Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

Anything to say about roleplay? Want to share a story? This is the right place.

Moderator: Wizards

Message
Author
User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#1 Post by luminier » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:02 am

I decided to start this topic to alleviate peoples certain issues about the game. It's based off comments in the thread "Wars". That topic was just made for a different reason than I felt it was going so I made a new one.
jezz wrote: Personally, and without knowing much about what it is going on here, I must say while I played GEAS, ...... While that kind of behaviour is possible with satho priests, asrals, shaolins, legionaries, etc. it is not possible to do with a crusader.

It is the background behind the crusader guild what makes them so dangerous, not for the players, but for the guild as a whole.
I am going to disagree, heres why. Yes it is fair to say that there have been strong characters in the past who may have dominated the MUD. It is also fair to say that those who dominate should soften their roleplay. The fact that it -isn't- possible to do as a Crusader honestly just not true. There have been countless (and I mean countless) where Ganon or some other Sathonite or some Crusader enemy has run by a watchtower and I've been online Luminier and just ignored it. I know that going against Crusaders or other goodies are difficult (having done it myself, my alt was actually -killed- 6v1 in defence of his guild "hey! who needs stunmode!"). Back to my point, certainly there are times if I know someone is causing havoc or hasn't die in a week or two well it's time to -try- to kill them again even though I consider myself exceptional at taking prisoners and actually showing a lot of mercy where Crusader code largely doesn't call for it. Theres ways around that though. Luminier could easily argue that showing mercy and giving a chance at redemption without death again and again would garner more respect than just killing someone OVER and OVER. Certainly, there are some cases where death is the only answer, but hey, I don't see anyone taking it easy on Luminier (jerks.).
jezz wrote: Code a guild with amazing pvp powers and equip, and restrict their RP to: "you're not with me, I kill you" and sooner or later a player will take the "king of the crown" place, making impossible for the rest to play.
Another thing I don't agree with. Sure we are a strong guild, but so is everyone else. It's unfair to say the Crusaders are OP because they have strong characters in them. If Luminier was an Asral Cleric, he would be strong. If he was a Taniel Cleric, he would be strong. If he was a Ranger, he would be strong. Sure the Crusaders have benefits, but, IMO they are fairly balanced with other guild GIVEN that the other players are at least near the same level. If a strong character like Mazar or Blizt or Jezz or Cemoch(comon...) or whatever fought Luminier one on one I am sure I would have trouble and I would have trouble because those characters are near the same experience level and the guilds are very well balanced IMO.
lanyara wrote: I think the guild agenda - including the code enforced part - of the crusade is way too restrictive. That's the main problem.
The balance aspect is another problem too - if crusaders would be weaker then other groups like the Sathos could become stronger and hence more active too.

The problem is that even the players of the crusaders don't have too much fun that way right now (that's my opinion).

If you look at who is active, and who is not, then well - reallife has an influence, but you would see that the crusaders as a whole aren't that active currently.
WHY CRUSADERS ARE NOT OVERPOWERED AND WHY THEY ARE BALANCED WITH THE REST OF THE MUD.

Let me say this again. It is unfair to say the Crusaders are overpowered because Luminier exists. If I stopped playing him NOONE would complain about the Crusaders because they would lose their bread. And butter(matusalem) without bread just tastes like crap.

So having said that, lets continue.

Sure we have nice weapons. Taniel's get glowing swords of awesome(also wrathbringer), Asrals get flaming polearms of awesome, Sathonites get bone weapons that can me made -exceptionally- (and i mean that) powerful, Rangers get good bows, Shaolin get tons of skills to learn, The Order gets their quite amazing bonuses. Thieves, just cool.

Sure we have Unicorns. Clerics get miracles that can kill even a very experienced character like Luminier easily. I've said it before, I think Rangers lack here, Shaolin get tattoos and are able to focus, and The Order gets their quite amazing bonuses. Thieves, remain cool.

Sure we get some buffs of protection, do Clerics not? Does the Order not? Do the Shaolin not? The Rangers just get nice armour (but hey elven arrows are nasty in those good bows =(... use them).

Watchtowers are also balanced. Stationary, only allowed a certain amount, come at a cost to the guild. Sathonites get undead they can put anywhere (we can only build towers in certain places) and they can raise revenants which are as strong if not stronger than a watchtower.

Also, I like being a Crusader. I also wouldn't mind not being a Crusader (being Lord Marshall is pretty exhausting after sometime.) but I know that everyone who is active and in the guild (matu, myself, kelawyth, jormungand, arxthas) enjoys the roleplay at least somewhat, or else... why would they... make the character?
lanyara wrote: Wars in general don't work in the game - the result of wars, especially if they aren't stopped, is that the playerbase drops. Wars are affecting the game too negatively.

A decline in a playerbase is terrible for any MUD. You absolutely need players to interact with in one way or the other. The best agenda makes no sense to have if there are no playercharacters who carry it forward.
Wars work, it's the players that refuse to budge on terms even when they have clearly lost who don't make it work. I agree maybe asking Mona to leave was too extreme (Im still a little unsure as to whether she shouldve been accepted in the first place but eh we're not here to talk about that). But look at Axstream. Like what the hell man, it took burning down the temple and changing code for the war to end? Thats asinine.

