Roleplay: Thieves and items

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glorfindel
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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#21 Post by glorfindel » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:08 pm

Regarding this thief issues from back, I think it was a start, but having played a thief myself (in a time when I didn't feel like playing Glorfindel), I think you have been too obvious, too forthcomming and too rushed.

The thieves guild would not explain, it would only leave messages, demands and not bend to anything. But it'd always stay hidden, no matter what. No books, no posts, no nothing. Maybe a letter written to a single person, but even that's danger not worth taking. The shadows are your tool.

Plus, I think sometimes it's better to steal less and focus on certain groups. If you wish to make an example, you take patience. A lot of patience. I'm sorry, but the whole elvandar esme thing was just a bad idea. If I would have chosen it, I would've waited for her to be alone somewhere (she's been known to visit certain places alone, you just need to collect information and then strike). I wouldn't have done the warning to tanriel either as a thief... but that's just my 2cc.

As for people clinging on to their items... I think it depends on the person you steal from.
They will not all gladly negotiate to get their items back. Some others will gladly negotiate, it depends on the person. If you steal for example from Luminier or Phelan, I think you can be fairly certain that the responsive is massive death. If you steal from others.

One thing I have to recommend to all players though, if you see something that oocly explains a thief, do not always take it icly for granted. Your chars haven't got that information. I tried to soften things with glorfindel sometimes regarding that reason in elvandar, but it didn't find much love by people. Not that I blame people, it's an observation.

Yngwe
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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#22 Post by Yngwe » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:21 pm

A couple of things mentioned so far in this thread raise an interesting point.
For me, the game is a LOT easier to play and significantly less stressful if I roleplay in light of how things are rather than how they should be.

When Phelan killed demons, there could have been a lot of very cool RP all around that event - did he have a reason? What about the Evrenites who were right there? Who knows? It was never allowed to develop among cries of 'bad RP' - perhaps it is an example of the opposite of what I'm talking about.
Even tho the economy doesn't permit what was attempted by the current generation of thieves, it was a great attempt - and there are still things that could be done with it yet. I mean... I remember Yngwe thinking - dang man, we gonna get sucked into war with these hard-to-see backstabbers? How do I find balance with thieves demanding blackmail coin?!??! lol
*cough*
Anyway... Arborea changing to a religious freedom dynamic... very cool opportunity for lots of RP (as we've seen). I know some people think it doesn't work RPly, but really it can and is, depending on how it is RP'd.
And Elvandar changing the way it has both civilly and in the Taniel religion. There's TONS of untapped fun all wrapped up in that stuff (and some already that's been tapped).

I agree with several: It can be difficult to determine 'bad' RP, especially if I don't see the point of what is happening. And sometimes what you might think of as 'good' RP when you do it can be completely misunderstood and misinterpreted by other people as 'bad' RP.

I think rolling with RP even when it pisses me off or if I don't see how it could work, is the best way to enjoy the thing. I know sometimes there is broken RP, but I really do think it happens far less than the accusations sometimes make it seem like. I think the 'patience' theme lately is an important part of it all.

Anybody think there's a way to standardize a measurement for 'good' and 'bad' RP more specific than the general 'it's how you would be if you were that character with that personality' definition?

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#23 Post by Olrane » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:50 pm

To a good extent, I agree with you Glorfindel.

We were obvious, forthcoming, and rushed. Much of that was entirely intentional on our part; I at least was tired of the idea of being passive, and I thought it would be a fresh change. On the other hand, the rushedness comes down to some other affairs - it was a time of upheaval and change, and we were pressured to act. I don't think we did it optimally, but things go as they do, not always as they're planned.

Our generation had a loose OOC motto that we would act as thieves and as a guild instead of just being passive players who benefited from the skills, tools, and connections of the guild. This required that we initiate player versus player conflicts, and we desired them on a regular basis. We were, after all, supposed to appear as a large number of unrecognizable and probably different people, not just 2 agents. That was something that unfortunately did not translate to many of our victims. We were trying to make up in frequency for our low PC population so as to appear more populated.

As for the Esme thing, I keep hearing that it was handled incorrectly. I suppose that's really easy to say. I'm not an expert, just a guy. What actually happened was this:

-People ignored us OR underestimated us probably BECAUSE we were "just two weak halflings" and not a ubiquitous guild of terror
-Tanriel made himself out to be a champion against us and consistently reported our movements on the Elvandar board, making him the "face" of the previous point
-Tanriel was given multiple warnings and continued to act out
-Esme was found sitting without her friends in the Elvandar marketplace and was swiftly killed without seeing the attacker
-A disguised halfling mentions to the crowd (and to Esme's ghost, if you think they have a right to hear things) that the organization was displeased
-The halfling vanishes and is chased unsuccessfully around the city from midnight until after sunup.

