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Crusader Roleplay

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arxthas
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby arxthas » Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:50 am

luminier wrote:
arxthas wrote:Personally I would not make my character claim that for example my god said this and that just to make my life easier, if that is what you meant. That is IMHO cheating.


Thats not cheating, it's just lying IC. People do it all the time.


Not if you do it as a means to making your life easier. Your character should only be lying if it suits your character to be lying about it. So if that just happens to be the case, sure. If you are claiming god X said that just to avoid a problem, it is cheating since you go OOC since you're doing something your character is not supposed to do.

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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby arxthas » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:03 am

krelji wrote:This depends on what you consider as reachable. I simply don't see how any terms that I'd expect the Crusade to agree on would be worth the
trouble you'd get yourself into.


If you can produce conditions that they would find reachable - sure, then revolt. If you don't think so, then don't revolt. Revolts come with a price :-)

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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby luminier » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:06 am

arxthas wrote:Not if you do it as a means to making your life easier. Your character should only be lying if it suits your character to be lying about it. So if that just happens to be the case, sure. If you are claiming god X said that just to avoid a problem, it is cheating since you go OOC since you're doing something your character is not supposed to do.


I think if beer drinking made Luminier's life easier, he would do it. Sure it's not something hes suppose to do, but it's not cheating either. Luminier likes following the rules, but if it makes his time dealing with others less of a headache he'll consider looking at something in a "different" way. Still not cheating.
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby arxthas » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:09 am

luminier wrote:I think if beer drinking made Luminier's life easier, he would do it. Sure it's not something hes suppose to do, but it's not cheating either. Luminier likes following the rules, but if it makes his time dealing with others less of a headache he'll consider looking at something in a "different" way. Still not cheating.


Ok, I think we're mixing up the terms here. What I'm saying is that if you - the player OOC luminier - thinks beer drinking makes Luminiers life easier while IC Luminier would never drink a beer simply because he never reflects about it or aligns to his moral code.. then it is cheating. It's not cheating for IC Lumi to decide to drink a beer even if it is against everything he stands for. That's just RP'ing a vulnerability.

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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby Mogwai » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:53 am

A revolt is not a viable option. It will be put down like the past couple of them. I'll be honest, I stopped actively playing mogwai because there was already other very strong crusaders running around and 'maintaining order'/destroying enemies, which is their task.
Simply put, armed revolt against the crusade would lead to destruction, I've watched this trend for some time now. Whether it was korsario w/ the asrals or others it never seemed like they could gather enough to topped two uber crusaders and a few lesser ones.
When was the last time any primary crusaders had to retreat inside a city because the enemy force outside was simply too strong? (npc raids don't count)
I remember long ago when mogwai was young that there was 3 vicious foes...long ago... 5 years ago. RL
maybe the crusader players are just exceptional at what they do because they've maintained it for a long time.
Only on the rare times could they take the tower of pain and maybe win there due to concentrated undead placement before.

the evils mention 'we just need to be crafty'
Well I'm sorry I'll take the figurative gatling guns over a pair of six shooters any day.

Some where along the lines, the concept of a ferocious melee evil withered away and disappeared, only the likes of cemoch truly factored in for long periods of time.

thus, I commend the crusade on defeating their foes and upholding the laws of the land, a revolt will be smashed. there is still no RP reason for an absolute and random taniel vs. crusader split without MASSIVE OOC intent.

-edit (spelling things)
Last edited by Mogwai on Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby luminier » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:45 am

Well it might be beside the point but I was forced to retreat, albeit not inside a city, to keep myself alive recently.

I agree if a revolt was led, it would eventually lead to PvP unless it was made very clear that people wanted to actually talk instead. If it goes to fighting, the Crusaders will come out on top one way or another, Ill guarantee that.

I can also guarantee that as long as Caelia and Luminier are friends IC, which they have been for a long time, no split will ever happen. Anyone who tries to ICly incite one will just be punished or expelled because the leaders are such good friends.
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby krelji » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:37 pm

luminier wrote:I agree if a revolt was led, it would eventually lead to PvP unless it was made very clear that people wanted to actually talk instead.
Getting banned or outlawed for just talking appears to be inevitable for
me, and after that it's only a small step towards PvP. Usually it tends to
be a bad idea to tell the Crusade that they're promoting Chaos rather
than Order, and that their methods are absolutely useless if they ever
intend to reach their goals.
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby luminier » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:57 pm

krelji wrote:Getting banned or outlawed for just talking appears to be inevitable for me, and after that it's only a small step towards PvP. Usually it tends to be a bad idea to tell the Crusade that they're promoting Chaos rather
than Order, and that their methods are absolutely useless if they ever intend to reach their goals.


