Recognizing good/bad RP

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Yngwe
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Recognizing good/bad RP

#1 Post by Yngwe » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:03 pm

Some time back, I was in a team who was attacked. The attacker did not speak, but just slayed the team, set fire to our stuff, and set obstacles in the way for us to have to fight through to get back to whatever of our stuff hadn't been toasted. I was more unhappy than usual about the death my character suffered because the RP seemed to be non-existant and some of the stuff the attacker did and said after the team died just seemed to be an attempt to rub our noses in our loss.

When I think back though, among the choices the attacker had as a character in response to what we were doing as a team, attacking and killing us was certainly within legitimate potential responses. When I thought about it after my selfish indignation slunk back into the bog of discouragement, I had to admit that punishing us was not bad RP just because I didn't appreciate his mannerisms - in other words, he was not acting outside the boundaries of RP necessarily, even tho he could have been less of a turkey about it.

For sake of context, what we were doing in that team was well within the roles and duties of our various guilds, and it was legitimately an offense from the perspective of the attacker and his guild. Recent discussions on another thread has prompted a question in my head.

Here's my question: How do YOU measure the boundaries of RP? When do you start thinking that someone has broken RP rules? How do you control your own emotional responses and stay within the boundaries of the personality of your character - especially if your char is significantly different than you are in real life?

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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#2 Post by glorfindel » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:28 pm

Hi,

Well that's one of the most difficult question that is there in Roleplaying games, esp. Muds. When is something too much, crossing the borders? When do people actually 'break' RP ? For me there are a few boundaries that I consider really breaking:

- Doing something just because it's possible or eases your playing very much up (e. g. it'd be easier for yourself to get killed to get rid of a particularily annoying thing then live it out, or easier to hack an arm off to remove a branding, your god will restore your arm anyway). These things are stuff that's easy for YOU, but believe me, I don't think you'd hack your arm off even if you knew it'd grow back by magic or devine intervention.
- Overdone 'Capture RP'. I'm glad not to have witnessed that in a long while, but I've seen enough and heard enough tales from the game to know this happens at times. Sometimes you get the impression people get really into this and I think no matter how you justify it, there's the line and you don't step over it.
- Well the obvious: use of OOC information (one of my chars could be a thief, the other a crusader... so it's challenge to NOT presecute or look closely on the people you know are thieves with your crusader, because, well, he wouldn't normally care for them).
- Using OOC game mechanics as a justification for _anything_. For example, something that tips me off very often is that people are like 'there's only one halfling in Arborea, the one I'm hunting just went there, there are only two halflings on the who list, there's only one halfling that just came out... it must be him. There are (in my way of seeing things) a lot more geas population then we see with the naked eye. A city is meant to be swarming with people ... etc. Another thing is sending people tells even though your char can't know they're awake. I think sending 'I'm sorry if I just woke you up, I have a rather urgent matter' is sort of borderline.
- As for combat/pvp, I think here the boundaries are hard to see. I know if somebody just jumps out of the dark to backstab me, just because I happened to be there, then it's on the borderline. Well, if I never have met the person before, that is.
- Demanding impossible stuff for treaties. I've not seen that in quite a while gladly, but we had times when there was demand for, e. g. the taniel clergy to move out of elvandar for a temporary truce. It's not really breaking the rules here, but it's a lot of bending in my eyes. If you are going to offer a truce/treaty to a guild, take into account what's actually possible for them to achieve without asking for five wizards coding a month. I don't mind the stakes to be high, I just mind them not being fulfillable without wiz involvement and/or breaking the guilds purpose completely. But then, as always, context.
- People helping each other who would never had if their chars would be real people. I've seen a lot of it a few years back, I'm glad to see it not as much anymore. You can think of enough examples to that, I guess.
- Insults of a certain degree. I've heard stuff thrown around IC that is, with all respect to everybody, not OK. I mean, you can swear all the way but there are things that your char should never call another.
- People breaking their lines / abandoning everything while still in guild just to get against one char who they oocly hate. Sure you can justify it -somehow- with RP, but really, no go.

I think summing up, for me, apart of the obvious, it's mostly hard to say if somebody broke RP or not (apart of the above). It's always a cautious thing to watch or open, if unsure I'd usually ask those people oocly, if they can shed some light on their motives, if they'd not show enough hints IC.

Just my point of view :)

poGlorfindel

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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#3 Post by Orodreth » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:59 am

I think bad RP is doing things for no reason, or having a reason and not showing it (usually just an excuse to do it for no reason). If you hunt and kill someone, you should have a little dialogue with them. You don't have to flat out say "I killed you because X Y and Z" but I guess it's ok.. even if it's very boring and uninteresting RP. Have some fun with it! Make it fun for the enemy!

