Bandama... A consideration

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ewelyn
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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#21 Post by ewelyn » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:02 am

luminier wrote:The Asralites and Sathonites could assault Elvandar and make their way to the Queen and kidnap her or just imprison her. Does that mean they should have control over the city? It is realistic definitely but it is not how the game is supposed to work.
I do not think it falls short. There are essentially two or three differences between Bandama and Elvandar:

1. Elvandar has guards. Unlike Bandama, we can assume it has the capacity to defend itself. Elvandar has most likely thousands of guards, while the enemy forces are much less. Even if we assume Sathos have let's say 20-50 undead marching along 4 high-level death-priests, it is somewhat unrealistic that they would break through (I'd argue that Satho priests are meant to be rare though). Now all of these hundreds of guards are not modelled in-game, just like every citizen is not. There are just four guards, and *that* is a realism-problem, because technically you will break through when you killed those four.

2. Power. The game is often unbalanced in terms of how strong the good and evil side is. The main factor is how many characters log on for each side, and I think the course of the game should never be based on what happens on such things, but rather excellence in RP (if we now speak of something as major as something that should overthrow the Queen). Secondly, much of that power is based on the size of each character which varies greatly with interest in powergaming and time each player has put into the game. This is also not a good criteria to drive the plot, again, it must be done on RP reasons, with a major effort from mainly the evil side. It would sort of be a shame if such main events that happen in the game are based on the fact that someone skilled up his character more than every other's, because I believe that would be a truly low mark in terms of roleplaying. In that case, we would have a powergame-driven game, and not a roleplaying-driven game.

That said, I think power-mechanics can definitely play a role. If you have for example two sides that are nearly quite equal in power, a conflict is going on and you need a final verdict and decide to "roll the dice" to see who comes out as a winner - I think it could definitely fall back on letting this rule the final decision.

3. From a game-perspective, it makes sense with some safe areas, not to mention newbies. I think in some way that people need a "base" of sorts, even evils need Asador intact. The question is sort of how the future would look if e.g. Elvandar or Asador city is razed. I personally think it is alright and I believe roleplaying is very possible, but it does sort of make a big change to the game.

That said, I *personally* would not object if the wizards decided that Elvandar has been attacked so much that it should fall. It would be highly entertaining for everyone involved, especially the goodie side. Even deciding that the Queen is now dead or kidnapped. What a milestone! I am all *for* such interventions, just like I would be *for* such an intervention in Bandama. The problem is to know exactly in which cases wizards would commit to those things, and in which cases they would not, but for me personally that would not matter.

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#22 Post by Nathan » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:31 am

ewelyn wrote:What a milestone! I am all *for* such interventions, just like I would be *for* such an intervention in Bandama. The problem is to know exactly in which cases wizards would commit to those things, and in which cases they would not, but for me personally that would not matter.
Hmm, ok, I am trying to recap your argumentation:
1.) First you ask for your own, white Alchemists guild
2.) Then you want "old static game facts" reiinforced, declining any game dynamics
3.) Then you want the crusaders to take over control over Bandama in game, just found no friends
4.) Now you demand a wizard intervention to make Bandama Crusader-controlled because the game is not dynamic enough? Really, hasn't it been you dragging around "static game facts" all the time?

And this all because Ewelyn has to share ressources with "evil" persons? Why don't you just go for it in game then? Takes too long? Or what is the problem?

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#23 Post by Zehren » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:17 am

Nathan wrote: Hmm, ok, I am trying to recap your argumentation:
1.) First you ask for your own, white Alchemists guild
2.) Then you want "old static game facts" reiinforced, declining any game dynamics
3.) Then you want the crusaders to take over control over Bandama in game, just found no friends
4.) Now you demand a wizard intervention to make Bandama Crusader-controlled because the game is not dynamic enough? Really, hasn't it been you dragging around "static game facts" all the time?

And this all because Ewelyn has to share ressources with "evil" persons? Why don't you just go for it in game then? Takes too long? Or what is the problem?
I do not think you have adequately represented Ewelyn's argumentation.
Please do not write in accusatory styles.



