying to balance his piety with a normal life? Given the restrictions I've heard of(no real first-hand knowledge here) it is usually the fail(the crusade)-leave-and-die-a-thousand-deaths.

Either the Crusade should be given some slack in terms of RP leeway or then just accept the fact that they are the insect equivalents of Evren and Taniel on Forostar and sooner or later the mud starts to evolve towards the Crusade vs. the rest of the mud theme.
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby Mogwai » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:44 pm

Its hard for me to see any reason for the crusade to ever go against the tanielites. Crusaders are like the sword for the shield of tanielites. I just don't see it happening

well I gotta say crusaders are like batman (without repercussion from society), able to justify almost any action. Then with elite equipment at your disposal at pennies for the dollar in comparison to other guilds, ample abilities, consistent allies(tanielite) its easy to see why things are the way they are. Its very advantageous. Though not to take away from the effort of old characters with skillful players, it should be noted that even if you took away batman's gadgets he'd still be dangerous just not AS dangerous

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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby ferranifer » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:11 pm

This is quite an interesting point. Crusaders and Tanielites are like toe and nail and benefit greatly from the interplay between each other. I'm not sure if this was intended when the Crusaders were created, or if it's a result of the players involved, but they present a pretty much unified solid front. The connection between Crusaders and Taniels comes naturally.

On the other hand, the relationship between the Sathos, Order and Asrals has developed in a different way. They have absolutely nothing in common. Not only are they made for being separated but also have been "redirected" by the admin in several occasions to make sure they stay separated and even opposing to each other. Over the pass of time, they have become 3 different factions with their own lines of progress and goals (though not sure if I should call them goals at all). The connection between them is at best contrived.

I won't delve deeper into the "problem with the evil side" because well, it's been covered ad nauseum in this boards already and nothing has ever happened to address it. But, why hasn't this happened to the Crusader/Tanielite block? Why were the "evil" guilds kept separated while the "good" guilds were allowed to unite? What was the admins steering direction for the Crusaders?

I don't think it would be too hard to separate the Crusaders from the Taniels if people would actually want to do that at all. It'd only take for someone in the Taniel block, or even the Elvandar political landscape to actually care about the extreme methods of the Crusaders. Arguably they are already there but to help it out a bit you could just push the zealotry a notch with some new extremist directive given by Taniel/Evren itself (or whatever Luminier thinks it's Taniel/Evren, maybe even his own imagination) and there you go. Just push the Crussies beyond the line of the politically acceptable, even for the Taniels. Think Spanish Inquisition or the real Crusaders, which where absolutely horrible organizations. That's assuming the Crussies are actually inspired by the divine and they're not using everything and everyone around them to fulfill their own hidden agenda (*cough* Order *cough*).

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arxthas
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby arxthas » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:45 pm

Delia wrote:I'd like to see conflict between the Taniel clergy and the crusade. More so than some secret tea party discussions but what if the Archbishop of Taniel excommunicated the Lord Marshall or some other high ranking Crusader after a heated debate? Or actually took a stand when a Crusader started attacking the town guard after the bad guy escapes inside the city walls? The perfect allies symbiosis thing is not what was intended I hope.


Stuff like that already happened :-). There was a point in time where it was near a crisis. No, I'm not gonna share it. It's wrong assumptions.

I also like the idea though. Stuff like that is what makes life interesting, but with 1-3 active taniels/crussies there simply can't be too much politics.

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arxthas
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby arxthas » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:52 pm

ferranifer wrote:.... Think Spanish Inquisition or the real Crusaders, which where absolutely horrible organizations.....


Uhm, this is pretty much how I personally see the guilds. Only that horrible=medieval good(call it estaliblisment).

Taniels = inquisitors (not only) and Crusaders = "real" Crusaders. Given that for example the real inquisition was very much an economically motivated (such as gather the assets of regular people) I would say the game needs more of such. Or like the real Crusaders, actually invading and being the aggressor. Okay, the similiarity might not always be perfect, but I'd say the Catholic church and the Spanish Inquisitions are - to me - kind of what they are/should be like. Horrible, that is :-) As far as I know, inquisitior is already an official rank in the taniel clergy. There's nothing nice about these guys. Think what kind of a person a medieval lieutenant would be like, personally? A progressive feminst? :-) No..

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Desiderea
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby Desiderea » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:26 am

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Hm, if that were to happen, my char would probably stage a revolt. But then, that is rather difficult when all the people in power are so much stronger. Will have to find more like-minded people... :wink:

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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby ferranifer » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:56 am

Desiderea wrote:Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Hm, if that were to happen, my char would probably stage a revolt.