This is a lot easier for friends doing things together, since it just comes naturally.

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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#4 Post by Delia » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:59 am

or having a reason and not showing it
I have to say I very much disagree with this. I dislike the idea of 'playing out scenes' just for the sake of doing so - I think this is something that come out naturally rather than being "forced".

Sometimes people start playing out some detailed character histories involving deep regrets and dark secrets and you are like, "hey, dude, we just met! Why are you telling me this?" Well of course there could be valid reasons but over the years I have had several of these moments.

The point is - If YOU do not see a reason behind an action or somesuch, it does not mean there is not one. The reasons should not be spelled out for you in every instance.
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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#5 Post by glorfindel » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:58 pm

Delia wrote:
Sometimes people start playing out some detailed character histories involving deep regrets and dark secrets and you are like, "hey, dude, we just met! Why are you telling me this?" Well of course there could be valid reasons but over the years I have had several of these moments.

The point is - If YOU do not see a reason behind an action or somesuch, it does not mean there is not one. The reasons should not be spelled out for you in every instance.
I Agree with Delia here. I think some things should remain hidden and some things should not be revealed at all. I think am guilty of being too out of the door sometimes, yet I think the ideal is to not explain every action. In my original comment I rather refered for people not having _any_ reason for things, which is a lot different then not showing one.

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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#6 Post by Orodreth » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:31 pm

I should rephrase that doing something without saying why is usually just an excuse to do it anyways, in my experience. If there is a reason, the other person should be able to find out one way or another, which doesn't have to be told to them directly. But it's no fun to just have things happen to you and have no idea why, especially if you haven't done anything (or at least you think you haven't) that would provoke the action.

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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#7 Post by Delia » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:49 am

I've come to the conclusion that playing MUDs and RP is about patience. Quite lot of it can be required! The +1 mentality that games generate does not help much with this and I think it could prove helpful for one to ponder what happens inside the human brain when that +1 is served. I think it can be one hell of a ride that can get you hooked in ways you cannot begin to fathom. Am I making any sense here? I'm writing with my cell so sorry for the short post about a complicated topic.
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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#8 Post by Zehren » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:50 am

Delia wrote: Am I making any sense here? I'm writing with my cell so sorry for the short post about a complicated topic.
Yes.

From having played a thief, I find it very annoying that people seem to value their items more than their lives...
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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#9 Post by dragan » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:36 pm

Zehren wrote:
Delia wrote: Am I making any sense here? I'm writing with my cell so sorry for the short post about a complicated topic.
Yes.

From having played a thief, I find it very annoying that people seem to value their items more than their lives...
From not having played a thief I find it rather that people value their items more than the thieves life ... and it somehow even makes sense. :)

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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#10 Post by Zehren » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:24 pm

dragan wrote:From not having played a thief I find it rather that people value their items more than the thieves life ... and it somehow even makes sense. :)
Yes, this makes sense.
The problem as I stated it was someone valuing their own items above their own life. Gonna take this roll of toilet paper with me to the AFTERLIFE. UNGH. UG-UG.
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Yngwe
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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#11 Post by Yngwe » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:27 pm

This is part of what I mean...
To a halfling thief, someone unwilling to part with something that would cost their life to keep seems improbable RP-wise.
But to the one who struggled to earn the thing or who values it enough to defend against it, it might be worth risking personal safety to protect it.
I mean... if I find a burglar in my house, I'm not just going to say, "Oh hey, I'll leave you alone here until you're done sifting through all my belongings."
Dood's gonna find out what I can do with a baseball bat.

The RP isn't violated by the thief or by the one desiring to keep ownership of what I can assure you is worth to him more than a roll of toilet paper. :P

Or am I mistooken?

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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#12 Post by luminier » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:28 pm

I remember a time back when there was the Crusader/Asral war and it was basically Matusalem and Luminier against all of the Asralite Clerics. The war started because the Asralites had allowed an ex member of the Crusaders to become Avatar. This was unacceptable to the Crusaders.

The Asralites managed to raid the Crusaders once maybe twice I think (while no Crusaders were awake to defend it), but only after their guild had been essentially walked over by Luminier many times, many of their members killed such that I was essentially almost killing them once every 24 hours, and their Guild was so open to attack because Luminier had stripped the guards down to their skivvies and bound them all up.

I went to this extreme when I told them what my terms were and killing the offender didn't work. So I killed the offenders supports. The I attacked the whole guild. Then I stole the orb. Then I stole the books. Then I started killing more supporters and the offender with harsher punishments like limb removal and other things. Then I started to kidnap guards.

