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Use of Mercenaries

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Allurana
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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Allurana » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:18 pm

Phelan wrote:That's what mercenaries are for, doing the dirty work for money, no questions asked.


That's not the problem. The problem is offline PKing. PCs would like to interact, fight, or RP with other PCs, not just regularly be killed by proxy traps and that's it.

EDIT:
And for the record, this is why I don't care for Crusader towers, either. So it's not just against the Sathos.

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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby fernao » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:22 pm

Was about to point at those in this context. Especially when you place them side by side so you need to run the gauntlet. But I won't complain.
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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby ganandorf » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:03 pm

fernao wrote:Was about to point at those in this context. Especially when you place them side by side so you need to run the gauntlet. But I won't complain.


Hehe totally true. I think the only reason that the sathonite traps are talked about more is that more people experience the side effects.
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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby delem » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 pm

Phelan wrote:It looks like I managed to make my point.

When someone else uses three mercs to attack Phelan, that is completely legit.

When medium to small sized chars use 3 mercs to reach high level player areas in order to mine, train or whatever, there is nothing wrong with it.

When an evil char uses mercs to kill people ... Oh my god!

Mercs need an overhaul, they are too powerful and don't encourage any team work.



I loved the way Jezz, Aragog and Kaspars played way more to be honest. As much as they hated it (from them complaining ooc how they get butt raped), they made it really fun at the same time at least in my opinion. Especially when the good side dominated the bad side for a long time way back in the day, overall did pretty well.

But now the tables have turned and the bad side clearly dominates the good side, and its the good characters that are crying out, and we're the ones complaining. It's just that the good characters seem to be more concerned about new players running into this kind of trap. Just blind killing really, and could even discourage them to play. Traps are fine, it was a tactic used by evil players a lot. Even if you leave your undead in places where you cannot look into, as much as we hate it, it's something we have to be careful for. Kind of blind killing still. But there is a huge uproar on how you set up this trap, and haven't even talked to anyone yet, just read all these comments, and the majority seems not very happy the way it's been played out.

And from your reply, it seems this trap was only made to make your point kind of thing rather than an IC motivated reasons. Merely wanted to point out how poAenima uses 3 mercenaries to get to places? You could have easily brought it up in the forums. Plus, no one said how its unfair when Sathonites uses mercenaries and that it needs an overhaul because of that.

Well anyways, from reading what others commented, and what I'm taking it in of all this since I clearly wasn't there, it just seems to be a move that is highly frowned upon. It sucks to die, sure, but it sucks because there was no chance to live (I don't even know if both exits were blocked to be honest) while you were able to sit idle somewhere and let it happen.
Last edited by delem on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby rex » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:08 pm

Phelan wrote:Why shouldn't the merc block? I am paying him to do it, so he will do it.


No problem here.

Phelan wrote:The undeads don't attack certain mercs, when they are part of the masters team, else undead attack them.


No problem here if you are in the room protecting them.

When you leave the room (which is the example I am using and others have used) there is nothing preventing the undeads from attacking the mercenary. In my view, the undeads will autokill the mercenary when you leave the room. Why wouldn't they?

And yes, I know your argument is, 'but they are in my team'. The reason the undead does not autoattack the mercenary is because it is in your team. But you are not present in the room. You are not even online. How can you argue that they are in your team if you are not even playing.

Undeads auto attack individuals (NPCs and players) automatically if they do not worship Sathony (atleast that's what I have seen, correct me if I am wrong). As soon as you leave the room you should no long be viewed as in a team with the mercenary in the eyes of the undead and they should autokill it. Simple as that. I can see the uses of mercenaries if you are online and active but you are simply abusing the code when you log off and leg them do your dirty work.



And fernao, i don't see how crusader watchtowers is relevant here so lets try and stay on topic. Well Fernao, yes it is the same such that you can kill a player while not even being online, but watchtowers aren't a trap. As a matter of fact, you can even see them from a room over, so you can expect it. Lets try to keep this focused and not drag it back to crusader watchtowers please and thanks :)

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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby ganandorf » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:18 pm

Everyone should keep in mind that being a sathonite sucks. You're playing on a side of the game that has at most 2 active players, on the odd day there will be more.

And also that we're lucky someone at all is playing the evil side, if no one did the game would go stagnant.
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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby rex » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:29 pm

I think I should clarify because my post sounds a bit harsh. I don't care about balance at all. I have no problem with Sathonites setting up traps everywhere. Its fun and makes the game a lot more challenging for me. It also makes sense IG why you would do this.

I just think that it is unfair you can turn your traps where we can escape into death traps where we cannot escape while you are not online.

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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Allurana » Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:49 pm

delem wrote:I loved the way Jezz, Aragog and Kaspars played way more to be honest.


To be fair to the current generation, the past generation you just mentioned did the exact same things the current generation is being accused of doing, just in different ways.

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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Delia » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:08 am

A delicate subject as evil is "supposed" to use underhanded and unfair methods as anything goes, really. There is a very fine line what is unfair and what is not and even if it is unfair, is it okay or not.

