Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

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luminier
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Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#1 Post by luminier » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:10 pm

Before I head off to work I wanted to ask a question and maybe get some wheels rolling. I was trying to think of some differences between the "true neutral" god Zhakrin and the "neutral" god Asral.

As I understand it, Zhakrin likes neither good nor evil, in fact he likes nothing and hates nothing. He is nothing but balance. I think the only thing he wants is balance, I don't think he wants peace or war but I don't think he doesn't want peace or war. (sorry for the double negative)

In short Zhakrin wants balance (I think, though maybe he wants nothing =D)

However, the way Asralites roleplay with some exceptions, seems to be almost the same way. Asralites currently seem to want "peace", which IMO should be "bad for business" for them. Peace means no war and no war means no glory. They should -always- be looking for a fight, if you aren't looking for glory, but instead you are hiding from it, does that really make you an Asralite? IMO it doesn't, but thats just my opinion, Id like to hear from others.

Also the reason I bring up Zhakrin is because I wanted to know the roll he serves now that it seems like Asral leans toward fighting for balance between the good and evil while Zhakrin also wants balance but he wants it without using force.

I think Zhakrin's scales are a metaphor for how a follower should attempt to achieve "true balance". With scales, it's very hard to "force" the scales into a balance and as soon as you let go of the scales (as soon as you lose the power to hold the balance in the world) the scales move rapidly and chaotically as they start to settle. So instead you have to metaphorically "move stones around" in order to achieve some balance in the world? Now the question is how should someone move stones. It sounds like Zhakrin should be the philosophical lets talk about how to balance things out kind of clergy. It sounds like Asral should be the no-nonsense lets kill everyone until we have our fill of bloodlust and war and balance is achieved.

Does this sound like it should be the way? If not, please share your opinion. As Luminier Ive talked to many Asralites and this is the impression I've tried to leave on them, but none seem really interested in fighting for a great glory. They just seem interested in keeping people happy OOC. There should be room for that definitely but not when it affects the IC culture.
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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#2 Post by luminier » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:46 pm

I probably shouldve mentioned, I don't think anyone is roleplaying wrong.

I am looking for some opinions on Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay and how the two should differ and whether or not Asral should be considered neutral and if he is how is he a "different kind of neutral" than Zhakrin.

So basically what I am looking for is...

If a newbie asked you how to "generally" roleplay an Asralite or Zhakrinite, what would you tell them?
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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#3 Post by isengoo » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:50 pm

Asrals don't want peace, we want an even battle field. Though, what happens with politics in Arborea doesn't reflect the guild entirely.

Also, I think you are reading too much into the scales. I think they are just a fun and interesting mini game to gain favour.

As for how to roleplay each side, I think the idea of Asral and balance doesn't connect. It just means Asrals will fight either side, so long as it's a good fight.

For Zhakrins you could probably go either way. Force neutrality or observe/ponder it. This worship is much more flexible, I think.

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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#4 Post by luminier » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:22 pm

isengoo wrote:Asrals don't want peace, we want an even battle field. Though, what happens with politics in Arborea doesn't reflect the guild entirely.

Also, I think you are reading too much into the scales. I think they are just a fun and interesting mini game to gain favour.

As for how to roleplay each side, I think the idea of Asral and balance doesn't connect. It just means Asrals will fight either side, so long as it's a good fight.

For Zhakrins you could probably go either way. Force neutrality or observe/ponder it. This worship is much more flexible, I think.
To me though... even battlefield = helping one side win against the other, then when the other side starts losing... would you help them?... never ending war... then it's what I suggested... always fighting? :mrgreen:

Shouldn't Arborea reflect Asral's wishes? Right now it seems like the Asralites are doing whats best for Arborea OOCly and ICly, not whats best for the Asralites IC. Again IMO.

Scales are one of the symbols for Zhakrin though! Should be important!

So they'll fight to fight, but they aren't concerned with balance? I think you might be saying what I am saying but with different words. I am saying they fight for the losing side to balance the power. You (I think) are saying that they fight for the losing side because it's for glory. In essence though, it's the same thing I think?