I know Asral is a god that love to fight in glorious battles. But when is it enough that you are getting your ass beaten day after day and Asral still expects you to fight? Personally, I don't think so. Asral RP dictates that a glorious battle is good, but if you lose, you should honor the other person should you not? Fighting again and again and losing again and again can't be pleasing to Asral... Why make the game annoying for everyone by being so obstinate?

Granted, this is only my side of the story, I don't know what other Asralites thought of this "Never give up never surrender policy" but it seemed like a poor RP choice to me... no matter what your "character" is actually LIKE.

Perhaps my terms were too great? I expected that the Avatar pass the torch to someone else to be leader.

This comes back to another thing, why aren't enemies of guilds... ENEMIES OF THE GUILDS? The only place enemies actually mean something to the guild are the Rangers, Taniels, Crusaders and possibly Sathonites(usually if a Sathonite leaves they just stop playing though or join the goodies... natural enemy). But what if someone leaves the Crusaders or Tanielites... and joins the Asralites? or Shaolin? Who do you punish... Person or Guild? How far is too far? How much attacking is too much attacking? Should a persons character be ruined(essentially) because they left a guild? Some guilds can make enemy status VERY easy or a PAIN in the butt... I want to see a happy medium...

Thoughts on enemies..good/bad RP in this situation?

Thanks!
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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#13 Post by fernao » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:49 pm

Being one of those that suffered under the crusaders in the crusader/asral war, I can say that for small to medium chars a nearly daily kill can be close to driving you off. Almost did with me. Had a word with Luminier in the OOC area since I felt unjustly treated. My perceived mishandling by the crusaders got adressed and settled.

Sure, it was my choice to be as stubborn as I was, however, I'd say a kill every second day would have sufficed. There were some questionable actions, but I won't go in detail. The past is the past. What I want to add here is that though punishments, such as whipping or cutting off a limb are meant to be a way out, from the receiving end, especially as a cleric, I must say they hurt more than a death.
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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#14 Post by luminier » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:59 pm

Honestly I understand you pain, but if someone is causing you trouble in your guild who is a leader of your guild ... does this person really deserve the respect you gave them?

Punishments should be annoying and a substitute to death. No one said anything about them being easier or harsher.

You said it almost drove you off. If you were in my shoes what would you have done differently? Just cutting back to a death every two days for you wouldve been fine? I think the end problem is the same personally.
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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#15 Post by Zehren » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:25 pm

I can say that the less mechanics being used in any situation, the more enjoyable I will typically find an "encounter".

say and emote are my favourite commands ^^
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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#16 Post by Zehren » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:04 pm

I find it comical when clerics do something else while preaching - hold conversations on the side. I have seen this from many, and I believe this defeats the purpose. Preaching gives favour because of spreading faith... I doubt someone's charisma stays top-notch if you break off while talking to chatter with someone else.

"I have a dream! I Have a dream that... Yes, dear, pizza tonight... A dream that-" XD
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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#17 Post by Eleassa » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:32 pm

Speaking while preaching reminded me of something else that irks me. People doing things like juggling while playing a musical instrument. I can see singing while juggling, or such, but seriously... most if not all instruments need both hands to play them. I can MAYBE see bouncing your juggling balls off a drum to 'play' the drum while juggling, but that is a LOOOONNNNGGGG stretch of the imagination.

Another thing is when people initiate RP, then leave before I can finish typing out an emote. Not everyone uses short 'says' to RP.
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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#18 Post by Zehren » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:34 am

You say: Hello!
Someone says: Hi.
Someone nods to you.
Someone leaves west.
You say: Dafuq?

POWER LEAVING. I WAS GONNA STAB YOU IN THE GUT.
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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#19 Post by Eluriel » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:43 am

It does kind of strike me odd when people carry on conversations as they're preaching. I generally try to avoid talking/doing actions when I'm singing/playing an instrument too, cause it seems like it would be rather difficult to do both at once. I hope no one thinks me rude, and will kindly wait until I'm finished. :)

One thing I kind of struggle with though is how to politely leave... Like I'm waiting to see if the other person is going to say/do anything, and they're likely doing the exact same thing as me... and I don't want to just say, "Well, nothing's happening, so bye!" I really ought to be a bit more proactive in my rp rather than reactive, cause I do seem to have the most fun rping with people who take initiative.

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Re: Recognizing good/bad RP

#20 Post by Delia » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:31 am

POWER LEAVING.
How is this weird? Have you not ever encountered this RL?
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

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