Roleplay: Thieves and items

[Blizt]

[EDIT: Split from previous topic by Per.]

Thieves and items......

Since I have played this MUD, almost every thief I have encountered has stolen items that are valuable and hard to replace. The thieves have hardly ever given the chance to return the item either.

I don't consider this bad roleplay, I consider this annoying a player.
When you annoy them to this extent, you have to expect a certain outcome.
It pretty much frustrates the other players to a degree that you have to expect them to react like this.

It has constantly happened, and it keeps happening.

Off topic, but just letting you know why people care more about their items than lives, since it was mentioned.

[Zehren]

Thieves and items......

Since I have played this MUD, almost every thief I have encountered has stolen items that are valuable and hard to replace. The thieves have hardly ever given the chance to return the item either.

I don't consider this bad roleplay, I consider this annoying a player.
When you annoy them to this extent, you have to expect a certain outcome.
It pretty much frustrates the other players to a degree that you have to expect them to react like this.

It has constantly happened, and it keeps happening.

Off topic, but just letting you know why people care more about their items than lives, since it was mentioned.

We tried to offer everyone everything for sale back AND protection from any theft. Seeing as we were scorned, we had little choice elsehow. Your argument is very invalid in my/Orlane's case.

Of course, the prices we asked were morbidly high. We thought folks would try to negotiate. There is one case I can think of in which a special item was not offered back be me, and that was a red sword I found in a chest (I left a feather in the chest in the hope this would be connected with Wings, though). It's in a locker I can't access, since a wizard put up dwarven guards in the way who seem to specially target known/rumoured/ex-thieves. Even worse, said guards pick their noses constantly. Ranting.

This is part of what I mean...
To a halfling thief, someone unwilling to part with something that would cost their life to keep seems improbable RP-wise.
But to the one who struggled to earn the thing or who values it enough to defend against it, it might be worth risking personal safety to protect it.
I mean... if I find a burglar in my house, I'm not just going to say, "Oh hey, I'll leave you alone here until you're done sifting through all my belongings."
Dood's gonna find out what I can do with a baseball bat.

The RP isn't violated by the thief or by the one desiring to keep ownership of what I can assure you is worth to him more than a roll of toilet paper.

Or am I mistooken?

No. You murder the thief, and get sent to jail for eight years. Anways, as stated, I can entirely see folks willing to put up with some risk attempting to keep their items. What I find annoying is that many characters seem to value the items above their lives. It's the difference between putting up a fight to keep it and jumping into an ocean with it.

The entire thing lies in that character lives are infinite, as you can just ress ress ress, while special items are, you know, special. Nothing special with one of a thousand lives.



Either way, good RP is IC consistent, and without OOC-frolicking. If you enjoy losing, something is right.

[Olrane]

TL;DR: Thieves are as broken as Druids, but not because of coding or rules, but because the game's economy is dead.

It's really hard to care about theft roleplay when the economy of the game is so broken.

Currency doesn't have value. No one has reasonable upkeep costs, and no one struggles to earn enough. Items are the only things with value, and their value is so disproportionate to currency that an item theft is akin to (edit: far worse than) murder in almost every instance.

A broken economy makes thieves irrelevant. There's no reward for being rich, no reason to fear poverty or death. You can easily outstrip a thief's earning power through legitimate channels, which further undermines the IC sense of the risk.

When I was trying to get some momentum going with the thieves, I had a naive preconception that there could be a happy balance formed between the thieves and the rest of the MUD. What was desired was a level of interaction that was everpresent yet manageable, and which could only be achieved through trading of currency. By using a fluid medium without the sentimental attachment of items, we had a slight possibility of finding that balance.

Why did we fail? I'd like to say it was our lack of persistence. We did give up a bit soon. Yet I can't deny that the non-thieves played their major part in ignoring us; NOT because they thought it was right, exactly, but because ICly, at endgame level, items have value and currency doesn't. There is everything, EVERYTHING wrong with this, and until it is fixed, thieves don't mean anything. A theft is always monumental or forgettable, and neither is acceptable with the paradigm that we strove to attain.

I understand that this game is focussed more on religious/philosophical conflict than anything, but I thought I'd at least offer some insight as to what I've learned and why thieves as a fully realized faction and the MUD as it is now can't coexist.

[Blizt]

We tried to offer everyone everything for sale back AND protection from any theft. Seeing as we were scorned, we had little choice elsehow. Your argument is very invalid in my/Orlane's case.

Of course, the prices we asked were morbidly high. We thought folks would try to negotiate. There is one case I can think of in which a special item was not offered back be me, and that was a red sword I found in a chest (I left a feather in the chest in the hope this would be connected with Wings, though). It's in a locker I can't access, since a wizard put up dwarven guards in the way who seem to specially target known/rumoured/ex-thieves. Even worse, said guards pick their noses constantly. Ranting.