For Zhakrin I really don't think it makes sense to force neutrality. How would you argue that it makes sense? I think following Zhakrin only "seems" flexible because theres almost no lore behind Zhakrin. If you ask Thor about "balance" he has no idea what you mean haha
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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#5 Post by anglachel » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:09 am

In my opinion Asral likes fight and wars, but not for every price. If you risk your life i should make sense. To die for glory and fame is ok (~ The three hundred), but simple suicide is not ok.
This more a think for Lilith follower. For them a fight is a good fight then many die and much is destroyed, on which side is not important.
For Asral the rules of war important too. No Asral follower should break the rules to get an advantages in a fight. Only honorable victory is real victory. The word of an Asral warrior is made of steel and will never broken.

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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#6 Post by Aslak » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:00 pm

Hello,

the way I have seen and be taught the way of Asral was that an warrior of Asral will not shy away from a necassary battle, but will also not try to start one with everyone around him. Like Archangel said already the honour of the battle is more important then the battle itself. That is also why Aslral supports a vastly underpowered side which still does bot shy away from facing a certain defeat if forced to do so. He would not help for suicid, so if I would attack Asador without need.

For the difference between Asral and Zharkin:
Asral does not likes extremists, like the crusade, goblinoids, Sathos. Simply all those who does not allow any other ideas but their own.
Zharkin does only want that neither side gets too dominant over the other extreme, but does not sees the extremes as bad on their own.

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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#7 Post by Cuetlachtli » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:42 pm

I've been playing a Zhakrin follower for a while, one that at least takes his meditations on balance fairly seriously.

I've also played my char as one quite willing to 'talk shop' about balance and philosophy in general. This seems pretty consistent with my idea about Zhakrin and its followers.

My character typically also says that Zhakrin worship is very flexible. This is probably due to a lack of Lore, but I think it also makes sense. This is in reference to 'forcing' balance or 'attaining' balance. Usually he talks about it as two basic ways to follow, in one way you focus on inner balance in your life and actions and in that way hope to influence the world balance in a small way. The other way is to actively seek and 'force' balance. This could be through supporting a losing side in combat, maybe by lying or something to give an underhand to some powerful group, or an upperhand to weak one. It could be done in some other ways as well. The basic idea is that it's not focused as much on your personal inner balance, but rather on external balance in the world.

I'm not sure how truly justified that is, but that's the reasoning my char generally has been using. He also claims that worship of Zhakrin is a very personal sort, requiring much self meditation and reflection. This is likely also due to lack of Lore. But also recall that Zhakrin is a God of Secrets. So maybe a lack of Lore makes sense in some way, and personal meditation and meditation on the Scales being the way to unlock them?

Btw, I think the scales are more than just a fun mini-game. At least from an RP standpoint, my char takes them seriously enough.

How this differs from Asral, in my view, is that you could be concerned with Balance and not give much, or even any thought at all, to combat and glory.

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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#8 Post by Nathan » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:43 pm

luminier wrote:To me though... even battlefield = helping one side win against the other, then when the other side starts losing... would you help them?... never ending war... then it's what I suggested... always fighting? :mrgreen:
Somehow this szenario has become impossible as you know, we have been discussing this more than once already I mean - Luminier is a good example here, he sais, and he is maybe right in this point "the Asrals have once supported the sathos a hundred years ago (or such), and because of that, I will not forge alliances with them".

This stance is icly absolutely ok, but of course it ruined the idea of balancing the battlefield IG - because if the Asrals cant team with the side of light, they also cannot team with the dark side without making Luminiers stance more and more true, and also without drifting deeper and deeper to the dark side. So in the end, they team up with nobody to avoid to become even more dark.
luminier wrote:Shouldn't Arborea reflect Asral's wishes? Right now it seems like the Asralites are doing whats best for Arborea OOCly and ICly, not whats best for the Asralites IC. Again IMO.
Oh, I think that Arborea is currently driven according to Asrals stance, there is absolutely no need for Arborea to parttake at a war, even if the Asralites should be a party there - Arborea will only go to war, when its vital interests are in danger - which currently is only every now and then the case.
luminier wrote:So they'll fight to fight, but they aren't concerned with balance? I think you might be saying what I am saying but with different words. I am saying they fight for the losing side to balance the power. You (I think) are saying that they fight for the losing side because it's for glory. In essence though, it's the same thing I think?
In the meantime the Asral codex has been changed - balancing the battlefield is no longer the Asralites main purpose, they are more a thrid force, besides light and dark.
luminier wrote:However, the way Asralites roleplay with some exceptions, seems to be almost the same way. Asralites currently seem to want "peace", which IMO should be "bad for business" for them. Peace means no war and no war means no glory. They should -always- be looking for a fight, if you aren't looking for glory, but instead you are hiding from it, does that really make you an Asralite? IMO it doesn't, but thats just my opinion, Id like to hear from others.
Please Clarify here - Why do you mean that the Asralites seek peace? Because they avoided a war against Elvandar? Or why?