That's the whole point!

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arxthas
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby arxthas » Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:52 am

Do it! :-)

Stuff like that is a lot of fun. As long as it is not short cut immedietely with senseless PvP.

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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby krelji » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:20 am

arxthas wrote:Stuff like that is a lot of fun.

My char is certainly more than tempted to do it, but he's simply not
stupid enough to do it. You can't argue with religious fanatics, and
I'd expect it to end with just the kind of senseless PvP you mentioned.
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arxthas
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby arxthas » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:25 am

There is a risk, yes. I'm personally not inclined to jump to the gun immediately... I like looong stretched tensions to build up and shrivel all in its path. But the karma system makes it hard when you get The Truth revealed so easily. Maybe if you keep karma on the good side, you can run the side-show easier. Of coure, at some point even that will culminate to armed conflict.. and then you would better have loyal on your side.

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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby krelji » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:41 am

arxthas wrote:There is a risk, yes. ... Of coure, at some point even that will culminate to armed conflict.. and then you would better have loyal on your side.

I don't think my char could avoid an armed conflict for more than a RL
week. He is also almost certain that getting himself wouldn't change
anything even if he somehow managed to force the Crusade and the
Taniel clergy into an unconditional surrender.

All they'd have to do is to claim that they got some new orders from
Taniel or in case of the Crusade from Evren, forcing them to ignore the
terms and we'd be back where we started.
All knowledge is heresy. Yes, you heard me correctly.

It is the nature of religions to thrive on ignorance.

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arxthas
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby arxthas » Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:47 am

krelji wrote:All they'd have to do is to claim that they got some new orders from
Taniel or in case of the Crusade from Evren, forcing them to ignore the
terms and we'd be back where we started.


Well, if you set terms already from the start that you know can not be fulfilled, of course. If you set reachable terms, I do not see why the Crusade could not agree on it. But hey, if the idea is to revolt against the Crusade it is natural that they would not like it.

Personally I would not make my character claim that for example my god said this and that just to make my life easier, if that is what you meant. That is IMHO cheating. The only reason I could claim that my god said X and Y is if the character really believed that - which sometimes he will and sometimes not.

But sure, a revolt is a challenge. You can always dismiss it easily for whatever reason of what might happen. I mean it's surely a risk and if you want to play risk-free then do not do it. You would definetily not try to solo :-)

I think that there is supposed to be two sides of the coin- if you want to do a revolt, there would be a reason for it. This reason got to have higher value than the reason you might not want to do it. Revolts are dramatic because people risk their lives for a cause, but that is also why it is fun. IMHO it would be a good way to challange your character.. if you actually pull it off, it's stuff like that which matter, not how pumped your skills are.

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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby krelji » Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:23 am

arxthas wrote:Well, if you set terms already from the start that you know can not be fulfilled, of course. If you set reachable terms, I do not see why the Crusade could not agree on it.
This depends on what you consider as reachable. I simply don't see how
any terms that I'd expect the Crusade to agree on would be worth the
trouble you'd get yourself into.
arxthas wrote:But sure, a revolt is a challenge. You can always dismiss it easily for whatever reason of what might happen. I mean it's surely a risk and if you want to play risk-free then do not do it. You would definetily not try to solo
It has nothing to do with my preferred risk level. I simply don't see why
my char should attempt a revolt if it will most likely fail. Even in my best
estimations the chance for succeeding isn't above 1%, and I wouldn't
expect the Crusade to stick to those terms for more than a mudyear.

And my best estimations would be terms that I'd think the Crusade
might be willing to agree on.
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It is the nature of religions to thrive on ignorance.

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luminier
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby luminier » Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:55 am

arxthas wrote:Personally I would not make my character claim that for example my god said this and that just to make my life easier, if that is what you meant. That is IMHO cheating.


Thats not cheating, it's just lying IC. People do it all the time.
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby ferranifer » Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:18 am

The point was that it can actually be made to happen IC too, if that'd be fitting with the actual reality of what drives the Crusader's guild. It's not about making any character's lives easier, it's about modifying the role of the Crusaders in the game to better fit with the current game's realities. Of course, this would mean recognizing that there's a problem with the Crussies role in the game, and wanting to fix it in this way. It only takes an admin to say 'change it' for it to happen. You don't even need to make a live event or big deal out of it, I'm sure Luminier is used to this kind of steering interventions already.


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