I think the most important thing is to keep your emotions in check and try to cool down. The player behind the other character goes through very similar stuff you do as well. Try to remember that.

This said, most evil characters have constantly deal with multiple assaults from every direction as the moment you declare your intentions, the word gets around and people. Ome a-buzzing around the vicinity of your evil intentions. Those people easily include a tshahark, a priest and perhaps a mage and an archer among other things. So being solo at that point can kinda suck if you have the "wrong" attitude.

Forgetting player placed traps, death traps and whatnots, you can easily log in only to be pummeled down by a horde of npc dark elves. This has happened :) While there is little you can do against rotten luck, what you can do is prepare yourself against the one you have offended. Especially if you know that one can place dead meat with killing intent on your door step it might be prudent to look before you leap. There are many, many tools even for the "mundane and common" character to use.

Personally I like the undead and the fact that they are used most deviously. We cannot just assume the priests responsible are always conveniently there for us to maim and kill after we have prepared our best attacks. There was atleast a theoretical chance for escape in this particular instance what I understood of it.

My grievance is with exits that cannot be used in combat at all or which completely block scouting and lead into places such as the death valley slope. It is alright for things to be unfair as hell if you only FEEL that you have a chance. No matter how small. Not feeling that can kinda suck.

As for the teaming bit Zehren mentioned, I would have to agree there.

All IMHO and all that.

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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby luminier » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:11 am

arxthas wrote:Might as well just add that I agree with Zehren on the teaming thing. It's entirely OOC and doesn't make much sense if you take it as real in game. A "team" is a group of people standing near eachother or working with eachother and so. There's no mystical, invisible cloud involved.



Ill just reiterate this because I think it's important. Teaming is an OOC mechanic not an IC truth.

@phelan using mercenaries in the way you used them is wrong and you know it. You are using the OOC knowledge that the mercs won't just leave after getting nervous from your undead breathing down their necks. I don't care how much someone "paid" me to do a job IC, if you leave me standing around undead to guard an area, I am going to say screw this and go boozing and whoring.

It's what Zehren alluded to and what Arxthas stated.
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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby louis » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:25 am

1.) The usage of mercs in this example
There is no OOC-wise abuse of mercs in this matter - Mercs are supposed to do a job for you for a decent amount of money. And of course, the defininition of what has to be done within this contract and where depends on the char hiring them. Arguments like - the merc should go home - the undeads should kill this merc - and so on, are, sorry here, constructed - they also don't go home when you order them to sit ant wait somewhere. So, no 'abuse' of ooc-mechanics here imo.

2.) Teaming mechanics
'Teaming' and the mechanics behind is and always has been treated as IG on a broad base (also see laws like 'Teaming with Outlaws' and such....). Declading them now as OOC does not meet the ingame reality.

3.) Traps and Trapping people
If you set a bought trap somewhere, if you create a watchtower (which follows the same principle and also _can_ kill people), also when you build or dig a trap (soon), all these traps will not vanish on logout. So, I cannot see any reason, why a trap set up with npc's and undeads - an ambush - should vanish on logout. No abuse here, I also cannot imagine that all crussaders will remove the watchtowers they built before logout.

4.) Fairness
The trap was built at a very specific location to hit a clearly defined group of chars - it has not been built infront of Elvandar or so, just to mention - so, where is the unfairness? I cannot see any unfair thing if an evil guy uses his possibilities - that is his job I mean! Considering the lost equipment, of course there are ingame ways to recover it, you just need a team to do the task.


Of course I can understand all objections, I also can understand that dying to such an ambush is not very funny - but it is not abuse - as long as hiring a merc is not defined as abuse.

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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Zehren » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:35 am

louis wrote:2.) Teaming mechanics
'Teaming' and the mechanics behind is and always has been treated as IG on a broad base (also see laws like 'Teaming with Outlaws' and such....). Declading them now as OOC does not meet the ingame reality.


Sins of the ancestors!

Avoiding using the teaming mechanism to avoid repercussions from being overt friendly with enemy gods, byspel, has been talked of as OOC abuse before, unless I mismember. If teaming be an IC thing, how could this then be OOC abuse?


As an aside, I have no trouble with traps, trapping, ambushes, or covertly killing others (even if offline, because offline is an OOC thing.) My objections to this specific situation lies in the IC logic (usage of mercenaries) - as pointed out in earlier comment in this thread - and also with the teaming mechanism. ((That is, I have no problem with 3 or 4, but 1 and 2.))
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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby ganandorf » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:46 am

louis wrote:Of course I can understand all objections, I also can understand that dying to such an ambush is not very funny - but it is not abuse - as long as hiring a merc is not defined as abuse.


By the logic you apply in this comment, the following is not abuse: Setting up a revenant, two hill giant undead and 4 mercenaries in the same room, two mercs blocking an exit each. Even if this was placed on the road between Elvandar and Derring, on the main road, where there is that narrow canyon. Sure it wont be fun to die to it by whichever random person walks through it, but its NOT abuse is what you are saying.