The only thing I guess that could be construed as "unsuccessful" about the operation was the fact that Tanriel and Esme got so sentimental and offended that they discredited the reasonableness of the action. We were made out to be OOC jerks and/or cheaters, and the whole thing got people to OOCly witch hunt against us. Because of this, no one even pretended that disguise was relevant, and it became "Teek did it" instead of a wrathful organization.

I don't think it's fair to say we picked the wrong targets, because Tanriel was the one who most egregiously tried to champion against us and out us.

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#24 Post by Zehren » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:42 pm

Yngwe wrote: Even tho the economy doesn't permit what was attempted by the current generation of thieves, it was a great attempt - and there are still things that could be done with it yet. I mean... I remember Yngwe thinking - dang man, we gonna get sucked into war with these hard-to-see backstabbers? How do I find balance with thieves demanding blackmail coin?!??! lol
*cough*
By negotiating with a thief and making her an enemy of the Shaolin at the same time XD
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ghalt
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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#25 Post by ghalt » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:12 pm

Luminier wrote:I've always wondered that. If you jump out from the shadows and gore someone in the face/back/wherever, why is that more honorable than jumping out from the shadows and "backstabbing" someone in the face/back/wherever. To be honest I am not sure I entirely agree that such techniques should be "looked down upon" by the general population... Unless ALL attacks made from hiding are looked down upon...
This kind of annoys me too: it breaks my suspension of disbelief to read that a combat verb is illegal. Some law even defines it as death from the shadows by a pointy object, which exactly describes what Ghalt does, as arrows are nothing if not pointy.

(Like you said, I could see a law against all hidden attacks; or even elvandar not realizing that volleys of arrows from the shadows are ethically pretty similar to backstabbing, because if rangers do it it must be okay. Calling out specifically the verb kind of makes my head hurt.)
Yngwe wrote: Anybody think there's a way to standardize a measurement for 'good' and 'bad' RP more specific than the general 'it's how you would be if you were that character with that personality' definition?
I would argue that the more interesting or entertaining roleplay is the better, but that's certainly subjective.

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#26 Post by Orodreth » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:18 pm

I don't want to de-rail, but golly am I glad that I've never had to deal with the thieves.

Blizt
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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#27 Post by Blizt » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:08 am

Do not say that the items stolen were returned, or protection from the thieves were offered. In my interaction with the thieves (most current) the item was "lost" and when the leader of a guild asked "what can be done to prevent this from happening again" the answer to the question was "Nothing, we hope for many happy returns"

So, an item was stolen from a guild and is possibly floating around the MUD in the hands of someone yet undetermined, and when the conversation took place asking if anything can be done to prevent it again, it was quickly implied that the thieves will just keep stealing items.

You can say that the intention was not to cause grief, but if you are not extremely careful, that is exactly what you do.

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#28 Post by Zehren » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:32 am

Blizt wrote:Do not say that the items stolen were returned, or protection from the thieves were offered. In my interaction with the thieves (most current) the item was "lost" and when the leader of a guild asked "what can be done to prevent this from happening again" the answer to the question was "Nothing, we hope for many happy returns"

So, an item was stolen from a guild and is possibly floating around the MUD in the hands of someone yet undetermined, and when the conversation took place asking if anything can be done to prevent it again, it was quickly implied that the thieves will just keep stealing items.

You can say that the intention was not to cause grief, but if you are not extremely careful, that is exactly what you do.
How recent was this? If this occured after the creation of this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1782
Then I (and Orlane?) had nothing to do with it. "The thieves" is a bit vague - there were other thieves around at the same time as the Shade Traders, over which we held no control (and which my thief character did not really "associate" with.) My thief character was several times blamed for the crimes these other thieves commited XD

Seeing as few others who have played thieves actually discuss such issues, I and Olrane are very much more open, and have tried to point out what we felt went wrong with our attempt - which both started and ended last year.
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Blizt
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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#29 Post by Blizt » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:38 am

It was during the time of you and "PO Olrane". He made an ooc apology for losing the item (and if it is still floating around the MUD, that causes problems for the guild that it belongs to, and draws them into conflict trying to recover it, which also has certain implications and consequences for the guild that it was taken from, that do not need to be mentioned on a public forum ) as well as it was one of you that made the statement I mentioned above. If it wasn't you, then maybe you can figure out who it was.

