Alchemists... How do we roleplay good and evil?

[luminier]

THE BELOW IS NOT MY POSTS THEY ARE QUOTES FROM ANOTHER TOPIC.


@Alchemists: Seeing that the guild rules are semi-evil/evil, I do not really understand the whole "should not be placed on an good-evil axis" - it already is. Even neutral is. Everything is and must be. And I also do understand why that would not be problematic for a goodie character wanting to play an alchemist? Or does someone think it is good that goodie characters betray their ideals? First priority is potion, second is my god. I'll chase bad guys to the end of the world and back again, but if it's about my personal ability to make potions, I'll just put that aside for a moment and forget about my life's mission. Does not make any sense. Why is that not a problem? I also do not see what potion recipes has anything to do with good/evil. Just because it is possible to make some deadly potions does not mean the guild has to accept it. In general, I feel like these "dont bother me and I wont bother you" peace ambitions are really contra-productive. It really waters out much of the meaning of good/evil and pushes it to even more extremes.

@Alchemists: Seeing that the guild rules are semi-evil/evil, I do not really understand the whole "should not be placed on an good-evil axis" - it already is. Even neutral is. Everything is and must be. And I also do understand why that would not be problematic for a goodie character wanting to play an alchemist? Or does someone think it is good that goodie characters betray their ideals? First priority is potion, second is my god. I'll chase bad guys to the end of the world and back again, but if it's about my personal ability to make potions, I'll just put that aside for a moment and forget about my life's mission. Does not make any sense. Why is that not a problem? I also do not see what potion recipes has anything to do with good/evil. Just because it is possible to make some deadly potions does not mean the guild has to accept it. In general, I feel like these "dont bother me and I wont bother you" peace ambitions are really contra-productive. It really waters out much of the meaning of good/evil and pushes it to even more extremes.

I think the idea is that you do not HAVE to betray your ideals... just don't become an alchemist. Nothing is forcing anyone to join the guild. Why would your character choose potions over following the will of her god? If the answer is that she wouldn't, then it is not the guild's problem but a character problem. I'm not sure why you are trying to make it the guild's problem that your character has trouble reconciling these things. It's an RP issue IMO.

*sigh* I was hoping you would have read my previous notes. It is a game problem, not an RP issue. If this is supposed to be an evil guild, then I'd argue there should be a good variant of the alchemists (which might also accept neutral characters). But with your type of reasoning, nothing can ever be a problem because it is always up to the individual. That does not make any sense. Most characters who are good should have a real problem with joining this guild, and most characters who are neutral should also have that. But since there is no alternative...

And just one more question: Would you honestly prefer that the majority of good players then raid the guild? How come every supposedly good character before ewelyn did the exact same trade-off?

@Alchemists: Seeing that the guild rules are semi-evil/evil, I do not really understand the whole "should not be placed on an good-evil axis" - it already is. Even neutral is. Everything is and must be. And I also do understand why that would not be problematic for a goodie character wanting to play an alchemist? Or does someone think it is good that goodie characters betray their ideals? First priority is potion, second is my god. I'll chase bad guys to the end of the world and back again, but if it's about my personal ability to make potions, I'll just put that aside for a moment and forget about my life's mission. Does not make any sense. Why is that not a problem? I also do not see what potion recipes has anything to do with good/evil. Just because it is possible to make some deadly potions does not mean the guild has to accept it. In general, I feel like these "dont bother me and I wont bother you" peace ambitions are really contra-productive. It really waters out much of the meaning of good/evil and pushes it to even more extremes.

First, the Alchemists are not evil at all imo, but they are also not good, they are scientists and care a nothing about religion or alignment. If then e.g a cleric joins, he will have to make up his mind what to do and what not, like every other char too. Making the alchemists and their potions "clean" for goodies would break the idea behind. And I also doubt that every Alchemist sells his soul and beliefs the way you are describing it as needed. Secondly, not all that follows taniel must be good per definition and vice versa. (And same here, an own thread maybe?)[/quote]

[fernao]

Wow, what a lot of text to browse through.

...
And then there is this mass of ridiculous claims (wild excuses to motivate min-maxing). Like whether Bandama is controlled by Crusaders. If I then tell you that I know for a 100% fact that Crusaders are meant to exert control in Bandama (as in knowing this on wizard-level knowledge, the exact reasons behind it and the exact thing that was decided upon creation, the exact idea and definition of what is the truth), there are still those who claim (for some reason) that this is not true. If you ask the domain lord of Arborea right now, *he* wouldn't even know it. It's just a total disregard of facts.