Whew, if I had to ban everyone who didn't like Luminier....

I still have a hard time understanding everyones fear of shooting Luminier an IC mail about how to accomplish some goals. Does he seem like a psychopath? Does he seem like an unreasonable person who wouldn't hear people out? Anything the Crusade does is to reach a goal. We don't start wars for shits and giggles. At least since I started leading we don't.
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby krelji » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:23 pm

luminier wrote:Does he seem like an unreasonable person who wouldn't hear people out?
My char never assumed that he isn't reasonable, but he is certainly trying
to avoid discussing certain topics with him, because my char is pretty
sure that discussing them with religious fanatics would cause nothing but
trouble.
luminier wrote:Anything the Crusade does is to reach a goal.
I don't question that they're trying to reach a goal, but they're certainly
not getting any closer to it. Short term solutions tend to be insufficient
when you are trying to reach a goal, and currently that's the best what
the Crusaders can accomplish.
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby lanyara » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:55 pm

Let's say you have 3 different groups, with 3 different goals.

Each of these goals may be partially overlapping and will hinder at least one of the other two groups in one way or another.

Or even both groups, depending on any given goal.

Each group will state that their goal is the de-facto standard everyone else should adhere to (especially religious goals).
From their inner-group roleplay their goal makes a lot sense blabla wrong religion blabla insta-kill blabla wrong karma blabla.

Or non-religious goals like become the richest guild in every imaginable way.

Substitute any other goal here.

For the other two groups, the goal of that guild does not make as much sense in any way for several reasons.

What then will happen - and has happened - is that players in the "wrong" group (usually a weaker group) get extremely unhappy with the game as a whole.

So unhappy that they will:

- stop playing
- play other characters
- get disgruntled (and do either of the two other options)

Besides that, players will disagree with each other all the time. I am sure if you would ask the PLAYERS unattached to the involved characters, you would get a very broad overview of what problems the game is facing right now - the poll with the karma issue is a good example. (If you would ask the characters, especially main characters, then you will usually get a biased result from playing in that specific group rather than from trying to play in ALL groups)
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby arxthas » Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:12 am

Hehe, that was abstract Lanyara.. :-) What do you mean, actually? I can fit a number of things to what you're saying.

And also, what is "weak" in "weak group"? Are you talking about the combat system (i.e. winning PvP)? Or the ability to RP (oppurtunities)?

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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby luminier » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:14 pm

In This thread there is some good talk about how Crusaders should roleplay enemies.

Basically I feel like a lot of people think that if you leave the Crusaders, become a traitor, die once, you should not be hunted anymore.

I feel like that is generally fine.

But that traitor is still on our enemy list. we still get this
You hear a voice speaking in your mind, telling you "----- is a traitor
and an enemy of the Crusade. The punishment for this crime is death. Go and
execute our will!"


in our minds every time we pray.

It seems pretty clear that we are asked to kill whoever is a traitor... forever.

Is this really something that is good for the game?

In my personal opinion, if you join the Crusaders and later leave, you have to prepare yourself that your life in game is going to be hard if you keep playing that character. I would almost suggest just making a totally new character is easier. I remind everyone that when they -join- their vows are for life... but i mean really who is going to forsee that -leaving- the crusaders is best for their character when they are just -joining- us.

Long and short of it is, I don't mind RP interaction, but when it causes me stress in real life I don't like it. And hunting enemies forever is stressful to me.
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby Delia » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:06 am

The "forever hunt" does sound like it can become a drag, considering that the traitor might join up with a other good/mostly nice guild.

Personally I am curious about the permajoin feature which atleast two guild have at the moment. Shaos can choose if they are masters, I think, and mages do not have a choice when they "graduate". I wonder if this is, or becomes more common. It certainly changes things.
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby luminier » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:24 am

Delia wrote:The "forever hunt" does sound like it can become a drag, considering that the traitor might join up with a other good/mostly nice guild.