As an aside, why have you put quotes around evil?
Sathonites and Lilithians (and darkelves) *are* evil. They are objectively defined as such per the game. I realise that objective facts are not easy to accept/understand for modern relativists, but it is all there.
http://www.geas.de/?page_id=319&help=sathonys
Sathonys is one of the evil gods.
http://www.geas.de/?page_id=319&help=lilith
Lilith is one of the evil goddesses.
Asral is a neutral god.
Zhakrin is a truly neutral deity.
Gwen is a good goddess.
Evren is a good goddess.
Taniel is a good god.
Per much classical literature, many who commit evil deeds do so willingly, and knowingly. Faust deals with the devil.

Sathonites ought to acknowledge that they are evil, imho. And they should feel in the right being so. Not feel that Sathonys is good. Right. Why would they want to take the label those accursed Evrenites take, anyway? (Except jealousy, of course.) Good is oppression! Evil is freedom!
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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#24 Post by Nathan » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:57 pm

Zehren wrote:Please do not write in accusatory styles.

I do not think that i was writing accusatory, and also it was not meant this way. Infact I am fine with anything that happens in game, but I also have the feeling that this thread tends to become a little metagaming.
Zehren wrote:As an aside, why have you put quotes around evil?
I put a quote around "evil", because "evil" in this context was not entirely accurate, please read it as not-good, including anyone but Tanielites and Evrenites.

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#25 Post by Zehren » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:38 pm

Nathan wrote:I do not think that i was writing accusatory, and also it was not meant this way. Infact I am fine with anything that happens in game, but I also have the feeling that this thread tends to become a little metagaming.
I think having discussions are healthy. Meta, translated as behind, certainly makes sense to have. Unless players can agree on the backdrop, the scene, to play on, things turn very hard very fast, no?
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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#26 Post by Nathan » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:57 pm

Zehren wrote:I think having discussions are healthy. Meta, translated as behind, certainly makes sense to have. Unless players can agree on the backdrop, the scene, to play on, things turn very hard very fast, no?
Discussions? Doubtlessly. Metagaming? I am unsure. And with metagaming, just to clarify that, I mean a discussion hat moves the action from the game to the forum. I am not saying that we are at this point already, but it's close imo.

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#27 Post by luminier » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:10 pm

Nathan wrote: Discussions? Doubtlessly. Metagaming? I am unsure. And with metagaming, just to clarify that, I mean a discussion hat moves the action from the game to the forum. I am not saying that we are at this point already, but it's close imo.
If you are afraid that suddenly the wizards will step in and do everything Ewelyn has stated here, I assure you that will not take place.

You can throw a "metagaming" label on any OOC talk IMO.

Lets get back to Bandama?
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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#28 Post by Nathan » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:46 pm

No, I am just missing the ingame action. But ok, back to bandama

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#29 Post by isengoo » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:31 am

The only thing I'd like changed about Bandama is Lloronix stopping her belly aching.

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#30 Post by ewelyn » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:19 pm

I give up..

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#31 Post by Sairina » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:05 am

I really don't get what the problem is? As far as I can tell, the situation in Bandama is such:

The village falls under Arborean law, so the person of highest authority there is technically the judge of Arborea. At the same time, to quote an old chinese proverb "The mountains are high and the emperor is far away", so the actual enforcement of/agreement with Arborean laws in Bandama might suffer from the distance to Arborea. Religion-wise, the local population most likely is a mix of Asrals and Taniels, with their chapel being so close and likely more merchants and farmers than warriors. The alchemists have a lot of influence in the village, being the only guild there, but they certainly don't rule over it nor do they have the means or intention to do so. If the Crusaders wanted to take control of Bandama, I don't see anything that prevents them from trying IG - there won't be any resistance worth speaking of from the alchemists, but Arborea might not be too happy about it.
Well, the answer is to a large part that they have the ability to expel members. This "guild membership" is totally a code-mechanism consideration that is immune to roleplaying ones. Even if the Crusaders would storm the place daily, the masters would still retain this power. Is this realistic? Of course not. I think this knowledge is something that makes people refrain from doing such a thing, because they know that the code limits their RP. This could of course easily be solved if wizards would be prepared to adjust the powers (i.e. modify the ranks of the alchemists) according to such realities.
:shock: I'm not even sure what you're suggesting here?