First of all, one of you two stole an important item and "misplaced" it. You tried to recompensate, but considering the history of the thieves that can't be ignored there is no telling what really happened to it. Second of all, in a meeting an offer was made to bribe the thieves so they wouldn't steal any more items and leave a guild alone. This was outright denied by the statement "No, we hope for many happy returns" meaning they continued to keep stealing, and offering things back for outrageous prices, when people already spent hours upon hours upon hours of their time just to earn the item, then they had to spend hours upon hours upon hours to regain it. That is not fun for anyone.

If you call my post invalid, I could call yours an outright lie.

As for the reason you failed, you were annoying and frustrating. When someone oppossed you, you murdered others who had no involvement in it, picked on the weak, then you QUIT when you couldn't handle the consequences.

[Zehren]

First of all, one of you two stole an important item and "misplaced" it. You tried to recompensate, but considering the history of the thieves that can't be ignored there is no telling what really happened to it. Second of all, in a meeting an offer was made to bribe the thieves so they wouldn't steal any more items and leave a guild alone. This was outright denied by the statement "No, we hope for many happy returns" meaning they continued to keep stealing, and offering things back for outrageous prices, when people already spent hours upon hours upon hours of their time just to earn the item, then they had to spend hours upon hours upon hours to regain it. That is not fun for anyone.

If you call my post invalid, I could call yours an outright lie.

As for the reason you failed, you were annoying and frustrating. When someone oppossed you, you murdered others who had no involvement in it, picked on the weak, then you QUIT when you couldn't handle the consequences.

I am not replying to this. If you feel a need to discuss it, calm down and send a PM.

[Skragna]

I'm going to point out one instance I know of.

Skragna once chased a pair of thieves all over Elvandar. The way out of the city was blocked by a /LOT/ of people, so they were more or less trapped in the city. At one point, I found one holding a knife to an elf woman's throat. Rather than risk her being attacked and killed, I left the room, and continued to hunt his friend. Later on, because of this, my axe, Brainseeker, was stolen. After begging money from friends and gathering what little I could from Skragna's scrimpings (he's not exactly a big earner, I take the vow of Crusader poverty quite seriously) I paid for it and then had to wait a while, IC, to get it back. Skragna was furious, but knew that attacking the thief would only lose him the axe he spent so much blood, sweat, limbs, and scales to earn.

[Zehren]

Skragna was furious, but knew that attacking the thief would only lose him the axe he spent so much blood, sweat, limbs, and scales to earn.

I loved Skragna's passive aggressiveness in that encounter. That one, and Skragna (and Kelawyth) bearing through my char's end-lilithe ramblings are two very fun incidents I can remember. (They didn't even include any mechanical PvP! (As both took place after the preliminary actions. Steal axe/purify mad halfling.))

[Skragna]

Truthfully, Skragna was only not attacking because of Brainseeker and because he gave his word not to do it immediately after getting it back... Otherwise he'd have pinned them to the wall with a spear.

[Olrane]

The problem, Blizt, is in entitlement to items and to not working to earn money ICly.

In my ideal game, everyone feels a need to generate an income. When everyone is attempting with seriousness to make money, they will see just how easy it is to make money.

Our prices were only outrageous if you refused to accept the basic premise that every character should have a profession and work at it on a consistent basis. The entire model that we strove to create was a persistent and annoying "tax collector" kind of relationship on an economy that presumably existed because there was income to "tax".

Instead, the attitude we got was this: how dare you make me keep working, even after I've achieved {item}? Once I achieve, I can retire and I should not be molested.

This attitude should not be encouraged, and part of the reason why we acted as we did was to hopefully change it. We did not get the desired result; instead, people argued that the game and its players should not be hostile to their invested time.

What is the difference between this and PK? That we put active pressure on people to roleplay making money, whereas a PK only asks that you passively recover while doing whatever else you do.

Player and faction interaction is about change and force, and just as a captured person ought not to spit in his captor's face, a theft victim should not simply argue entitlement. I don't mind that we were hunted, that was all fair and well. But that no one stepped up to make money to interact with us? That was actually the unforgivable thing.

I need to reiterate one final point: we did not want to steal items to grief players. Since almost no one carried change on them, we usually only had the opportunity to steal significant items. The dichotomy between invaluable and worthless is simply too large a gulf to make a playable compromise.

[luminier]

I think the problem is this based on what you've said Olrane. You can say that it's bad that people didn't come up with the money you asked to try to negotiate with you and I agree, it is.