Wars do work though. I've had wars with players other than Asrals (rofl) and they worked just fine. Crusader/Ranger war - fine. Crusader/Sathonite war - fine. Crusader/Thief war - went too far, but it still ended (horribly I might add). Like I said it's based on the players. If you are too stubborn wars aren't going to work. If IRL you are too unwilling to give up because thats just how -you- are, think of your character. Trying actually roleplaying that dying 10 times is actually shitty. Please by god. Do not roleplay that the gods have given you infinite strength because you've died enough times your stats don't go lower. Jesus when I heard this from a PC I just about died IRL.
lanyara wrote:PO Jezz wrote in another note, about "powertraining up", and it has indeed become a way too general trait of the MUD.

Trained up characters will dominate in PvP and if the players behind these characters would be stubborn enough, the whole game would be locked in non-stop PvP. That makes it hard for young characters to join guilds, and they would often become PvP targets too. No surprise that there are many guildless characters.
I must be in some kind of mood because again, I disagree. I definitely would not go as far to say it has become a -general- trait. That is just ignorant. You can't look at a few characters and say everyone is doing it. Powertraining also implies that that character never roleplays and just grinds skills up down sideways left and right until they are stupidly good. This is a trend I have -not- noticed except for a very -few- certain characters but even then it could hardly be called powertraining.

This just adds to the arguement that people shouldn't RUSH to get into guilds. Try to make yourself actually useful before joining a guild. And those responsible for accepting people should be selective as well. Being noobie in a guild, doesn't make you a king, it makes you a target. Especially if you attack a character that is 20 times your strength (don't do this youll die).
lanyara wrote: In my opinion there is no need at all to have code that wants to enforce permanent PvP - there would be no alternative to it in the long run. And how would any guild work without players in it either?
Again, not trying to be an asshole, but this isn't a chat room. Conflict is going to happen, it's what makes a MUD a MUD. If you don't come here for the conflict and just want to talk/roleplay thats fine, just don't become involved in PvP (but admit it, it's really attractive when someone is messing with what your character believes =D)
lanyara wrote: Compare two crusader characters - I don't want to give any character names, so let's say Joe the crusader and Henry the crusader.

Joe is strong enough to use PvP, Henry is not.

The difference between these two will be immense. One achieves PvP aims, the other does not, and the resulting roleplay will also differ immensely between Joe and Henry. And of course of other characters who meet either Joe or Henry.
I wouldn't actually say any Crusader -aims- to achieve PvP (watch everyone disagree with me based on the amount of fights I get into). I certainly don't. If I could solve all problems through talking I would. But sometimes players roleplay too thick headedly so someone needs to pierce their head with a spear. But really thats just the game, thats not Crusaders looking for PvP. Anyone could do this. Asrals could actually be honorable and care about war (not stop playing). Sathonites are a hard nut because it is their aim to actually kill maim capture sacrifice. If anyone I would say their main aim would be PvP because interaction between chars through torture is one of their main sources of fun IMO.

Saying the Crusaders are PvP oriented might be true but every GUILD should be IMO. No guild should sit on the sidelines doing nothing in way of politics or fighting. That should be left to the guildless but even then I am not entirely sure they should be completely neutral either. However if you are guildless you are not bound by any rules but your own so it's much easier to control being neutral or not. I personally like neutral people and I love roleplaying with them.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Mogwai
Veteran
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:15 pm

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#2 Post by Mogwai » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:20 pm

I'll just say this, You could not hope to accomplish the crusades goals with the shao-lins resources.

Crusaders can go on offense like no other guild. Clerics are at a huge offensive weakness if they try to pursue a crusader...

...say luminier is retreating from random death priest
...luminier retreats into next room...death priest follows...
...death priest needs a good amount of time to cast...
...luminier then feints and gets a critical...
...the ghost of random death priest floats away...

Now granted, clerics have far greater defensive and trapping attributes(undead).

But factor in that taniel clerics can counter some of the enemy clerics abilities and reply with their own...

Taniel clerics are the shield in many ways,
Crusaders are the sword/spear that can hunt down enemies with greater efficiency.

And thats fine, it makes logical sense that they work together.

I don't think the crusade is so overpowered so much as the evils/asrals have nothing like the crusade active.

There is no other warrior guild aligned with any of the other clergy.
While you might mention The Order being aligned with sathonites...
they don't function together almost ever. Their actions are rarely coordinated.
Also, how many Order warriors have taken the field of battle in the last few years. Maybe 2 at a time? well great... sure they may be good, but that is countered by a pair of elite crusaders.

yeah, I know that there won't be more any more guilds added any time soon.

Maybe add a pure melee aspect to the other clergies to make up for the deficiencies.

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#3 Post by luminier » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:55 pm

Mogwai wrote:I'll just say this, You could not hope to accomplish the crusades goals with the shao-lins resources.
Thats Why the Crusaders are the Crusaders and not the Shaolin. Every guild has a different goal. That comment is just silly.
Mogwai wrote: Crusaders can go on offense like no other guild. Clerics are at a huge offensive weakness if they try to pursue a crusader...

...say luminier is retreating from random death priest
...luminier retreats into next room...death priest follows...
...death priest needs a good amount of time to cast...
...luminier then feints and gets a critical...
...the ghost of random death priest floats away...