Well, I am no allmighty, allknowing wizard character that even knows more than the domain lord that is in charge of the area in question. All I know is the stuff I learned IC. When I joined the alchemists, I was told that they originally were located in Elvandar and got moved to Bandama for various reasons, including to allow access to this guild to people that were not welcomed in Elvandar. I assume that is only part of the truth especially since it happened before I started mudding here. As for "controlling Bandama", well there had been many, MANY discussions between the IC leadership of the Alchemists, back then Ondoval, with the Crusaders, Luminier, and the ic solution was, to my knowledge, that the Alchemists were to exert control over Bandama and the crusaders would keep out. No more building of watchtowers in front of the alchemist guild and in return, also no undeads inside Bandama. And this also opened the alchemist guild to clerics and followers of Sathonys. So, in my eyes, that simply puts it to a position where, whatever a game designer intended, the players have made up their own mind and no wizard since then has interfered to "put it back to what is should have been". So this wizard information you mention is totally irrelevant. Sorry.

...
And then for your claim that Nathan or that Alchemists are not evil. Can you please provide some evidence (proof is only valid in the science mathematics)? Do you see the point now? So we disagree about this very fundamental fact that Alchemists are letting evil persons brew potions? Or? Or do you mean that it is not remotely evil? I am not sure in what sort of denial world you are living. The latest trend seems to be some sort of extreme art in relativisation we are using to describe things, in order to deny any sort of constructive argumentation. I am not sure if you tried to be funny, but it is sort of insulting.

Hmm a strange notion you got there. From the ic Taniel point of view, true, all alchemists would have to be defined as evil since they allow evil to exist and even be/become/remain members. However, as Nathan stated, the alchemist guild is NOT a religious organisation. They have rules, and as far as I know, those rules are followed by all members, even those evil ones that are Satho priests!
Yes, there are evil members, yes evil people brew potions. However, there are rules that forbid to the use of certain alchemistic parts, at least inside the guild halls. And those rules are certainly ic influenced by Tanielite thinking. I see it as a precaution against the fanatism of Taniels and Crusaders so that those two groups would have no reason to act against the alchemist guild as a whole but only against those individual alchemists that happen to be alchemists but are mainly enemies of aforementioned groups for other reasons.

[luminier]

I was talking with another player about how Alchemists should be seen.

I agree Alchemists like everything else should be put on the "good-neutral-bad" scale and be subject to everything that is "difficult" just like everyone else is.

Personally I think there is one problem with the alchemists. Goodies and Baddies are forced to pass eachother in the halls and "cooperate" there when in any other location they would not. One might argue... "well if you can do it there... why not everywhere?".

Why would we not roleplay in the alchemist halls? To adhere to the teachings of the potion gods? No, that is silly.

So it makes sense why Ewelyn is voicing a concern. Right now there is just "bad" roleplay (IMO). Before when the alchemists were in Elvandar there was "no" roleplay. What is better? bad? or none?

I can understand OOCly why the Alchemists moved. They were not able to use 50% of their potions and were allowed no freedom to play more corruptly. This means that 50% of the coded potions couldn't be made because they are "bad" but currently it is the same way. humanoid parts still can't be used as a part of alchemical potions.

I think we would benefit from an evil potion store and a good potion store.



OOCly.... to everyone who thinks "science" should be separate from good and evil, that's complete bullshit and you know it! There is a reason we don't clone people, harvest their organs and use them for implants... it's not moral... and thats just one RL example.

[fernao]

Sorry, but now you speak bullshit, Luminier.

As for your stipulation that goodies and evils cannot be in the same room without going at each others throats, well, there are evil scribes and good scribes and they don't go at each other.

There have been dozens if not hundreds of incidents where a Taniel priest and a Satho priest remained in the same room without slugging it out. There have been similar incidents with Sathos and Crusaders.

Anyways, Taniels and Sathos are surely not sitting side by side and having idle chats about this and that in the alchemist guild. We usually avoid each other, and I don't know how other master alchemists do it, but whenever a new candidate approaches the alchemists about joining, i definately tell them if they join under my guidance they might end up having problems due to religious and other reasons.

Research with "forbidden" ingredients is done, by alchemists, but not inside the guild halls. But for that you need to have access to certain items that only the guild can provide. And wether or not the resulting potions and formulas are used depends mainly on the personal conscience of the alchemist in question.