However consider this situation. You steal from a Crusader. It is an item he wants back. You offer him a deal. He declines because he has no money and instead decides to attack and try to kill you. You escape. He does something else likes holds something dear to you and demands you return his item. He is either going to engage and kill you or fail and force an engagement to kill you. The bad part is if he kills you and the item isn't with you, you've lost a life and hes gotten nothing out of it (except minor PK satisfaction). The really bad part is if you steal something and he decides to crush the whole guild for it. I don't know where the "Bad" Rp begins and the "good" RP ends. Is it "bad" RP to over react, over analyze and act in a corrupted way? Depends on how your character is. Is it "good" RP to hide your actual black soul with good deeds? Is this not unlike real life? People could really have bad intentions but mask it with acts of charity.

Now consider this. You steal from someone who doesn't have the ability to kill you. They have no choice but to try and negotiate. This would be the common man who has little to no fighting skill against a thief with at least SOME fighting skill. Why try and attack him if you can't win? Cut a deal. Pay extra for protection from this happening again. Can't beat em? Join em. Negotiate that you are very poor. DO SOMETHING to initiate some RP. This in my opinion is where the situation is "easy" and "ideal".

A smart thief would cater to those who he cannot defeat and offer his services to a power stronger than him. A smart thief would steal from those he can easy overpower and threaten in a meaningful way. A smart thief wouldn't target someone in a guild because if you piss one person off generally they can get the backing of their guild easily. There in lies a problem. Most people aren't guildless.....

Something to think about.

[Zehren]

Most people are guildless.....

Fix'd. Most PCs are not, though XD

[luminier]

Yes, thank you but that is what i meant. While NPCs are generally guildless, most PCs have guilds that they can cry to. And you get all the fun RP from the PCs I think.

Not many PCs aren't tied to something they can't get help from... so thats a problem.

[Zehren]

Yes, thank you but that is what i meant. While NPCs are generally guildless, most PCs have guilds that they can cry to. And you get all the fun RP from the PCs I think.

Not many PCs aren't tied to something they can't get help from... so thats a problem.

Guilds could be kept out of many conflicts... You know, they tend be rather preoccupied with grand wars. Wasting resources on some thieves is just wasted XD

[luminier]

Ya but if you can spare the man power, why not pulverize?

If you look at it from the perspective of the person you are stealing from, what motive do they have to keep quiet about someone who stole something precious to them (unless it was embarrassing)? If Skragna had something stolen from him I would expect him to tell Luminier, and as Luminier I would definitely go out and seek this thief on Skragna's behalf. Now, I probably wouldn't attack the thieves guild as was done in the past, but I would certainly make life hard for the thief and generally people, thieves are people too you know, like easy lives.

People in guilds are used to having lots of things to do. What another thief on top of the pile of "To Kill"? Which goes back to my point... why not cater to those who are in power? As a thief why would you assist the losing team? You care about money, not politics, not strength, not killing (well some of you). You care about the money, and how you get that money. How do you get money? Keep being nice to your boss, it'll work out.

[Olrane]

The problem as I see it is in two things: people don't accept the basic premises that make an economic culture function (more on this in a bit), and people refuse to accept that the Thieves are a powerful force to be reckoned with, even if their will cannot be executed by current PC members.

On the economic culture:

A fundamental premise that is widely ignored in this game is the idea that Wealth is Power. In the game's current state, skills and to a lesser extent items are the only things which confer the ability to get others to do what you want. The second premise is that generally, people seek to become more powerful. This is not wholly ignored in game, but that wealth is not a significant function of it is seriously problematic.

What does this mean for the game and for roleplay?
-Social status and economic status need to be linked, and roleplayed as such.
-It needs to be considered alien, not commonplace, to live austerely by choice.
-People seek to improve their socioeconomic status and minimize damage to it. This means that people are open to opportunities to make money and actively seek it out. Taking bribes is not an easy no, for example.

On the presence of the Thieves in Forostar culture:

-Thieves are and always have been present, whether or not there are PCs to execute their will.
-As an organization, they are known to be powerful and are probably behind most crime as well as political machinations. They are among the Powers that Be.
-As an organization, they are widely rumoured to punish severely if they don't get their way.
-Generally, people hate and fear them but would rather cooperate than have terroristic actions* taken against them or those they love in response to failed cooperation.

The Thieves are the Mafia; they exist, they are powerful and wealthy, and you don't fuck them over if you can help it, because they will find you and make you pay.

This is NOT how they are treated, and this ruins the roleplay atmosphere. It is essential that they be approached with this roleplay backdrop to frame all of their actions; that they be known as a mass of faceless butchers who are kind enough to have some small mercy is essential to their ability to rule by terror.

They have money, which is power. They can kill you and all you love, which is power. They are everywhere and anywhere, whether or not there are PCs playing them. They are NOT usually actually able (as PCs) to strongarm wins in combat conflicts, which seems to be the only way people accept power on this MUD, and is frankly reprehensible in terms of roleplay.

As soon as the MUD is willing to accept their presence and fear them, then the thieves will have a place in the game.