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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#9 Post by Allurana » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:29 am

I assume the accusation of "peaceful Asrals" comes from them avoiding war with both Elvandar and the Sathos.

Personally I don't think the incompatibility between Asrals and the good side is all that unreasonable. It might suck for the Asrals' new concept of neutrality, sure, but there's a lot of historical bad blood between the Asralites and goodies. I don't think it would make a lot of sense for both sides to suddenly get along despite years of RP rivalry.

It makes more sense to me for the Asrals to simply be an independent third side, as they've always been as far as I've seen. They're never going to be close to either evils or goodies, and trying to be seems like wasted effort.

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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#10 Post by luminier » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:48 pm

Nathan wrote:Somehow this szenario has become impossible as you know, we have been discussing this more than once already I mean - Luminier is a good example here, he sais, and he is maybe right in this point "the Asrals have once supported the sathos a hundred years ago (or such), and because of that, I will not forge alliances with them".

This stance is icly absolutely ok, but of course it ruined the idea of balancing the battlefield IG - because if the Asrals cant team with the side of light, they also cannot team with the dark side without making Luminiers stance more and more true, and also without drifting deeper and deeper to the dark side. So in the end, they team up with nobody to avoid to become even more dark.
Ill start by saying that Luminier will not team with Asralites but I have never cited what you said as the reason =P. It is as Allurana said, we've always been rivals, it isn't just what you mentioned but it is a small part of it. I am truly sorry if you feel that my RP has somehow ruined your ability to play your character -or- how you think you should play it. I am of the belief that the codex is destined to fail because it fails to recognize that not everyone may want to team with the Asralites.
Nathan wrote: Oh, I think that Arborea is currently driven according to Asrals stance, there is absolutely no need for Arborea to parttake at a war, even if the Asralites should be a party there - Arborea will only go to war, when its vital interests are in danger - which currently is only every now and then the case.
Which is partially my point. You have said there is no need for Asralites to go to war. I argue that Asralites should always be at war or striving to achieve glory in order to differ themselves from Zhakrinites. As it stands they seem almost no different from the Zhakrinite Clergy who (presumably) would work to achieve balance for the sake of balance, not for the sake of war or glory. There should always be a "need" to go to war. If you feel Arborea will suffer from this, maybe you should consider why the Asralites were removed from the city in the first place ;)

I also reiterate my "true" point. If the Asralites are Arborea, and vice versa, it seems like the Asralites are doing what is best for Arborea/Asral OOCly. What I mean by this is that they are avoiding potential IC conflict (through RP and PVP) and they let the Sathos inside their city making a somewhat (IMO) "bogus" IC excuse to keep them there. So what I mean is you guys are seemingly playing too "OOC minded".

Also I was trying to make the point that Asral -is- Arborea and Arborea -is- Asral (I see it this way because the Asralites control the laws and only Asralites can control the laws)... or at least that how it looks to me and a number of other players, correct me if I am wrong. You said Arborea will go to war only if it's vital interests are in danger, that's fine I guess I don't know Asral's true intent, but it doesn't seem like how an Asralite "might" act IMO. Asralites should be about honor and glory as much as a Tanielite is about law and order. I would personally like to see some more "fanatic" Asralites that might do a good job of fleshing out this "third side". It might even give the Asralites an identity of their own, as it stands it seems like a fairly politically boring guild which is why you might have taken up in Arborea in order to make the game more interesting for yourself.