Now granted, clerics have far greater defensive and trapping attributes(undead).
Well you can't be mentally retarded when you are fighting, you have to use some strategy. Make it so I can't run. Many times Ganon has trapped me and like five other people and hes killed us all with just Ganon and some undead. If you make it so I can just move rooms and force you to recast, thats obviously not a strategy thats going to work..? Seems pretty obvious to me.
Mogwai wrote: But factor in that taniel clerics can counter some of the enemy clerics abilities and reply with their own...

Taniel clerics are the shield in many ways,
Crusaders are the sword/spear that can hunt down enemies with greater efficiency.

And thats fine, it makes logical sense that they work together.
So because we team together it's overpowered? Whats stopped you from teaming with other people? It's not like you couldn't do exactly what the Crusaders/Taniels do. Some might argue it's "bad roleplay". IMO no roleplay is bad if you can clearly justify it ICly. If you believe the Crusaders are fanatics who are trying to take over the world, well that calls for some drastic measures. Work towards a goal and achieve it any means necessary.
Mogwai wrote: I don't think the crusade is so overpowered so much as the evils/asrals have nothing like the crusade active.

There is no other warrior guild aligned with any of the other clergy.
While you might mention The Order being aligned with sathonites...
they don't function together almost ever. Their actions are rarely coordinated.
Also, how many Order warriors have taken the field of battle in the last few years. Maybe 2 at a time? well great... sure they may be good, but that is countered by a pair of elite crusaders.
Which gets back to my point, which I am glad you agree with, that a guild isn't overpowered because the characters in it are strong. Thats just a strong character. There have obviously been many times when the Crusaders have been very weak and the Sathonites have been very weak and the Taniels... etc etc etc....

The Order guild is not aligned with the Sathonites to my knowledge. They were not coded in such a way and any alliance I am sure would be something like I described above, an IC choice based on certain roleplay.

And again just because something isn't active doesn't mean another guild is overpowered (I am not saying you said this Mogwai, but just so others don't get confused). Every guild has periods of activity and inactivity. When the Sathonites were ass stomping Luminier when he was one of the only active Crusaders, I didn't complain. Why does it happen vice versa? Why is it that I can grin and bear it, while everyone else just sulks and complains? If you don't like the Crusaders, why not get a big group together and start killing them? Or better yet! Start talking to them. (Oh and that stuff about us not listening, give us a shot. If you don't believe something will work or you don't even try it - it's definitely not gonna work.)
Mogwai wrote: yeah, I know that there won't be more any more guilds added any time soon.

Maybe add a pure melee aspect to the other clergies to make up for the deficiencies.
We would need more players to get more guilds, it's just supply and demand. There are alot of ways Sathonites or Taniels or Asrals could be pure melee. Sathonites can make their weapons stronger and actually have a specific rank that makes their melee better. Taniels (If you have seen Garl in action) also have the ability to be extremely effective just in terms of combat. They have that glowing blade that does amazing damage as well as a mithril rod that is useful for parry as well as disarm. Asrals? Are you joking? God of War and you don't think they have a melee aspect? Fauchard of flames ring any bells? Blessed weapons? They even get favour for simply killing things.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Mogwai
Veteran
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:15 pm

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#4 Post by Mogwai » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:38 pm

Mogwai wrote: Crusaders can go on offense like no other guild. Clerics are at a huge offensive weakness if they try to pursue a crusader...

...say luminier is retreating from random death priest
...luminier retreats into next room...death priest follows...
...death priest needs a good amount of time to cast...
...luminier then feints and gets a critical...
...the ghost of random death priest floats away...

Now granted, clerics have far greater defensive and trapping attributes(undead).
luminier wrote:Well you can't be mentally retarded when you are fighting, you have to use some strategy. Make it so I can't run. Many times Ganon has trapped me and like five other people and hes killed us all with just Ganon and some undead. If you make it so I can just move rooms and force you to recast, thats obviously not a strategy thats going to work..? Seems pretty obvious to me.
Exactly. The crusade has great tactical flexibility because their paired with Taniels. The sathos DO NOT. the asrals DO NOT. they have to sit around and charge their miracles and can't move or else lose them. I see them making tank priests that can just get lit up by heavy hitters and sacrifice their actually miracle ability significantly. Their is no way you can enter a room if the crusaders are already in their. instead you can shoot the breeze and hope the enemies come to you.

Mogwai wrote: But factor in that taniel clerics can counter some of the enemy clerics abilities and reply with their own...

Taniel clerics are the shield in many ways,
Crusaders are the sword/spear that can hunt down enemies with greater efficiency.

And thats fine, it makes logical sense that they work together.
luminier wrote:So because we team together it's overpowered? Whats stopped you from teaming with other people? It's not like you couldn't do exactly what the Crusaders/Taniels do. Some might argue it's "bad roleplay". IMO no roleplay is bad if you can clearly justify it ICly. If you believe the Crusaders are fanatics who are trying to take over the world, well that calls for some drastic measures. Work towards a goal and achieve it any means necessary.
you have allies on demand. ones that perfectly complement/mask your deficiencies. Who are the other priests supposed to team with?
the all of two rarely awake order members? all that you need to do is line call an ally from the temple. no questions asked. its not even close with any sort of evil or neutral
No other guild tandem that can heal theirs allies w/ extreme efficiency (druids are gone) or mass buff their entire team up w/ protection of evil and others then use their pure heavy hitting melee.