Personally I am curious about the permajoin feature which atleast two guild have at the moment. Shaos can choose if they are masters, I think, and mages do not have a choice when they "graduate". I wonder if this is, or becomes more common. It certainly changes things.


I feel it is really stressful in real life for me and causes terrible guild relations in game. if i followed every law all the time, the crusaders would be at war with every guild!

i would prefer if the Crusaders got a permajoin feature.. but it would limit RP somewhat wouldn't it?
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby Delia » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:27 am

Reaching a point where everyone is a permamember could be dull. I think having some of both types with permamembers as a minority sounds fun. Especially when the troublemaker is a permamember ;) That is something that still remains to be seen thought, how things work out.

Anyhoo, I do not think there is too much reason to worry for everyone to be a permamember as currently it is for masters of guild and I guess the little I remember of the discussions(in this forum somewhere?), that is how it would be if it became more widely spread.
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby Aslak » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:01 am

I think permamember is a most horrible idea to solve problems. There is nothing in the world that could make a character stick to a guild if he decides to go against it.
If it is enforced by code, it could lead to some questionable situations where the guild is struck with a traitor (a real one, not just one leaving) and can do nothing about it.

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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby Delia » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:52 am

I think that currently, in its limited form it does work. Shaos have it optional and with mages I think it actually can clear potential trouble. Also, there are in-game reasons for it as well. For mages atleast it makes sense. I do not know much about the new shao stuff. But yes, I can see how it could be just a horrible mess.
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby luminier » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:22 pm

Typically leaders in a guild aren't the ones leaving, especially if there is some benefit they receive from choosing to be a permanent member...

theres a problem with this though.

Every member of the Crusaders are suppose to be permanent members. we tell every person when they join that the vows are for life. once you take them you cannot untake them. if you turn away from taniel or evren you'll be killed forever.

so it doesn't really make sense to have perma members in a guild like the crusaders when really, everyone should be a "perma member" unless they want to get attacked/killed constantly


im all for leaving the guild if you really want to.

but when you leave, join another guild, then your old guild has to fight your new guild? this conflict could essentially last forever if the person chooses to stay with the new guild. I really hate the idea of a war without end. what can we do to prevent that moving forward?

also this seems really to only be a problem with the crusaders. everyone else just seems to ignore their traitors which is kind of weird to me. what does everyone else think?


i just don't like getting stressed about a game!
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby Delia » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:49 pm

When it was custom that experienced shaos somersaulted to the next guild after learning enough stuff there were two distinct periods of time. "The lawless era" and the introduction of the courts of law in the game.

When there were no courts and no records kept, killing a traitor was not that big a deal. You went and you either succeeded or not. Then again all kinds of nonsensical behaviour was afoot during this time to offset this.

When the courts came it really disarmed the shaos as most traitors either joined friendly guilds or became sathos and were fought against anyways. Also the shaos have always been more close to somewhat civilized behaviour, being calm and mediative when it came to dealing with anything that might result in harming other people. Actively going against established society was frowned upon.

D did push her agenda during her days as a speaker which I think influenced the shaos somewhat. I guess there were both good and bad decisions made but so it goes.

So in a way I have always been on the other side of the fence in this one. It has been always very hard to enforce guild rules after someone went traitor. Various methods were tried with not too much sense of accomplishment.
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Re: Crusader Roleplay

Postby Delia » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:04 pm

One method could be talking with leaders of other guilds though. Letting them know a bit what is going on and what the end results could be because one failing that has been a constant one shared by most of us as a group is that we do not like to be bad to someone, we prefer being very nice and cordial and all things gentlemanly in the way we act, thus hurting the game.

It might require a bit of hardening our skins as players and travel the extra mile when establishing how the world works, how the simulated communities work and interact. So if your character becomes a traitorous scum, be your character old or young, it could or even should have ruinous consequences for your character. And that is something we should learn to accept and welcome regardless of being on the receiving end or not.

We should learn how to fall gracefully as players and recognize that the one who is acting out of spite is the character, not the player of that character. Nor do you play against some other player, you play together and create a story about the conflict your characters might have.

Bit of a rant, sorry, and not accusing anyone here but I sometimes have thought some pacts, actions, laws and/or whatnots have been done or put into place because they protect the feelings of the players, not the characters themselves. Regular human behaviour, that. I could be completely wrong however, I do acknowledge that but I think this is something everyone could reflect upon.

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:)
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