You may argue that because it is on a main road and a non-targetted trap, that it may be abusive. But you said it yourself, as long as you can hire a merc it is not defined as abuse.

I think that example is sure too far, but still, it is where I completely disagree with you and where I think your answer falls through.

It's so very silly to compare undead and mercs to watchtowers, it is so very easy to escape from a watchtower and there is a warning one room away in every direction, include the same thing for revenants if you want to make it more fair.

Also trap setting is good, but setting up a trap that makes it impossible to escape from (mercs + undead) is so damn broken. I think phelan set up this specific trap to make a point, how cheap mercenaries can be esp. when used by the evil side, the fact that you do not think it is broken is just totally silly.
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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby louis » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:08 am

Hmm, lets say it this way: Some people might frown upon such a trap placed on a main road, targetting at anyone, but according to which definition should it be abuse?

The game already has mechanisms to make sure, that traps of this kind are very seldom.

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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Aslak » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:08 am

So it is fine for me to simply go and wait at newbie grounds and kill everyone I see there? (since I cannot kill anyone other then even weaker ones)
Such a trap does not care who walks into it and it was made impossible to escape, at least for a char my little size. I might have even died without all exist being blocked, some even twice, but I would maybe have at least a little chance.
Being forced to wait half an hour to watch my belongings from afar to be attacked again and left in the wild with all mana drained for roughly 45 mins, and thus unable to move as unable to scout or even call for help did not make the situation any more enjoyable. In the end, I just wasted an entire afternoon on this.
It might be a possible tactic, yes, it certainly works within the coded environment, but one might think it is not encouraged to do. Looking at the wizards comments here I might be wrong.

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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Aslak » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:12 am

louis wrote:The game already has mechanisms to make sure, that traps of this kind are very seldom.


I know little of those mechanics, but from what I see all you need is two undeads (not even revs) and two mercs. Both seems to come very easily. In this setup it might not kill the strongest chars, but from what I have seen at least half the mud population would die on such a trap.
To use Mercs blocking the way to rooms where you can hire them yourself is also somewhat an abuse, forcing you to either not take a merc or breaking the IG Laws of your domain and killing the blocking merc.

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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby arxthas » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:13 am

louis wrote:Arguments like - the merc should go home - the undeads should kill this merc - and so on, are, sorry here, constructed - they also don't go home when you order them to sit ant wait somewhere.[u]


The assumption that they will NOT kill this merc are just as "constructed" (whatever that means now - everything in the world is constructed). Just because the code happens to "support" that case does not mean it is the truth.

And I think there has been quite a couple of funny remarks lately on separation of IC/OOC. I am just not going to comment on that.
Last edited by arxthas on Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby ganandorf » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:18 am

louis wrote:Hmm, lets say it this way: Some people might frown upon such a trap placed on a main road, targetting at anyone, but according to which definition should it be abuse?

The game already has mechanisms to make sure, that traps of this kind are very seldom.


Unfortunately there is no strict definition by which this could be called abuse. it would have to be under "common sense" guidelines and wizard intervention in declaring what is fair and what is not fair.

A trap that offers no escape is unfair. The reason that traps and sathonites are brought together is currently they are the only ones that can set such deadly traps. If it were possible for Crusaders or any other guilds to set up traps that offer no escape, I would rally against that just as much as i rally against this. So in effect I am not rallying against sathonite powers, but rallying against these death traps, which due to importance of undead are almost CRUCIAL in sathonite play.
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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby arxthas » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:20 am

And for that matter, I do not care about fair vs unfair in this case either (the way it's been put forth, save newbies). Everyone is killing eachother as good as they can. I doubt anyone would be alot happier if those two mercs were two undead instead. Nor do I have a problem with being logged out since crussies got towers that do offline kills.

The sad part is in my opinion how it came to dominate the game. Every little technical detail of the code is used as an advantage/disadvantage in combat. Instead of thinking "roleplay first" and then see what comes out of that. Maybe PVP is a side-effect.

Now it seems like PVP first and then trying to come up with RP to justify what you are doing. This has the effect that everyone is very good at killing and does so exactly the right way. Even to the point of using these code details against the reality. But I am sure that things would automatically get more fair and balanced if there were more real reasons behind the killings. And the fact that this kill was made as some sort of way of demonstrating a forum argument against the use of mercenaries just screams OOC breach.

When it comes to "fairness in PVP" I'm all for a very simple rule: it's supposed to be fun for both sides. Get a feel for what the other player accepts and settle for that. If he is aggressive against you, you can be aggressive back. Anyway. Different topic.

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Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby ganandorf » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:26 am

I think its because different players settle for different things, is why people have to self-modulate in PVP and determine what is fun for everyone and not fun for everyone.

I play this game for PVP and getting my skills better so I'm better at PVP, the roleplay is just something I put up with.
Some players play the game for roleplay primarily, and getting skills up and PVP is something they put up with.

Which is why the good side sucks currently, their players are more the latter and not the former, and the bad side is doing so well currently, because their players are the former and not the latter (to be a sathonite you have to enjoy PVP > roleplay)
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