So, yes, there is the good-neutral-evil scale, but its NOT the focus of the alchemists to act upon it. Same with scribes and mages. There are spells and research that can lead to "the dark side". Whether or not a scribe or mage follows that path is up to the individual. It doesn't say anything about the guild providing the means.

In my eyes, I wonder why the crusade hasn't called for a war against the mages that stole the powers of the gods, but hey, thats a different topic, not for this thread.

[Zehren]

My brain ceases to function whenever I read "Satho" or "Sathos". It sounds like some bad sort of cheese.

[Nathan]

I agree Alchemists like everything else should be put on the "good-neutral-bad" scale and be subject to everything that is "difficult" just like everyone else is.

Agreed

Personally I think there is one problem with the alchemists. Goodies and Baddies are forced to pass eachother in the halls and "cooperate" there when in any other location they would not. One might argue... "well if you can do it there... why not everywhere?".

Maybe it's just the price you have to pay when you decide to join, that you might meet people you hate? I dont see a problem in RP-ing that.

Why would we not roleplay in the alchemist halls? To adhere to the teachings of the potion gods? No, that is silly.

There is roleplay in the Alchemists halls, why do you think that there isn't.

So it makes sense why Ewelyn is voicing a concern. Right now there is just "bad" roleplay (IMO). Before when the alchemists were in Elvandar there was "no" roleplay. What is better? bad? or none?

I cannot understand the RP point here. Joining the Alchemists - like joining every other guild - is a decision a char makes, for "good" or "bad" reasons icwise. If a char cannot justify anymore to be a member of some group, he usually will decide to leave and change his life, or? One could also decide just to avoid other guild members you dislike - the guild is not occupied day and night by evils, so to say You can also - if this is still not sufficient - buy some equipment and avoid the guild halls entirely.

I can understand OOCly why the Alchemists moved. They were not able to use 50% of their potions and were allowed no freedom to play more corruptly. This means that 50% of the coded potions couldn't be made because they are "bad" but currently it is the same way. humanoid parts still can't be used as a part of alchemical potions.

Just to clarify, humanoid parts can of course be used as a part of alchemical potions, but it t is forbidden icwise in the alchemists guild halls.

I think we would benefit from an evil potion store and a good potion store.

In which way would that help, just out of curiosity?`To avoid to meet certain people? Wouldn't that be the worst roleplay?

[ewelyn]

So, in my eyes, that simply puts it to a position where, whatever a game designer intended, the players have made up their own mind and no wizard since then has interfered to "put it back to what is should have been". So this wizard information you mention is totally irrelevant. Sorry.

But now you are talking about in-game facts. That had nothing to do with what I said. Sorry.

Hmm a strange notion you got there. From the ic Taniel point of view, true, all alchemists would have to be defined as evil since they allow evil to exist and even be/become/remain members. However, as Nathan stated, the alchemist guild is NOT a religious organisation.

I don't really understand what you mean by IC taniel point of view. Again, that had nothing to do what I said. Nor did I ever state that alchemists are a religious organisations..

I see it as a precaution against the fanatism of Taniels and Crusaders so that those two groups would have no reason to act against the alchemist guild as a whole but only against those individual alchemists that happen to be alchemists but are mainly enemies of aforementioned groups for other reasons.

Exactly. Thank you for re-inforcing my point. The rules are actually formed for the purpose of ruling out characters that don't fit into a certain category. And up til now most people have been pretty fine with it.

I really did not witness that Min-Max trend, I mean you will always find players playing according to the given framework (which is way more than just coded features), and others that don't. But claiming that most of the players do so is maybe said too much, I think it's a minority.

Only that I never claimed most of the players do so. But it does not take that many at all for the system to go that direction, but yes I think it is the wide trend. I think if you can not see that, then you are in a very deep disagreement with me about what is min-max and not.

I did not even mention Nathan, you have been the one declaring the Alchemists as evil, and I asked to to explain why.

I take it as you don't think allowing evils in, is any evil at all. Fine. And no, you have been implying that the Alchemists are not evil, so I have asked you to explain why I do not see how claiming they are is somehow bigger than claiming they are not!

Then again, it wouldn't really matter which label you choose to put on it anyway, since that changes according to IC views and has not necessarily anything to do with it either.. It's just one more way of describing something.

[Phelan]

Seriously?

I am quite surprised about all this evil or not evil alchemists nonsense, and then nobody seems to care about Taniels and Crusaders supporting and being supported by Thieves (yes, those are really evil). If something is bad RP, it's that and not the alchs.