If you feel anything I have said is not actually what an Asralite should believe in, perhaps you could enlighten everyone with exactly how a "perfect Asralite" might be played IYO?
Nathan wrote: In the meantime the Asral codex has been changed - balancing the battlefield is no longer the Asralites main purpose, they are more a thrid force, besides light and dark.
Hah seems like the Asral codex changes more than Asralites change their underwear =D.
Nathan wrote: Please Clarify here - Why do you mean that the Asralites seek peace? Because they avoided a war against Elvandar? Or why?
It seems like they -mostly- avoid war in general. They want peace for Arborea instead of fighting a war for their freedom. If you aren't at war, you are at peace? Is this wrong to assume?

I've thought it was -very- funny how in Arborea's history they fought against the Sathos Insects and were almost destroyed by them. So they desperately fought back against them to keep the Sathos from destroying their city. What is the case now? The Asralites roll over, let the Sathos inside because they "obey laws" (which IMO should never be believed IC, which is why I argued earlier that it seems like you are doing what is best for Arborea OOCly with an OOC mind and not considering that the Sathos might be doing bad things behind closed doors) all the while insect attacks still happen time after time and the Sathos are not at all blamed for it (this is hugely incorrect IMO).

It seems like a -huge disparity- from past to present. IMO
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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#11 Post by Delia » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:24 pm

Having been a long time balancer of the scales and involved in...erm...stuff the stuff of shadyness is made of I can say that depending on the approach...Zhakrinites can easily fall into the category of Lilith spawn very easily if one takes the pro-active approach when it comes to balance. Even more so if your character is less than very subtle and cannot conceal emotions like a thurach. These are the guys shadows are made of and should always loom out there, somewhere, always just out of sight. Experts of manipulation who do not express NOR experience any delight from their task. They merely do their solemn duty, quietly and with as little blood spilled as possible while maintaining a high degree of personal integrity which is the main point that separates them from Lilithians.

Then there are the introspective mystics who mainly focus on how inner balance manifests in the outer balance. There is balance and there is balance, after all. This lot might not, or might lift a finger but primarily react to shifts of balance.

Common worshipper, the primary kind, shows more thought than action when it comes to issues of the world and is usually interested in atleast one craft which is done in honour of Zhakrin(who has bee referred to finding pleasure from the craftsmanship of the dwarven folk). They might mutter stuff like "things happen because things happen" and shrug it off and display great aloofness regarding great struggles that blaze with heated passion.

This is how I found the Great Zhakrin Experience when D fooled around.
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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#12 Post by rex » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:27 pm

luminier wrote:
Nathan wrote: Please Clarify here - Why do you mean that the Asralites seek peace? Because they avoided a war against Elvandar? Or why?
It seems like they -mostly- avoid war in general. They want peace for Arborea instead of fighting a war for their freedom. If you aren't at war, you are at peace? Is this wrong to assume?

I've thought it was -very- funny how in Arborea's history they fought against the Sathos Insects and were almost destroyed by them. So they desperately fought back against them to keep the Sathos from destroying their city. What is the case now? The Asralites roll over, let the Sathos inside because they "obey laws" (which IMO should never be believed IC, which is why I argued earlier that it seems like you are doing what is best for Arborea OOCly with an OOC mind and not considering that the Sathos might be doing bad things behind closed doors) all the while insect attacks still happen time after time and the Sathos are not at all blamed for it (this is hugely incorrect IMO).

It seems like a -huge disparity- from past to present. IMO
I agree with what Luminier has said. I try to wrap my head around how Arborea can be destroyed by Insect on a regular basis (insect are from sathony as far as I know) and still let Sathony beings into there city. IG you would think we would say Sathony is killing all our people so we don't want Sathony allowed near us.