*The Esmerelda case was a situation where we had a golden opportunity to reinforce this aspect in a beautifully memorable and exciting story. I'm a bit disappointed that people didn't understand that this was what we were trying to do, and that we were not being cruel or unfair.

It was honestly unfair to us to cry OOC foul on this when it was part of our central IC narrative.

[Skragna]

I would have understood if you'd kidnapped her and made that clear, or possibly robbed her blind, but you killed her, and that is a pretty clear-cut, to me at least, violation of a fair play rule stating not to take your anger out on someone's weak buddies.

[Olrane]

I would have understood if you'd kidnapped her and made that clear, or possibly robbed her blind, but you killed her, and that is a pretty clear-cut, to me at least, violation of a fair play rule stating not to take your anger out on someone's weak buddies.

This isn't a permadeath MUD. That's a weak rule and I think we had every good reason to break it.

That's to say, it wasn't OOC anger venting. It was a pre-meditated act of deliberate terrorism.

For evil to be credible, sometimes it has to be uncomfortable. We didn't and don't like upsetting people OOCly.

[Zehren]

Ya but if you can spare the man power, why not pulverize?

If you look at it from the perspective of the person you are stealing from, what motive do they have to keep quiet about someone who stole something precious to them (unless it was embarrassing)? If Skragna had something stolen from him I would expect him to tell Luminier, and as Luminier I would definitely go out and seek this thief on Skragna's behalf. Now, I probably wouldn't attack the thieves guild as was done in the past, but I would certainly make life hard for the thief and generally people, thieves are people too you know, like easy lives.

People in guilds are used to having lots of things to do. What another thief on top of the pile of "To Kill"? Which goes back to my point... why not cater to those who are in power? As a thief why would you assist the losing team? You care about money, not politics, not strength, not killing (well some of you). You care about the money, and how you get that money. How do you get money? Keep being nice to your boss, it'll work out.

Actually, my thief character cared about politics and good things. I always envisioned her as a Robina Hood without any manners or charm. She, of course, envisioned herself a saint. So she didn't care about money in any easy-life, greedypants way. The crusade never "caught" her, either - the only time I remember things going awry in a catastrophical way was when an extorted treaty didn't function as desired, and when she intended to mock around a monk, when instead aid appeared and the other PC was quick to attack and didn't stun (not stunning is fine - 'twas funny because the character after beheading her said "I didn't mean to kill!" XD)

She had no part in planning Esme's murder and was very annoyed by it afterwards (I myself knew, though, as we discussed whether 'twas fair reaction or not.). I think the only one who got to see the annoyed part was Teek, though, by a temporary lapse from her usual upbeat manners. Also direct orders of not repeating any such initiative again. XD

I would have understood if you'd kidnapped her and made that clear, or possibly robbed her blind, but you killed her, and that is a pretty clear-cut, to me at least, violation of a fair play rule stating not to take your anger out on someone's weak buddies.

The thing is, Tanriel was given verbal warnings. Not once, but twice, if I remember correctly. One of those times warned, he immediately made a scorning post in Elvandar which went along the lines of "now they threaten me". How many warnings do you give when the warnings you do give are laughed at?

EDIT: My thief character being hunted down all-out made very much sense after she declared herself Wings. It made less sense before the Shade Traders were announced, AKA individual thief, etc.

EDIT II: I am somewhat annoyed by perfectly mundane abilities such as backstab being talked of as "having the ability to backstab". This is a very obvious influx from the game skills, which are OOC measurements.

[luminier]

I've always wondered that. If you jump out from the shadows and gore someone in the face/back/wherever, why is that more honorable than jumping out from the shadows and "backstabbing" someone in the face/back/wherever. To be honest I am not sure I entirely agree that such techniques should be "looked down upon" by the general population... Unless ALL attacks made from hiding are looked down upon...


In terms of some of the things Olrane mentioned, I think gold and money should play a bigger role in this game. Perhaps you have some ideas in how to "make it so"? Right now as far as I know, there Crusaders are the only guild with a vault that they actually have to perform SOME kind of upkeep on, and I roleplay that. Im always on peoples asses to get a job or scalp to help keep the vault full to "pay for our efforts". RIGHTEOUSNESS AIN'T FREE PEOPLE!!! XD

Wealth is Power as you said Olrane, but power is power too at least back in the day. Today if you are rich, you can just pay off pretty much anything if something bad happens. Back in medieval times you could also do that but back then people could also just get up a band of people and murder you too (not generally seen nowaways, but still seen... just with "nicer words" attached to it - See Iraq War).

So wealth right now, is not respected but strength of arm is. I hope with what you suggest or may have some ideas for would make this great discrepancy start to disappear.

[Delia]

For what it is worth, the Shao-lin have an upkeep to pay.