[ewelyn]

Sorry - just realized I posted into the wrong topic (other thread). I got sort of confused.

@Phelan: I was not really aware of any thieves supporting Taniels. I dont think you should be stating this in the forums since you are giving away supposedly secret in-game information. Ewelyn's knowledge is also quite restricted (much more than OOC knowledge or what you might otherwise think). For the record, I always note down whenever she learns something important, and I play her strictly by that list of knowledge.

[fernao]

Seriously?

I am quite surprised about all this evil or not evil alchemists nonsense, and then nobody seems to care about Taniels and Crusaders supporting and being supported by Thieves (yes, those are really evil). If something is bad RP, it's that and not the alchs.

+1

[ghalt]

There is roleplay in the Alchemists halls, why do you think that there isn't.

This, basically. I mean, I doubt we're all 100% in-game lore-approved accurate in our roleplay, but I'd like to think we're trying?

So it makes sense why Ewelyn is voicing a concern. Right now there is just "bad" roleplay (IMO). Before when the alchemists were in Elvandar there was "no" roleplay. What is better? bad? or none?

Bad is much better. Bad roleplay is awkward and verging on nonsensical. No roleplay and I start to notice the truly horrible graphics in the game and go play skyrim or watch TV. ^_^

(I'm not agreeing with your opinion here, but I did want to state that, more than anything. No roleplay is no interaction is find-another-game time.)

[ganandorf]

Sometimes making the game enjoyable for a larger majority is a greater good than accurate roleplay. It is a game first, before it is an online world.

[Azaera]

I am really wondering why anyone would assume there is "bad" roleplay in the alchemists guild. We actually have quite a lot of IC discussion about guild politics that no one would know about outside of the guild, which obviously does NOT need to be shared here. But just not liking something about the guild and calling "bad" RP is kind of nonsensical IMHO.

[luminier]

Perhaps I misspoke or people just misunderstood, but, I did not say the alchemists were bad roleplayers. I said that it was "bad roleplay" that outside of the guild halls there would be a definite fight between in say... Lucifer and Ewelyn but inside they just cooperate? That sounds like you are ignoring the RP guidelines that are given to you.... that is what I mean by Bad Roleplay.

As far as what you said Azaera, yes they guild politics RP surrounding the alchemists is great. As far as I am concerned this is not what is in dispute in this topic.

I totally agree that everyone is trying to make a good effort at roleplaying. But what I am saying is that the game is setting you up to fail. Why would we have good and evil people working together under one roof? That makes no sense. That is why i suggested there be two alchemist places. Why not have one in Asador? That city is boring enough as it is... and theres nothing to do there! That way everyone can be happy IC and OOC and we have a game where the design of it sets roleplay up to fail.

Lets face facts. Alchemy is offered and "good" people will do it whether or not bad people are in the guild. Lets not force them to make a choice and just have two separate guilds? huzzah?


@Phelan and fernao.
I would, and I think everyone, agrees that bringing up IC info on an OOC forum especially about secretive issues is not nice. I assure you that the thieves have no "alliance" with Taniels or Crusaders. If they are "helping" us as you seem to think it probably is because they don't want to be found out immediately as other thieves have in the past. Lets end the talk there.



As for the talk about the scribes Fernao, I believe I heard that Taniel Clerics cannot be accepted as scribes anymore. So there definitely has been some "infighting" and politics there as well. It is not all rainbows.


I think the big picture is this. If you go evil you shouldn't get access to somethings because you are evil. Alchemy however I think should be an exception to this. Again ill quote Abharsair... "This is not an equal opportunity MUD".

If you make choices IC you'll get screwed out of doing somethings. I think it is time we came to terms with that yes?

As always IMO.

[luminier]

Sorry, but now you speak bullshit, Luminier.

It is not bullshit, thank you very much. =D

As for your stipulation that goodies and evils cannot be in the same room without going at each others throats, well, there are evil scribes and good scribes and they don't go at each other.

See above, good and evil scribes have had their issues.

There have been dozens if not hundreds of incidents where a Taniel priest and a Satho priest remained in the same room without slugging it out. There have been similar incidents with Sathos and Crusaders.

Yes because without these incidents how could we ever return each other's gear? Or barter for a life? It is much easier to talk in person instead of talking to someone like Luminier who can't mind call people back on a whim. These "meetings" are always done begrudgingly and they are avoided whenever possible. This is not the case with the Scribes and Alchemists. They work "side by side" because someone tells them they must or they must leave. Who do you think would break first? The person who does care (Sathonites)? Or the person that has to RP that they care (Tanielites)?