Coming up with the notion that they follow the laws as far as the judge can tell is a sad and lame excuse to let them in there city given there rich history and terrible track record in the past ICly. They're goblinoids for god sake!\

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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#13 Post by Nathan » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:05 pm

luminier wrote:Ill start by saying that Luminier will not team with Asralites but I have never cited what you said as the reason =P. It is as Allurana said, we've always been rivals, it isn't just what you mentioned but it is a small part of it. I am truly sorry if you feel that my RP has somehow ruined your ability to play your character -or- how you think you should play it. I am of the belief that the codex is destined to fail because it fails to recognize that not everyone may want to team with the Asralites.
Absolutely agreed, I mean I already wrote that Lumis arguments are totally reasonable - if I used a wrong argument, please excuse.
luminier wrote:You have said there is no need for Asralites to go to war. I argue that Asralites should always be at war or striving to achieve glory in order to differ themselves from Zhakrinites. As it stands they seem almost no different from the Zhakrinite Clergy who (presumably) would work to achieve balance for the sake of balance, not for the sake of war or glory. There should always be a "need" to go to war. If you feel Arborea will suffer from this, maybe you should consider why the Asralites were removed from the city in the first place ;)
Hmm, I mainly said there is not need for Arborea to go to war - this is a huge difference. The Asralites are not Arborea, and vice versa, they just hold a hand on it. You maybe might compare it with the Tanielites and Elvandar before the council, or so?
Considering the Asralites and War - I think that they are currently busy with trying to sort things out internally, it is - at least for me - more compliciated than you might assume at first glance to play that guild consistent with a new codex, new goals and such - things sometimes just need time to develop.
Considering the reasons why the Asral guild rooms have been moved out of town - my point is here, lets maybe just accept the game setup like it is? There is also a reason why the crusader castle is not in Elvandar City, I guess.
luminier wrote:I also reiterate my "true" point. If the Asralites are Arborea, and vice versa, it seems like the Asralites are doing what is best for Arborea/Asral OOCly. What I mean by this is that they are avoiding potential IC conflict (through RP and PVP) and they let the Sathos inside their city making a somewhat (IMO) "bogus" IC excuse to keep them there. So what I mean is you guys are seemingly playing too "OOC minded".
The position of Arborea considering sathos is a direct consequence of ingame politics - I personally can't see much ooc-bleeding here.
luminier wrote:Also I was trying to make the point that Asral -is- Arborea and Arborea -is- Asral (I see it this way because the Asralites control the laws and only Asralites can control the laws)... or at least that how it looks to me and a number of other players, correct me if I am wrong. You said Arborea will go to war only if it's vital interests are in danger, that's fine I guess I don't know Asral's true intent, but it doesn't seem like how an Asralite "might" act IMO.
Hmm, same thing, Arborea is a Domain - its interestst are simple: Safety for Citizens and Travellers, an acceptable level of living, innner and outer integrity, and such - The Clergy of Asral has to keep both in mind, the Interests of Arborea and the interests of the guild - and we also made a lot of progress I mean.
luminier wrote:The Asralites roll over, let the Sathos inside because they "obey laws" (which IMO should never be believed IC, which is why I argued earlier that it seems like you are doing what is best for Arborea OOCly with an OOC mind and not considering that the Sathos might be doing bad things behind closed doors) all the while insect attacks still happen time after time and the Sathos are not at all blamed for it (this is hugely incorrect IMO).
1.) I cannot see a reason why "trusting" a char should be bad RP or so, we do have an ingame legal system, and it is used, no?
2.) Nobody says that Arbborea "loves and welcomes" the Sathonites, I would mean, their presence is the price for other advantages, like in every contract

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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#14 Post by adanath » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:08 am

I'd have to go with Lumi on some of this stuff. The idea that any city besides Asador openly allows ghouls into it, is seemingly a wish for damnation. I don't really see how it can even be roleplayed that well. This isn't a post-modernistic society, but then it happened in the past, and consequences happened for it as well.

It would be one thing if it was more tolerance of evil guilds that can hide the depths and reaches of their evil, but in no way are the Current Crusaders even an opposite side of the coin to Sathos. They torture, sure, and burn and kill (pretty much right now mainly ghouls, undeads from hell and such). However, that which they oppose is blatantly evil right now (they don't have enough strength to even consider the more *grey* areas as seen within neutral perspectives. With Sathonys, There is no, oh, well if they obey the laws they are ok to have around, just so they don't kill us, especially considering the idea of Sathonys and his hatred towards Asral even for taking the humans under his wing. The fact that we aren't talking about nice little evil people, but people carrying around chained giants, and ogres, along with being ghouls themselves, with no souls sold to the god who sends insects and undeads from hell to try and destroy every living thing in forostar is somewhat farfetched to me as well. However, I believe all such things can be dealt with IC, and it is fun as well.