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#32 Post by adanath » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:07 pm

Adanath come back
Ewelyn no here yets, Ewelyn wake ups!

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#33 Post by luminier » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:05 pm

Sairina wrote::shock: I'm not even sure what you're suggesting here?
Correct me if I am wrong, I believe she is suggesting that because the masters are "coded" to be in power they cannot be overthrown even if they were to be raided daily by the Crusaders.

Does that make more sense?
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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#34 Post by Sairina » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:58 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, I believe she is suggesting that because the masters are "coded" to be in power they cannot be overthrown even if they were to be raided daily by the Crusaders.

Does that make more sense?
Not really? If the guild gets raided every day, what does it matter who's got the power to expel people from it? Why would anyone even want to stay in a guild that gets raided every day? It's got no ressources, no power and no roleplay to offer other than getting killed by Crusaders every damn day... Besides, isn't this true for any guild? What sense would it make for a guild to _not_ be able to expel members?

Edit: And isn't this exactly as this game is intended, to let the player characters rule guilds and cities and determine where they're heading? If you don't agree, you can use the system to overthrow the existing order and make a new one. That's what keeps the game alive. If you don't like what the current judge is doing, get into politics and get people on your side to replace him/her and do it your way. Don't like what the current guild masters are doing? Hurry up with that promotion and change the system from the inside. Want the Crusaders to take Bandama? Well, maybe you can incite them do do so, at least it's worth a try.

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#35 Post by luminier » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:21 pm

I am fairly certain people would simply work around these issues instead of dealing with the Crusaders =P...

I don't know what it is about the Crusaders, but no one likes making treaties with us unless we get the crap end of the stick - at least that has been my experience.

Anyways we aren't doing what you suggested for other reasons. I believe Ewelyn thought the Crusaders should have Bandama just because. I know we can't do that right now because of some tactical reasons.

Changing them from the inside might be good.
Arborea you can't really change from the inside now though since the elections are being somewhat "limited".
Also I tend to agree with Ewelyn about darkelves. -Mostly- everyone roleplays them as "not so bad" when they should be treated like evils. Right now it's like the Crusaders are "evil" when all we've done since Luminier "took power" was "good" and all the evils have done is raid people and force them into submission and suddenly they are the unsung heroes who deserve protection?

Perhaps time for a new topic. Ha. But I believe it has some bearing on the topic. Evils are treated far too kindly and it's makes playing a good character quite difficult.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#36 Post by Aslak » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:49 am

Hi,

I do not think most people view or treat darkelves as "not so evil". I at least do, even more then elves are already evil :)

But I also see the crusade as "wrong"doers. In their conquest for good, they are doing quite evil deeds.

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#37 Post by luminier » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:59 pm

Well that's is just obvious to me. By today's standards the Crusaders are pretty evil. By medieval standards they are the best of the best goodies.

Getting mad at us for killing criminals is just going to get a laugh and a calm explanation from us IC.
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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#38 Post by Drayn » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:21 pm

maybe the goodies should withdraw from the world and let people wallow in the evil they've invited into their homes, mwahahahahahaa!

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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#39 Post by luminier » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:33 pm

Then Sathonys and Lilith will turn into the Goodies and Taniel and Evren will be the baddies. AWwwww yeaaa.

I've always wanted to make Luminier evil. NOW I AM.
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Re: Bandama... A consideration

#40 Post by Zehren » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:26 pm

luminier wrote:Then Sathonys and Lilith will turn into the Goodies and Taniel and Evren will be the baddies. AWwwww yeaaa.

I've always wanted to make Luminier evil. NOW I AM.
But... What does this mean for Zehren's alignment? O.o

Edit: I just realised: WE COULD ALL MAKE SATHONITE CHARACTERS :D

Edit edit: I already have one. Damn. I have so many characters T.T
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