Anyways, Taniels and Sathos are surely not sitting side by side and having idle chats about this and that in the alchemist guild. We usually avoid each other, and I don't know how other master alchemists do it, but whenever a new candidate approaches the alchemists about joining, i definately tell them if they join under my guidance they might end up having problems due to religious and other reasons.

That is great, I am happy you do that.

Research with "forbidden" ingredients is done, by alchemists, but not inside the guild halls. But for that you need to have access to certain items that only the guild can provide. And wether or not the resulting potions and formulas are used depends mainly on the personal conscience of the alchemist in question.

I realize that research is done, but, seeing them used in practice is very rare. I would like to change that, wouldn't you? Right now it's highly regulated because of the goodies presence and I would like to see it not as regulated by having your own alchemy guild in Asador. Why are you arguing with me again?

So, yes, there is the good-neutral-evil scale, but its NOT the focus of the alchemists to act upon it. Same with scribes and mages. There are spells and research that can lead to "the dark side". Whether or not a scribe or mage follows that path is up to the individual. It doesn't say anything about the guild providing the means.

It should be the focus of everyone who is good-neutral-evil to play their part though. Things should not be ignored because they are inconvenient and that is my point here. Taniels and Sathonites working together under the same roof is very silly IMO.

In my eyes, I wonder why the crusade hasn't called for a war against the mages that stole the powers of the gods, but hey, thats a different topic, not for this thread.

If you want to talk about how Crusaders have dealt with the mages PM me or start a new topic on how you think it should be held. Ill be more than happy to reply to you!

I agree Alchemists like everything else should be put on the "good-neutral-bad" scale and be subject to everything that is "difficult" just like everyone else is.

Agreed

I am pleased you agree.

[

Personally I think there is one problem with the alchemists. Goodies and Baddies are forced to pass eachother in the halls and "cooperate" there when in any other location they would not. One might argue... "well if you can do it there... why not everywhere?".

Maybe it's just the price you have to pay when you decide to join, that you might meet people you hate? I dont see a problem in RP-ing that.

Right and I am saying that it is a silly price to have to pay because you have to essentially give up roleplay in order to become an alchemist. It should not be this way. Therefore I suggested 2 alchemy guilds. You can't RP seeing someone in the halls that has just murdered all your friends and not attack them. Thats not RP thats just a lack of RP.

[

Why would we not roleplay in the alchemist halls? To adhere to the teachings of the potion gods? No, that is silly.

There is roleplay in the Alchemists halls, why do you think that there isn't.

You took what I said out of context. What I meant by the lack of roleplay in the alchemy guild is that Ewelyn and Lucifer would see eachother and be expected to not kill eachother. As I said _originally_ (i would appreciate if you would read my whole post... or not post) when two people cross paths and kill each other it's weird that they wouldn't do it in one place because the master of potions tells them not to. They should only be answering to gods here... not some potion master. Which was my point.

[

So it makes sense why Ewelyn is voicing a concern. Right now there is just "bad" roleplay (IMO). Before when the alchemists were in Elvandar there was "no" roleplay. What is better? bad? or none?

I cannot understand the RP point here. Joining the Alchemists - like joining every other guild - is a decision a char makes, for "good" or "bad" reasons icwise. If a char cannot justify anymore to be a member of some group, he usually will decide to leave and change his life, or? One could also decide just to avoid other guild members you dislike - the guild is not occupied day and night by evils, so to say You can also - if this is still not sufficient - buy some equipment and avoid the guild halls entirely.

I understand what you mean by this and Ill counter by saying that it is my point. The current alchemists guild is forcing "goodies" to have to make poor RP decisions to become alchemists. Why would you ever want to be a part of a guild IRL that lets in murderers as people who study? I would be seriously concerned if my university let in known and convicted criminals to study in my university. But we don't make that decision IG because people still want to learn about potions so they say fuck it. This is the absence of roleplay that I am talking about.

[

I can understand OOCly why the Alchemists moved. They were not able to use 50% of their potions and were allowed no freedom to play more corruptly. This means that 50% of the coded potions couldn't be made because they are "bad" but currently it is the same way. humanoid parts still can't be used as a part of alchemical potions.

Just to clarify, humanoid parts can of course be used as a part of alchemical potions, but it t is forbidden icwise in the alchemists guild halls.