Mogwai wrote: I don't think the crusade is so overpowered so much as the evils/asrals have nothing like the crusade active.

There is no other warrior guild aligned with any of the other clergy.
While you might mention The Order being aligned with sathonites...
they don't function together almost ever. Their actions are rarely coordinated.
Also, how many Order warriors have taken the field of battle in the last few years. Maybe 2 at a time? well great... sure they may be good, but that is countered by a pair of elite crusaders.
luminier wrote:Which gets back to my point, which I am glad you agree with, that a guild isn't overpowered because the characters in it are strong. Thats just a strong character. There have obviously been many times when the Crusaders have been very weak and the Sathonites have been very weak and the Taniels... etc etc etc....
which brings me to my point. the sathonites and asrals have been weak for over two years. this is why I stopped playing. It just saddens me that the golden days are gone. this is why the strong sleep. I'm not spending another 80 days to make a char strong enough just so that it can make up for the problems of not having heavy hitters in the asrals or sathonites.
luminier wrote:If you don't like the Crusaders, why not get a big group together and start killing them? Or better yet! Start talking to them. (Oh and that stuff about us not listening, give us a shot. If you don't believe something will work or you don't even try it - it's definitely not gonna work.)
This is a joke. No one is going to bother spending 40 days on a char just so it can be owned by the combined power of two guilds.
Why wake up in geas if the only options are get smashed as someone opposing the crusade and tanielites or smash the weak as a crusade and tanielites.
Mogwai wrote: Maybe add a pure melee aspect to the other clergies to make up for the deficiencies.
luminier wrote:We would need more players to get more guilds, it's just supply and demand. There are alot of ways Sathonites or Taniels or Asrals could be pure melee. Sathonites can make their weapons stronger and actually have a specific rank that makes their melee better. Taniels (If you have seen Garl in action) also have the ability to be extremely effective just in terms of combat. They have that glowing blade that does amazing damage as well as a mithril rod that is useful for parry as well as disarm. Asrals? Are you joking? God of War and you don't think they have a melee aspect? Fauchard of flames ring any bells? Blessed weapons? They even get favour for simply killing things.
[/quote]
I'm laughing at this. these little weapon power ups will never come close to the insta-killing abilities of pure melee warriors like crusaders.
Fauchard of flames don't contend with death blows from rider lances.
Priests who have to focus on wisdom and knowledge to spread out their development will get shredded by pure melee characters who don't have too for one on one.
almost every priest you can only pray that an elite crusader doesn't maul you in the first couple of attacks.
The sathonite weapon increase is nothing special.
thats why their should be warriors to battle warriors.
I'm not calling for more guilds, I'm pointing out for the need for a pure warrior aspect to the guilds.
I can name over a half dozen players that stopped playing simply because the balance of power is so broken right now.

You might say, then make an evil this or that, no one wants to spend a couple of weeks online just to make a lone evil/rebel.

Note: edit of spelling was made

ferranifer
Champion
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:16 am
Location: Europe CET

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#5 Post by ferranifer » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:53 pm

Im not going to really comment on the core of this post, since I think this horse is dead and beaten already as seen all over the place in this forum and I rather not repeat myself. My opinion in the matter is hopefuly clear by now and Im glad people like Jezz (hey man) has chimed in to bring some insight from the past as well.

But I do want to clarify something about the Sathonites since it does affect the veracity of this discussion. The sathonites do not have any rank that actually mechanicaly favours melee combat. Also, though they can indeed hallow their weapons, the actual benefit they get from that in combat is both negligible and also equivalent or weaker to any other form of blessing in game. On top of that, the armours they have were made purposely crap and pretty much every single aspect of their gameplay benefits were also purposedly made _worst_ than the equivalents from other guilds (I know this, _I_ made them purposely crap). I wont comment about the ghoul benefits since they were coded after my time, I can see how they are quite strong though I personally dont like them at all since I believe they pushed the guild into a niche they didnt need to be pushed into, but I digress.

On the other hand, for the little discussions Ive had with the Satho players since I came back, there is at least one specific spell from the Crusaders which is a balance breaker for the Sathos, which is the aoe fear. Apparently that spell can single handedly wreck the ability of groups of attackers to coordinate and actually put up a proper group fight.

dragan
Journeyman
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:54 pm

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#6 Post by dragan » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:13 pm

Miracle "hopping" is actually the biggest problem for cleric chars. There is not much you can do about it and even a dwarf with dwarven ultimate agi (buffed though) cannot block a big human/tshahark Crusader from escaping if there was only one exit. Pretty high physical stats (more a warrior than a priest), Parry 100, Defence 99, Shield in the 70's and mood defend does also not prevent a big Crusader to beat the shit out of you. It is simply not possible to parry the hits. Elven clerics may be able to parry, but they have the problem of taking many deathcrits. So you can choose if you want to die instantly if hit or if it needs 2-3 strong hits - the result in the end will be the same. That is about the option for a cleric char. If this sounds like whining it is not intented - i am just stating facts. :)

Yes, there are of course exceptions where the Crusader gets beaten up ...

dragan
Journeyman
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:54 pm

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#7 Post by dragan » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:40 pm

May be extremely off topic, but I am just getting inspired by the Necromongers (Chronicles of Riddick on TV). Reminds me a lot of the Crusade. Convert! You must be purified! Bow to the Lord Marshall! You keep what you kill! For the Underverse! ... Reminds me pretty much of the Crusade. Guess that's what the Crusade really plans. To take everyone to the Underverse ...

