Vote for Our Mud on TMC!
 
 
Geas Home
 
Play the Game

Use of Mercenaries

Anything to say about roleplay? Want to share a story? This is the right place.

Moderator: Wizards

Aslak
Master
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:58 am

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Aslak » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:36 am

arxthas wrote:The sad part is in my opinion how it came to dominate the game. Every little technical detail of the code is used as an advantage/disadvantage in combat. Instead of thinking "roleplay first" and then see what comes out of that. Maybe PVP is a side-effect.


I have to agree with that. What I lately heard was on the same level. To use the new trap miracle together with the fire miracles to just burn away possessings, not even really caring who wins the fight as long as the other loosing things of worth.

I do not think that will create an environment where players will enjoy the game and respect each other. Of cause, it is as valid a tactic as those mercs. It is simply using what the code offers and what hurts the other the most.

Zehren
Champion
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:50 am

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Zehren » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:37 am

ganandorf wrote:I think its because different players settle for different things, is why people have to self-modulate in PVP and determine what is fun for everyone and not fun for everyone.

I play this game for PVP and getting my skills better so I'm better at PVP, the roleplay is just something I put up with.
Some players play the game for roleplay primarily, and getting skills up and PVP is something they put up with.

Which is why the good side sucks currently, their players are more the latter and not the former, and the bad side is doing so well currently, because their players are the former and not the latter (to be a sathonite you have to enjoy PVP > roleplay)


Yupsies. As thief, wanted thief RP, ended up with PVP. Was boring as noodles.
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada
Contact:

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby ganandorf » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:41 am

Aslak wrote:
arxthas wrote:The sad part is in my opinion how it came to dominate the game. Every little technical detail of the code is used as an advantage/disadvantage in combat. Instead of thinking "roleplay first" and then see what comes out of that. Maybe PVP is a side-effect.


I have to agree with that. What I lately heard was on the same level. To use the new trap miracle together with the fire miracles to just burn away possessings, not even really caring who wins the fight as long as the other loosing things of worth.

I do not think that will create an environment where players will enjoy the game and respect each other. Of cause, it is as valid a tactic as those mercs. It is simply using what the code offers and what hurts the other the most.


It all comes down to player respect. It's gotta be shown both ways. AKA you also have to respect that the sathonites sometimes have a hard time finding an equilibrium between boring themselves to death and doing nothing, to attempting to make the game interesting but getting complaints that theyre doing too well.
Meow

Aslak
Master
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:58 am

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Aslak » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:55 am

ganandorf wrote:It all comes down to player respect. It's gotta be shown both ways. AKA you also have to respect that the sathonites sometimes have a hard time finding an equilibrium between boring themselves to death and doing nothing, to attempting to make the game interesting but getting complaints that theyre doing too well.


I doubt setting up almost failproof deathtraps that kill for you is that much fun and entertainment either.
I have no trouble at all if Phelan would come after me in person and hunt me, I at least gave him a few reasons to do, and those times he did, he was always fair. I would still not pose him any trouble or danger, since he would need something like 15 seconds to knock me out.

But it is a different thing to walk into a trap that kills you failproof, then wasting two hours sitting around and watching your things from far, waiting for your mana return after getting mindblasted at the second assault and unable to scout and thus move even a single room as it could just be the next trap.

louis
Champion
Posts: 551
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:10 am
Location: The dark void

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby louis » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 am

Aslak wrote:[...]It might be a possible tactic, yes, it certainly works within the coded environment, but one might think it is not encouraged to do. Looking at the wizards comments here I might be wrong.

Don't get me wrong there, I did mainly refer onto the 'abuse' arguments mentioned in beforehand - and I only said it is no abuse to build such traps - Again, I am totally with you that dying in such a trap is not funny (how can it be?), same for recovering your stuff, but it is - right now - an aspect of the game. An annoying one? Doubtlessly.

But the problem is not that players '(ab?)use' existing options, the problem is that mercs and their possible usage needs to be reconsidered - but not especially to maybe avoid such death traps. The matter is imo more that they are - hmm - not compatible with game design in a wide range of aspects. E.g. making mercs in general weaker and slower again would solve this specific issue - and several other issues - quite nicely.

Phelan
Professional
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Phelan » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:31 am

Aslak wrote:... Being forced to wait half an hour to watch my belongings from afar to be attacked again and left in the wild with all mana drained for roughly 45 mins, and thus unable to move as unable to scout or even call for help did not make the situation any more enjoyable. In the end, I just wasted an entire afternoon on this.
It might be a possible tactic, yes, it certainly works within the coded environment, but one might think it is not encouraged to do. Looking at the wizards comments here I might be wrong.


One last comment from my side: This is not true. I took your stuff from the corpse and dropped it in the next room shortly after you died. Then you showed up and I did nothing. You suddenly start to request heavens fire, so I move to the next room. You follow, that is when I knock you out, shackled and mindblasted you. I took your stuff and released you at the amward cross and dropped your stuff there at the ground.
And if I had not dragged you out of there, you would have not been able to leave the place, since you had to pass the undeads and mercs.