Oh I know humanoid parts can be used, but, they don't seem to be used in practice very much which seems like a grand waste of code. Everything has been "researched" behind closed doors. But youll be catching hell if anyone ever outs you.

[

I think we would benefit from an evil potion store and a good potion store.

In which way would that help, just out of curiosity?`To avoid to meet certain people? Wouldn't that be the worst roleplay?

In what way would that help? It would help in the sense that we wouldn't have to make shitty roleplay decisions in order to have fun with GEAS. And isn't that the point? To have fun?

Seriously?

I am quite surprised about all this evil or not evil alchemists nonsense, and then nobody seems to care about Taniels and Crusaders supporting and being supported by Thieves (yes, those are really evil). If something is bad RP, it's that and not the alchs.

+1

No, not +1.
-1. This is bad. Don't support this type of talk.

There is roleplay in the Alchemists halls, why do you think that there isn't.

This, basically. I mean, I doubt we're all 100% in-game lore-approved accurate in our roleplay, but I'd like to think we're trying?

So it makes sense why Ewelyn is voicing a concern. Right now there is just "bad" roleplay (IMO). Before when the alchemists were in Elvandar there was "no" roleplay. What is better? bad? or none?

Bad is much better. Bad roleplay is awkward and verging on nonsensical. No roleplay and I start to notice the truly horrible graphics in the game and go play skyrim or watch TV. ^_^

(I'm not agreeing with your opinion here, but I did want to state that, more than anything. No roleplay is no interaction is find-another-game time.)

Ghalt I never stated that no one was not trying. I said that as the game is now it is very silly. It is silly that goodies and baddies work together under the same roof. Even if they don't support eachother one influences the other and vice versa. I am saying that in the alchemists this should not be. There should be a "decent" alchemy place and a "not decent" one. And obviously if you want to study the less savory aspects of alchemy... go to the "not decent" one... and if you are "evil" or a darkelf you can't study in the "decent" alchemy place because well evil's shouldn't have access to everything "just because". This is the downside of being evil... there really ought to be more....

Maybe "bad" roleplay is better but if it can be fixed, why do we need to accept it? Do you see what I am saying now? I hope that clears things up for you.

[luminier]

I was thinking of deleting my post, but, Ill keep my post up cause I put time into it. I more just wanted to put it out there that im not trying to say anyone doesn't roleplay. That they just sometimes have to make shitty decisions that they shouldn't have to make in order to learn alchemy. Thats all.


But in all honesty I don't give a shit what happens lol.


Tell me to go blow myself as much as you want =D

[Azaera]

I've never actually seen Ewelyn and Lucifer in the guild anywhere near the same times, but can I just say...

I think it would be totally awesome if they threw down right in the middle of the guild, lol.

I may come back with a more productive comment later.

[Delia]

Alchemy is viewed with suspicion, help files atleast hint as much. At the very least it is not applaudable to be one. So it is fair to say that alchemists can be seen as a shady bunch. The whole situation is problematic as it can change when/if different notions take over the Arborean legal system. Unless something drastic happens the villages are, to the best of my knowledge part of Arborea and subject to its laws.

Now about the scribes as it is slightly of relevance and they were mentioned...

The cheesy Sathos were ousted from the guild for many reasons. Following the laws of the time was one. Sathos often attacked the city, hence the guild would not suffer any members of an organization that does so. Sathos even raided the guild. Hard to trust people like that

And for the record the guild is not flooded with Taniel clerics, Crusaders and/or their sympathizers even if Sathos and other "rabble" are kept out. Crusader members fall easily into same ranks with the Sathos and clerics might view the guild with suspicion as the higher knowledge there does not suit them well. I should stress that being a scribe is NOT being a mage even if it helps pave the way towards learning high magic.

[Delia]

Also it should be kept in mind that some elements of society(outside elements even more so) are not necessarily considered as people at all but as THINGS without any merits nor rights and that is perfectly normal and acceptable. Infact insisting otherwise is very controversial. Dark elves, goblinoids and such fall into this category. Consepts such as freedom of speech and expression, equal rights for all and all that horror cloaked in rainbows simply does not apply. Unless one is a hardcore Gwenite

[Delia]

One thing I am particularly interested in is how is alchemy viewed in Geas? The word science has been tossed around but somehow I would be more partial towards abstracting it as mystical transformations of matter rather than as a science with the modern ring to it I cannot escape from feeling whenever science and scientific method is discussed IC.