Btw. I cannot stop thinking about the old computer games "Crusader - No Regret" and "Crusader - No Remorse" if I hear the word Crusade .. Anyone else knows this feeling?

isengoo
Champion
Posts: 828
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:38 pm

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#8 Post by isengoo » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:10 pm

Without miracle dodging the Asrals are pretty flippin strong.

Need I remind you of this? Isen was pretty young then, not sure how far along Rex was.. but as you can see, Asral miracles are pretty great. Super easy to dodge them, though, which is a different topic.

http://wiki.geas.de/bin/view/Main/DuelWithRex

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#9 Post by luminier » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:15 pm

ferranifer wrote:Im not going to really comment on the core of this post, since I think this horse is dead and beaten already as seen all over the place in this forum and I rather not repeat myself. My opinion in the matter is hopefuly clear by now and Im glad people like Jezz (hey man) has chimed in to bring some insight from the past as well.
If you aren't going to comment on the core of what I posted, why bother posting?
ferranifer wrote: But I do want to clarify something about the Sathonites since it does affect the veracity of this discussion. The sathonites do not have any rank that actually mechanicaly favours melee combat. Also, though they can indeed hallow their weapons, the actual benefit they get from that in combat is both negligible and also equivalent or weaker to any other form of blessing in game. On top of that, the armours they have were made purposely crap and pretty much every single aspect of their gameplay benefits were also purposedly made _worst_ than the equivalents from other guilds (I know this, _I_ made them purposely crap). I wont comment about the ghoul benefits since they were coded after my time, I can see how they are quite strong though I personally dont like them at all since I believe they pushed the guild into a niche they didnt need to be pushed into, but I digress.
Actually they do have such a rank. I don't know what type of drug you are on but there is a rank called "Templar" that deals specifically with -melee- combat this allows them to devote their weapons. Also, Hallow is not negligible and yes it is equivalent, thats called this thing called "balance" that I keep talking about. Their armours are crap? Are you joking me? Very protective, very light. I don't even know what to say to that, it's just plain not true. What niche did they get pushed into? It's not like the Sathonites rely on ghoul undeads.
ferranifer wrote: On the other hand, for the little discussions Ive had with the Satho players since I came back, there is at least one specific spell from the Crusaders which is a balance breaker for the Sathos, which is the aoe fear. Apparently that spell can single handedly wreck the ability of groups of attackers to coordinate and actually put up a proper group fight.
Which only works given certain conditions. I've had times where I have used it, nothing happened and 6 players died because of it. It's hit or miss it's not a sure thing and going into a fight relying only one the AoE fear is -not- a solid game plan. Oh and btw whether it works or not, it's WEAKER if we try it again. Oh ya we are so broken.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

ferranifer
Champion
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:16 am
Location: Europe CET

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#10 Post by ferranifer » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:41 pm

I coded those ranks and those armours. Unless they have been modified (which is perfectly possible) I made them worst than all other similar armours in game for balance reasons, since the evil side was very strong at the time and they did not need any help. They were so bad that noone wore them. Templar is just a rank and the only reason it's the "military" branch is for roleplay. Also, the Order did not exist at the time, and it was kind of cool to have internal roleplay about the armed side of the guild (Dalamar) and the spellcasting side (Ferranifer). That's pretty much the extent of the Templar rank as a combat oriented rank. Hallow's buff is minuscule at best and in fact has little to do with melee combat, but that's something that shouldn't be disclosed OOC.

Mind that the evil side was strong because of sheer numbers, player activity and team coordination. They did not need strong gear, and as such they did not get it. It was a premeditated balance decision.

I wasnt talking about the undead ghouls, but about the cannibalism. The niche I talk about is about becoming the unrefutable disgusting subhuman evil side. In my opinion itd have been way more interesting to push them in a different direction that would make it easier for them to get involved into politics, but hey things have developed in a different way over the years.
Last edited by ferranifer on Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#11 Post by ganandorf » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:44 pm

I haven't commented on these issues because really i think all the arguing going on on the forum is rediculous. I check the forum every once in a while and usually end up feeling like the core conflicts in the game (between guilds) is really going to shit, uninteresting, and is adding nothing to the game and actually taking away from the game.

As it is now the game isn't balanced. Why? The player base is small and theres only a few characters in each guild. The characters in the crusade are much older than the characters in any of the other guilds.

Theres a few things I hate about the crusade.

Unicorns being the best mount in the game, and watchtowers so that they know where everyone is at every moment? Considering Unicorns can get them across the map in really under 2 minutes, Watchtowers are unnecessary. They're taking away from the game, incase that wasn't blatently obvious. Making it harder for anyone who is an enemy of or on bad terms with the crusade. Combined with the 2 minutes it takes unicorns to get anywhere in the map, and charging being basically a one hit kill, it's not fun.