Even within Zhakrin, these are things sent from Hell which even wish to destroy Zhakrin's own creations, as evidenced in earlier battles against dwarves and humans.

I understand a concept of neutrality, chaotic, lawful etc, however this I believe is playing a bit loose, but then I don't have a deep philisophical viewpoint established with an Asral or such character.

There are certainly times when fear overcomes, and a people establish and willfully live under unbelievable evil (that has shown it's course in the history of the human world), but these are not honourable warriors who would fight to the death. These are oppressed citizens, not a city living within a Theocracratical Iron-fisted rule (which yes Elvandar was, but no longer is). I am not sure how it is internally played, but I am sure it will lend to some interesting roleplay as the evil that wishes to destroy all life, and specifically enslaved humanity, eats them, and sends Insects fairly often to destroy them continues as the architects of humans demise roaming their own city.

A few years ago the thieves had nearly totally swallowed Elvandar, the Queen worked together with Holy guilds in order to rid Elvandar of the thieves who were performing quite evil actions, then hiding them. Such things are fun, and make turning points in the game, timeline events if you will.

Just to be clear, this is another side I don't have a full purview of as I am not actively playing an Asral or such (I try to concentrate on one side in a mud, so I don't have conflicting interests). This is one thing that happens within the mud cyclically that I have never really understood.

I love it when the evil guilds are the most powerful, and most dangerous. That generally is how evil works, others that don't have the depths of such evil are not so diabolical, so evil at it's deepest, more dangerous end. Such diabolical evil hides in the shadows, striking strong and swiftly (this is actually the only mud I have ever played on the good side), it takes banding together of those that are good and many times even neutral to drive back the most dangerous of evil.

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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#15 Post by Nathan » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:44 am

adanath wrote:[...]The idea that any city besides Asador openly allows ghouls into it ... [...]
Thats maybe the reason why they are not allowed to Arborea as Ghouls

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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#16 Post by mazarmormuk » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:46 am

first of all, i must say i havent read it all, so excuse if things have been said already :)

for me, zhakrin and asral differ through in position.
while zhakrin stays passively neutral and cares more of his own neutrality or inner balance, Asral is actively interrested in a greater worlwide balance and takes opposition to all extremes. Zhakrin stays maybe more on the black and white, while asral tries to reach some gray or color. In a picture of high peaks (good) and deep valleys (evil), zhakrin would stay living in the foothills, while asral would try to fill the valleys with the rocks of the high peaks maybe.

Zhakrin would be the one not interrested in war, where Asral is.
The current roleplay of asrals searching peace on nearly every price with elvandar was a well considered ic tactic to work against fanatics without getting dragged into the evil position again.
however, a positive and reaching war for asrals is ironically hard to get.

For the general roleplay of asrals you might have noticed we have tried several possibilities in the game that could work out well, and i am open for every suggestion.
the mercenary status failed.
the supporting the weak side status failed.
the stay neutral and dont care status is imo zhakrinite and not the way i ld like to see it.

the position i could try is a separated position not in the middle between white and black (where i would place zhakrin), but in opposite to both on a third position of a triangle, which would be the position against extremists telling you that the end justifies every means.

The maybe biggest problem there is that the karma system is linear and doesnt really allow that roleplay (a war against elvandar would drag our own karma into deep black and make our miracles nearly useless, with the result that we ld lose that war -as an example)

Also i think Asral should freely attack the stronger side and balance the mud without meanings of supporting the weaker side, but out of own interrests.