So stop saying that it was not one of you that did this, because it was. If you want a log of the incident posted here for everyone to see, I am sure I can find it.

Also mentioned in that log is a statement that will contradict what you say about not having any control over other thieves.

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#30 Post by Olrane » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:47 am

There doesn't need to be a log.

For one thing, I have always been OOCly open and honest about any controversial dealings, and I think that anyone who's dealt with me in the past can back me up. Playing a thief doesn't make me inherently a liar OOCly.

The situation with Akulli's bow is exactly as I described it. What transpired was that I offered to sell it back, took it to the bottom of the hobgoblin cave and hid it. I arranged for her to meet me outside, sold the knowledge that it was at the bottom of the cave to her for 30 gold coins, and left.

Now, the prevailing conclusion that we made is that the bow was too well hidden to be found or there was a mistake made, and that it got swept in the reboot. There were both IC and OOC apologies made, and I thought it was a done deal.

If there is any more unfair paranoia and finger pointing, go ahead and make yourself look ridiculous, Blizt. The bow is not "floating around". It wasn't sold to the highest bidder (I've always had a policy of not selling guild items to outsiders, even items belonging to other guilds to their own outsiders).

The bow is gone. Destroyed. It's not even a weird thing to happen. People lose items to sweeps and reboots all the time.

Let it be publicly known that no story other than this is true.

Edit: Presumably the bow was not unique and could have been replaced in the guild shop? We gave some amount of money help afford a new one (although even if we didn't fully pay for it, that would not have been unintentional). We hoped to shake the entitlement paradigm and make people fear to lose their stuff so that they'd buy some protection. Basic extortion, really.
Last edited by Olrane on Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#31 Post by Blizt » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:55 am

Well, I am glad you are so positive no one else ever picked it up, and it was destroyed.

Also, the log I mentioned was the one were you stated you hoped for many happy returns, when the question was asked if there was anything that could be done to prevent any more theft.

So stop saying protection from thieves were offered, because it wasn't.

Anyways, this all started because someone wanted to know why people valued possessions over their lives. In my case, it was because trying to protect your possessions only led to frustration and annoyance, and when I log onto the MUD, I don't want to spend hours upon hours to regain something that was taken, or hours upon hours upon hours to replace it.

Apparently others had similar experiences, of the question would have never been raised to begin with.
Last edited by Blizt on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#32 Post by Olrane » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:58 am

We often offered to sell protection, but it was always on a subscription basis. We never got to the point where we realized our goals, but essentially, yes....

We hoped for many happy returns. We would either come back and steal from you again, or we would come back and collect subscription money again.

Our goals were to:
-Create a culture where theft was an everpresent threat
-Extort people into buying protection so that we didn't have to physically steal things AND so that they didn't lose valuable items
-Steal from PCs on a very regular basis so that we all would have roleplay opportunities

Nowhere was it acceptable to simply "stop stealing". We were a guild of thieves, and it was our DUTY to steal from you players, regardless of our income from other sources.

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#33 Post by Blizt » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:06 am

Olrane wrote:We often offered to sell protection, but it was always on a subscription basis. We never got to the point where we realized our goals, but essentially, yes....

We hoped for many happy returns. We would either come back and steal from you again, or we would come back and collect subscription money again.

Our goals were to:
-Create a culture where theft was an everpresent threat
-Extort people into buying protection so that we didn't have to physically steal things AND so that they didn't lose valuable items
-Steal from PCs on a very regular basis so that we all would have roleplay opportunities

Nowhere was it acceptable to simply "stop stealing". We were a guild of thieves, and it was our DUTY to steal from you players, regardless of our income from other sources.
If one of your goals was to extort people into buying protection so you didn't have to physically steal things, then why was the answer to the question of "how to prevent it from happening again" answered with something similar to "nothing, we are just going to keep stealing"?

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#34 Post by Olrane » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:08 am

I argue that it's unfair of you, Blizt, and those who take your side, to be frustrated with the idea that you should have to "keep working" to earn things in the game.

Just as skill points decay over time, so should every single character need to pay a sort of upkeep. Some characters do, and others don't very much, but the idea of routines and re-earning things just for the sake of maintenance is very healthy for roleplay.

Another goal of ours was to create upkeeps for people who didn't have them. Sitting pretty with your nice things and not working? OOCly, I think you should have to earn some gold. ICly, I think I should get to earn a portion of that gold off you, at least if you want this back.