Their abilities, their weapons, and their armour are all fair. I don't see anything wrong with any of those.

I like how sathonites play, theyre not overpowered nor are they underpowered. We win a few fights, lose a few fights. They feel just right.

I have an asralite character that's really young. Alot of the miracles are pretty cool, but they have no healing for their team members, which is pretty stupid. Their guild hall is also shit. Only one or two of the guards are actual asral clerics, when in fact, every single guard should be an asral cleric, wearing asral armours and using asral weapons and miracles. The fact that they already aren't is stupid, and shows how little thought was put into putting together their new keep.

Edit: Also I didnt comment on it, but the crusader ability that makes us scatter is really annoying. It turns what would be a pretty fair and fun fight, into a bunch of sathonites running all over the place. What's worse is that it seems like its effective almost all the time. I think removing it would be a kick in the ass for crusaders (they may think, finally we found a really good way to screw with the sathonites and now theyre getting rid of it).
Meow

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#12 Post by ganandorf » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:00 pm

luminier wrote:Oh and btw whether it works or not, it's WEAKER if we try it again. Oh ya we are so broken.
That came of really condescending and deuchebaggy. Considering you started the discussion and you want it to be a good one, that's a pretty stupid thing to do.
Meow

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#13 Post by luminier » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:18 pm

ferranifer wrote:I coded those ranks and those armours. Unless they have been modified (which is perfectly possible) I made them worst than anything else in game for balance reasons, since the evil side was very strong at the time and they did not need any help. They were so bad that noone wore them. Templar is just a rank and the only reason it's the "military" branch is for roleplay. Also, the Order did not exist at the time, and it was kind of cool to have internal roleplay about the armed side of the guild (Dalamar) and the spellcasting side (Ferranifer). That's pretty much the extent of the Templar rank as a combat oriented rank. Hallow's buff is minuscule at best and in fact has little to do with melee combat, but that's something that shouldn't be disclosed OOC.
Hallow=/=Devote. Hallow is one thing, Devote is another. I am talking about devote and you keep talking about Hallow. I am aware that hallow is not for melee, devote is. While you think the armour might "suck" it really doesn't For the reasons I've explained. You can wear full Sathonite armour and have like 10% encumberance. How is that not awesome lol?
ferranifer wrote: I wasnt talking about the undead ghouls, but about the cannibalism. The niche I talk about is about becoming the unrefutable disgusting subhuman evil side. In my opinion itd have been way more interesting to push them in a different direction that would make it easier for them to get involved into politics, but hey things have developed in a different way over the years.
Ohhhh I see. However, just because someone is a cannibal doesn't mean they can't speak or be spoken to or conduct politics with. Look at Hannibal from Silence of the Lambs. He was amazingly smart and tactical. Whats stopping people from eating people and being able to make treaties?
ganandorf wrote:I haven't commented on these issues because really i think all the arguing going on on the forum is rediculous. I check the forum every once in a while and usually end up feeling like the core conflicts in the game (between guilds) is really going to shit, uninteresting, and is adding nothing to the game and actually taking away from the game.

As it is now the game isn't balanced. Why? The player base is small and theres only a few characters in each guild. The characters in the crusade are much older than the characters in any of the other guilds.
However dumb it is, the issues exist and therefore I feel they must be talked about. Especially if the whole MUD things that it is imbalanced. Bit your second paragraph I agree like the first of the north sun.
ganandorf wrote: Theres a few things I hate about the crusade.

Unicorns being the best mount in the game, and watchtowers so that they know where everyone is at every moment? Considering Unicorns can get them across the map in really under 2 minutes, Watchtowers are unnecessary. They're taking away from the game, incase that wasn't blatently obvious. Making it harder for anyone who is an enemy of or on bad terms with the crusade. Combined with the 2 minutes it takes unicorns to get anywhere in the map, and charging being basically a one hit kill, it's not fun.
Might be beside the point but charge was heavily nerfed. I could stand to lose watchtowers completely if people thought it was balanced. I don't want to lose unicorns though, I think it keeps things fair.
ganandorf wrote: I have an asralite character that's really young. Alot of the miracles are pretty cool, but they have no healing for their team members, which is pretty stupid. Their guild hall is also shit. Only one or two of the guards are actual asral clerics, when in fact, every single guard should be an asral cleric, wearing asral armours and using asral weapons and miracles. The fact that they already aren't is stupid, and shows how little thought was put into putting together their new keep.
Their strategy is to go back let someone else take the hits while they heal then go back north. Just because they can't heal eachother doesn't make them bad, it just calls for a different strategy. Their guild hall is pretty bad, but so is the Sathonite Guild. So is the Ranger guild.

The only guilds that are difficult to raid are the Taniel Clerics, sort of the Crusaders (although I still don't think it's that bad), The Order and The Shaolin.