As said, this isnt really easy and high risk (sathos are made strong enough to stand against an elvandar party of 4-5 other guilds, elvandar is a strong party of maybe 4-5 guilds, and asral clerics is one not really big group only, which would have to fight both others to stay neutral).

about adanaths note i must say that yes, the dark side evil, and ghouls, yes.
What differs pretty much for an asralite is that the side of light is not the good side, but is (nearly) as evil as the dark side is, as they torture/steal/murder/kidnap/condemn/controle out of (for an asral) rediculous reasons.

so we currently have to find the decision if we either fight both or noone.

only one thing to add.
Arborea isnt the Asral clerics.
maybe the situation could be discribed that the judge takes care of inner arborean safety, while the warclerics are meant to take care of the worldwide circumstances.

adanath
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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#17 Post by adanath » Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:07 pm

mazarmormuk wrote:first of all, i must say i havent read it all, so excuse if things have been said already :)

for me, zhakrin and asral differ through in position.
while zhakrin stays passively neutral and cares more of his own neutrality or inner balance, Asral is actively interrested in a greater worlwide balance and takes opposition to all extremes. Zhakrin stays maybe more on the black and white, while asral tries to reach some gray or color. In a picture of high peaks (good) and deep valleys (evil), zhakrin would stay living in the foothills, while asral would try to fill the valleys with the rocks of the high peaks maybe.

Zhakrin would be the one not interrested in war, where Asral is.
The current roleplay of asrals searching peace on nearly every price with elvandar was a well considered ic tactic to work against fanatics without getting dragged into the evil position again.
however, a positive and reaching war for asrals is ironically hard to get.

For the general roleplay of asrals you might have noticed we have tried several possibilities in the game that could work out well, and i am open for every suggestion.
the mercenary status failed.
the supporting the weak side status failed.
the stay neutral and dont care status is imo zhakrinite and not the way i ld like to see it.

the position i could try is a separated position not in the middle between white and black (where i would place zhakrin), but in opposite to both on a third position of a triangle, which would be the position against extremists telling you that the end justifies every means.

The maybe biggest problem there is that the karma system is linear and doesnt really allow that roleplay (a war against elvandar would drag our own karma into deep black and make our miracles nearly useless, with the result that we ld lose that war -as an example)

Also i think Asral should freely attack the stronger side and balance the mud without meanings of supporting the weaker side, but out of own interrests.

As said, this isnt really easy and high risk (sathos are made strong enough to stand against an elvandar party of 4-5 other guilds, elvandar is a strong party of maybe 4-5 guilds, and asral clerics is one not really big group only, which would have to fight both others to stay neutral).

about adanaths note i must say that yes, the dark side evil, and ghouls, yes.
What differs pretty much for an asralite is that the side of light is not the good side, but is (nearly) as evil as the dark side is, as they torture/steal/murder/kidnap/condemn/controle out of (for an asral) rediculous reasons.

so we currently have to find the decision if we either fight both or noone.

only one thing to add.
Arborea isnt the Asral clerics.
maybe the situation could be discribed that the judge takes care of inner arborean safety, while the warclerics are meant to take care of the worldwide circumstances.

Thanks, that was a good read. I think it can make things confusing in times like these where good side extremism has almost dissapeared just because the more extremist things aren't being done because of the heavy presence of extremist evil. So torture of orcs and ghouls yes, perhaps, although seeking out every thief, and all those other things have somewhat fallen to the wayside in an all out attempt to try and stop evil from swallowing Forostar.

It is very difficult to even place Asral in my mind many times, so reading the things here help me as a player as well. :)

Drayn
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Re: Asralite vs Zhakrinite roleplay - A question

#18 Post by Drayn » Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:18 pm

For me Zhakrin is a crafter without a conscience. It (neither he nor she rememeber) doesn't give a rats ass what its creations get used for. It makes a sword, the sword is all it cares about, not whether the sword is being used to kill goblins or baby elves. Zhakrin I see as almost Vulcan like. Everything is logic, it either is or isn't.

I also see the religion being deeply pragmatic. Why make another sword when you already have one? Things are created when the need arises. Something gets damaged, it is replaced so you always have just 1 sword. Satisfy needs, not wants.

The only thing to strive for is excellence. A zhakrinite smith become a smith to become the best smith they possibly can be. They don't do it to become rich (though that may happen), nor do they do it to change the world.


As to the Asral, Arborea, Sathonys discussion....bleh, I don't think that'll ever go away :D

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