I don't see anything wrong with "annoying" and "frustrating" people by making them earn things. In fact, it was something I set out deliberately to do.

That's only griefing if you ignore that it was with good intentions, not malice.

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#35 Post by Olrane » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:11 am

Blizt wrote: If one of your goals was to extort people into buying protection so you didn't have to physically steal things, then why was the answer to the question of "how to prevent it from happening again" answered with something similar to "nothing, we are just going to keep stealing"?
Not all of this was realized at the same time. There wasn't a meeting that took place two years before everything was set in motion, where everything was planned perfectly and then flawlessly executed.

About "We were going to keep stealing":

Yes. We were always going to steal. It was our DUTY to always be stealing or threatening to steal. If you were protected, then someone else was to be the victim.

BUT! Individuals and maybe (rarely, but never in my ideal) small groups could buy protection on a subscription basis.

That was it.

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#36 Post by Blizt » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:15 am

Well, when I made a mention of it, it was quickly evaded.

I tried, we had meetings, we had conversations, but after the meetings, the only option left was to kill a thief on sight, because they left you no other option.

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#37 Post by fernao » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:26 am

I think the big problem with "having to pay for upkeep" comes from different amounts of time invested into the game.
Someone that has loads of time at hand and "invests" it into the game can easily afford large sums of money, many custome items etc. Those with only few time cannot.
Now if a thief takes things from someone with loads of time, it doesn't hurt that much, other than pride. The items can be replaced or suitable upkeep can be arranged. For those with little time at hand it is totally different. Maybe it took them virtually @years to get enough together to afford a single custom item, and if that is gone, well neither ransom nor replacing comes really into focus and hence that action can lead to serious decission, up to leaving a mud.
So the main problem is that thieves usually cannot know which type of player the person they are taking the item from is.
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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#38 Post by Blizt » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:28 am

Olrane wrote:I argue that it's unfair of you, Blizt, and those who take your side, to be frustrated with the idea that you should have to "keep working" to earn things in the game.

Just as skill points decay over time, so should every single character need to pay a sort of upkeep. Some characters do, and others don't very much, but the idea of routines and re-earning things just for the sake of maintenance is very healthy for roleplay.

Another goal of ours was to create upkeeps for people who didn't have them. Sitting pretty with your nice things and not working? OOCly, I think you should have to earn some gold. ICly, I think I should get to earn a portion of that gold off you, at least if you want this back.

I don't see anything wrong with "annoying" and "frustrating" people by making them earn things. In fact, it was something I set out deliberately to do.

That's only griefing if you ignore that it was with good intentions, not malice.
People don't log onto this MUD to spend hours upon hours to earn something, only to have it stolen the next day, then have to "re-earn" it, by spending hours upon hours again. People want to accomplish other goals, instead of grind out gold to buy something back that was theirs to begin with. Instead, something is so easily stolen, and those other goals have to be ignored, because they have to repurchase something they already worked so hard to earn.

There is no fun involved at all, when something can be so easily stolen by someone hiding behind a disguise (in which you can't tell whom they are) and there is little that can be done to defend against it.

Stealing something seems way to easy, and disguises are just crap. What risks do the thieves have? If they are in a disguise and they get caught, so what? The only problem is if they die, then someone finds out who they are. So what? They can just put on another disguise and walk around and continue to do the same.

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#39 Post by Olrane » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:36 am

Maintenance grinding gives meaning to the non-grinding experiences and fills the gaps when you wonder what to do.

Maintenance grinding is as core to roleplaying games as it is to real life. I do it when I feed myself and pay my rent; if I play a game or go to the bar, that's the adventure.

I think you demonize a perfectly healthy thing way too much.

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Re: Roleplay: Thieves and items

#40 Post by Eluriel » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:36 am

Having thieves is always tricky in that people don't want to be stolen from. They don't want to lose their precious items. But thieves steal, it's just what they do. I think to avoid frustration it should always be an option to buy your things back. Thieves are in it for the money after all. And if someone wants to pay for protection I think a thief should be more than willing to make a deal. And then move on to the next person who isn't protected. There should definitely be a balance between what is fun and profitable for the thief and the amount of grief caused to other players. Obviously no one wants to be stolen from, but hopefully those incidents where it does happen cause some fun interaction for all parties involved and don't leave players oocly pissed off. I think communication is key so that players know that their item isn't gone for good and how they can get it back. Seems like in Blizt's case the message got confused or wasn't made clear.

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