Asral Guards should be Asral clerics, or at least -one of them-. From what I understand their keep was put together hastily.
ganandorf wrote: Edit: Also I didnt comment on it, but the crusader ability that makes us scatter is really annoying. It turns what would be a pretty fair and fun fight, into a bunch of sathonites running all over the place. What's worse is that it seems like its effective almost all the time. I think removing it would be a kick in the ass for crusaders (they may think, finally we found a really good way to screw with the sathonites and now theyre getting rid of it).
I agree it would be a kick in the ass. The one ace in the hole we have when we can't use our unicorns (quite a bit of the MUD we can't enter with Unicorns, another balance I think is good) would be gone. That would suck. Considering it isn't entirely reliable unless you have max karma and max righteousness.
ganandorf wrote:
luminier wrote:Oh and btw whether it works or not, it's WEAKER if we try it again. Oh ya we are so broken.
That came of really condescending and deuchebaggy. Considering you started the discussion and you want it to be a good one, that's a pretty stupid thing to do.
Ya it was douchebaggy. That was the intent. I do want the discussion to be good but I thought I had already explained how the ability works. Oh well. Im Sorry for that.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

isengoo
Champion
Posts: 828
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:38 pm

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#14 Post by isengoo » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:59 pm

Hey, let's not throw ad hominems around. Keep it civil.

ferranifer
Champion
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:16 am
Location: Europe CET

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#15 Post by ferranifer » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:04 pm

Ermm, the devote bonus is exactly the same that you get when pouring blessed water over weapons. And yes, it is indeed restricted to Templars or above, now I see what you were meaning. The other half of the non officer ranks get hallow, which does a different thing. I keep talking about hallow because well, everyone else gets devote. I thought it was a no brainer. Anyways, with devote sathos get to be able to hit undead beings... I think you'd see the irony here yourself. The unique snowflake thing the sathos have is hallow and thats why I was talking about it. In fact, when talking about balance, most of the sathos wont even have either devote or hallow. All in all, it's hardly something that makes a difference such as to turn sathos into melee beasts anyways. I do hope they get more use now than they used to, because, to my disarray, they were both considered largely useless and not really worth the favour.

The satho armours might be light weight but the protection they offer cannot be compared. Really. Your argument is akin to calling leather armor awesome because it's light weight. Yes, it doesnt encumber as much, but it also pales in comparison with the armour of all of taniels, asrals and crusaders. Feel free to post an armourstats of Luminier with full blessings and without them. The last time I saw one I couldnt believe my eyes, granted this was on Korsario's character, and a very long time ago so maybe things have changed or he had something special going on him. But if it's still like that, then I do believe that Crusader gear is quite over the top strong even before taking into account Taniel Cleric buffs.

Im not fully familiar with how the crusader abilities work. I do not have a crusader character, neither any specific knowledge about their special powers. My comment about the aoe fear comes directly from talking with players in game.

About watchtowers, when I asked people in game why they didnt simply chop them down, their answer was that it was too dangerous and took way too long to do so and that they were put up again way too easily, so it wasnt really worth the risk at all. Is that so? You cannot really compare them with revenants either because you can place watchtowers in the 3 important chokepoints of the game with total impunity, but revenants wouldnt last long in those spots before players would bring them down. (Plus revenants on the main roads are just a big no no because of newbie presence) Yes, this is not your fault but it still limits the usefulness of revenants and makes them pale when compared with the tactical power of watchtowers. How to address this issue? Bring the skulls back. Or remove watchtowers. Or even better, adjust them so they are a valid target so both sides have something to do about them. Besides all this, what about Asrals, or thieves, or darkelves that are not satho priests, or anyone else that you have as enemies? They got nothing that compares with the towers.

Unicorns... well... would you be ok if the Sathos got Nightmares as mounts with exactly the same stats and attributes (and limitations and requirements) as the unicorns? (Or the Asrals, or the Thieves, or the Order, or whoever you're gonna fight next)

EDIT: mentioned other factions besides Sathos.
Last edited by ferranifer on Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#16 Post by ganandorf » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:11 pm

Watchtowers don't take that long to chop down with two people, and its dangerous because one bolt does alot of damage. I also know that they also take a long time to put up. The difference is, when putting them up, bad guys aren't alerted to your position.

No it would not be okay if sathos got nightmares. You forget that sathos aren't the only enemies that crusaders have. If the crusaders and sathos keep getting pumped up, and all the other guilds stay the same, then it's really going to turn into a cold war between the crusaders and the sathos, with all the other guilds just standing around picking their asses.

I'm just going to say get rid of the stupid watchtowers. They make the game less fun for anyone who is an enemy of the crusade. Rangers, Shaolin, Asrals etc. don't have scouting that alerts them to their positions enemies, and really, neither should sathos or crusaders. Especially considering on their unicorn mounts crusaders can get across the map in under 5 minutes (I'd say a good crusader could do it in one minute).

I'll also add that changing anything is going to lead to complaints by the nerfed side. and then some other side is going to get stronger, leading to more complaints. It's really just something thats never going to end and never going to get better. So why bother?
Meow

Valtiel
Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:19 pm

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#17 Post by Valtiel » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:38 pm

I know for a fact that the current dreadmaster can kill Luminier 1v1. I'm sure even he'll attest to the this. Melee fights become brutal in a 1v1 fight when a crusader is on a unicorn, but that's because you can't really hit the crusader and it keeps resetting your target to the unicorn. Satho priests have the tools to kill crusaders. The problem is numbers right now. I do feel bad for human sathos though. Darkelf sathos have a pretty nice advantage with their dark sight. But anyone strong enough as a satho can deal with it.

If you're a satho character and want help on methods to kill crusaders you should definitely mail the dreadmaster or get in contact with him somehow. You might not always kill them. But they might have to run from you. And in geas that's really winning a fight anyways since rarely will you get a chance to block them into a one exit room.

Also, Sathos are amazing at melee fighting. What do you think blood, fire armour and darkness are for? The Dreadmaster fights almost solely with weapons as opposed to miracles except when he has to, those slippery crusaders run when he casts anyways.


And no, his name isn't Valtiel. This is a different character. ;)

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#18 Post by ganandorf » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:40 pm

Well yeah of course the current dreadmaster can kill luminier.

It's not that difficult to kill luminier, the trick is, you need a character that is older and has higher skills and stats than him.
Meow

dragan
Journeyman
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:54 pm

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#19 Post by dragan » Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:37 am

ferranifer wrote: The satho armours might be light weight but the protection they offer cannot be compared. Really. Your argument is akin to calling leather armor awesome because it's light weight. Yes, it doesnt encumber as much, but it also pales in comparison with the armour of all of taniels, asrals and crusaders.
Though I agree with most of Ferra, I need to point out that the Asral amours actually are the worst of all. The fact that the chainmail has the coif attached makes it useless. Wearing the chainmail causes my char to knock itself out permanently on headbutts. Also the weak head protection kinda is an open invitation to deadly headcrits.

The Satho armours are actually not crap. They are light and strong. In fact you get full deflect with those armours and that is quite amazing - even if the armourstats may be a lot lower than the Crusader armours, the Satho armours are still far beyond the Asral armours. Trust me, my Asral char would gladly exchange the chainmail vs. the bone armours. :)

User avatar
Kaseo
Journeyman
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:32 pm
Location: USA

Re: Guilds, Balance, Roleplay.

#20 Post by Kaseo » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:50 am

I know how to solve the balance issue. Make Shaos able to punch through helmets and break skulls with their bare hands. :D
(This is obviously a joke. I actually love Shaolin how it is.)

But seriously, I don't think there's a balance issue so much with guilds. Maybe one or two could be improved, but not so much a huge difference. Everyone's saying Crusaders are completely over powered, but I'm not so sure I see it. Yes, they are pretty awesome. And according to a few, we might be better without the watchtowers. Honestly, though, if Luminier wasn't a Crusader I don't think anyone would be saying this.

(I'm kinda [lol] lazy, so I'm not going to pick through each post to find what I'm looking for)
Someone mentioned it being Crusader roleplay that they have to kill anyone not with them. This is not so. If anything, it's Luminier's roleplay, but even that not so much. Like poLuminier said, try talking and see what happens. I've seen it, I've done it. It works better than violence, as proven by this "war." According to what I've read, I'm sure my character should've been put on the cross countless times by Luminier. But (GASP!) talking to Luminier prevented this.

As far as I know, when I first started playing and up until more recently, there were no complaints about Crusaders being overpowered. And also as far as I know, the only thing that's really changed to affect this opinion is Luminier. I'm not saying Luminier is a problem, don't get me wrong. I think he's just played more consistently than most, if not all other active characters, thus making his stats go up more consistently. How can we solve this? ROLEPLAY. Try talking, as stated above. IT WORKS. You can't expect a whole MUD to change just because one person is more consistent than others.

If you replace Luminier with, say, Kaseo as leader of the Crusade. All stats the same, replace light armour skill for medium(?) or whatever Crusaders use, then replace unarmed with sword or other Crusader weapon. I can just about guarantee nobody would be saying this in this situation. The reason? I'M LAZY. Even if I played twice as much as poLuminier, Kaseo's stats wouldn't be up to his.
Or, say, Luminier was a Sathonite with the same stats and whatnot as Luminier the Crusader. Guarantee people would be saying the same thing about them (the Sathonites).

I'm sure there's at least one or two older characters who don't play anymore that could probably make Luminier look like a child in a 1v1 fight. Even if said character was guildless without ANY kind of guild benefit.

Now I've gone over why Crusade is so powerful, I'm sure there's some that'll say "maybe Luminier should change his roleplay." No. I personally love Luminier's roleplay. It's straightforward. He has a goal, a reason. People think he's a bully because he reacts to what they do, and sometime those reactions make him seem as such. Perhaps to an extent he is, but not NEARLY to what everyone claims. The "I'm going to run away and act suspicious every time Luminier's in the room" thing is what makes Luminier chase after/attack. As far as I know. If you stay and try talking you're less likely to get attacked. Unless, of course, you go around killing/eating innocents for no apparent reason. That might get you attacked anyway.

So overall, the solution? Think about what you do. If you REALLY think Luminier is a problem, get a group together to face him, as he said. With the amount of complaining I've seen, it shouldn't be all that hard. Otherwise, talking can actually solve a lot of issues. Even this "war," if the Asral guild (or at least one or few who he's after) try talking to Luminier or even convince other Crusaders that the war should end, it just might. You never know until you try.
"Luminier says deeply and quietly in Common: Enough with the
pleasantries
Luminier gives you a rough man hug."

Post Reply