Aslak
Master
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:58 am

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Aslak » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:24 am

Phelan wrote:
Aslak wrote:One last comment from my side: This is not true. I took your stuff from the corpse and dropped it in the next room shortly after you died. Then you showed up and I did nothing. You suddenly start to request heavens fire, so I move to the next room. You follow, that is when I knock you out, shackled and mindblasted you. I took your stuff and released you at the amward cross and dropped your stuff there at the ground.
And if I had not dragged you out of there, you would have not been able to leave the place, since you had to pass the undeads and mercs.


It had almost been half an hour after the dead to you arriving from what I recall. I scouted the area for help as ghost, went back to castle to get ressed, waiting here about 15 mins (one round of Mech Warrior Online) if Tarlon would show up, decided to watch my things from afar and go back and forth from the castle. It might not have been exactly so long, but it was a while.
But I want to make clear that I did not cast any miracle at you, as it would have been most stupid to do so without any equipment against a someone I could hardly scratch even fully prepared.
Also I do not want to attack you personally. I just do not find such traps any good or fun. For neither side. I had seen you as quite fair in the last incidents, even when my char really deserved to be made a head or two shorter.

Phelan
Professional
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Phelan » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:49 am

Well, another add on:

I hear so much talking about death trap without any chance to flee. This is simply not true. I won't discuss if you could have seen it or not, I usually look where I go especially when I expect trouble, and you guys have been warned by Phelan. He promised that the ambush would have consequences.

I will just name two ways that would have let you get out of there.

1. One simple darkness would have saved you. One of the mercs blocking was a halfling that doesn't see with 1 layer of darkness and you could have fled using that exit. I have taken this into account when choosing the mercs, because I know Asrals can use darkness and used it in the past to avoid undeads.

2. A kick and/or bodycheck would have thrown that halfling to the ground and you could have fled through that exit.

Yes, in the confusion of the surprise you might not have thought about it. But you could, therefore I don't consider it a deathtrap. A deathtrap would have been all these guys in an inside room with a single exit.

Aslak
Master
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:58 am

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Aslak » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:04 am

Phelan wrote:Well, another add on:

I hear so much talking about death trap without any chance to flee. This is simply not true. I won't discuss if you could have seen it or not, I usually look where I go especially when I expect trouble, and you guys have been warned by Phelan. He promised that the ambush would have consequences.

I will just name two ways that would have let you get out of there.

1. One simple darkness would have saved you. One of the mercs blocking was a halfling that doesn't see with 1 layer of darkness and you could have fled using that exit. I have taken this into account when choosing the mercs, because I know Asrals can use darkness and used it in the past to avoid undeads.

2. A kick and/or bodycheck would have thrown that halfling to the ground and you could have fled through that exit.

Yes, in the confusion of the surprise you might not have thought about it. But you could, therefore I don't consider it a deathtrap. A deathtrap would have been all these guys in an inside room with a single exit.


Might have been true for an expierenced char with an experienced players. I was at deaths door the moment I stepped into that room and just managed trying to flee and get blocked by the mercs and rev. The second round simply killed me.
As I stated somewhere before already, I might have died without the mercs as well from the bleeding even if I had escaped, but the mercs were just overkill, at least for one of my tiny size.

louis
Champion
Posts: 551
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:10 am
Location: The dark void

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby louis » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:45 am

So ... just to recap

Code: Select all

1.) Aslak encountered Phelan somehow?
2.) Aslak got warned that Phelan will take revenge?
3.) Phelan builds a trap just for Aslak (obviously)?
4.) Aslak runs into this trap - and dies as supposed and promised IG?
5.) Phelan also helps Aslak to recover this belongings?
6.) ... did I miss anything?

Hmm - soo - really, where is the issue? The two mercs? I mean, in all friendship, did you really expect that Aslak would find any way to get out of that again? He was doomed from the very beginning of this little episode I fear. Mercs or no mercs involved.

Zehren
Champion
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:50 am

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Zehren » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:50 am

"I WILL KILL YOU, SKIN YOU AND MURDER YOUR BABIES.

But I will hand you back all your possessions in a timely manner, I am not a *barbarian*."

IG PvP summarised XD
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

louis
Champion
Posts: 551
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:10 am
Location: The dark void

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby louis » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:52 am

Zehren wrote:"I WILL KILL YOU, SKIN YOU AND MURDER YOUR BABIES.

But I will hand you back all your possessions in a timely manner, I am not a *barbarian*."

IG PvP summarised XD

:P

Aslak
Master
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:58 am

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Aslak » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:09 am

louis wrote:So ... just to recap

Code: Select all

1.) Aslak encountered Phelan somehow?
2.) Aslak got warned that Phelan will take revenge?
3.) Phelan builds a trap just for Aslak (obviously)?
4.) Aslak runs into this trap - and dies as supposed and promised IG?
5.) Phelan also helps Aslak to recover this belongings?
6.) ... did I miss anything?

Hmm - soo - really, where is the issue? The two mercs? I mean, in all friendship, did you really expect that Aslak would find any way to get out of that again? He was doomed from the very beginning of this little episode I fear. Mercs or no mercs involved.


I am not sure, but I have my doubt I was the prime target for that trap. And if I was, such mercs would not be needed to kill me, nor such a lousy trap.

User avatar
Allalltar
Master
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Allalltar » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:13 am

I've been coding for this mud over a decade now ( with breaks ) and reading threads like this is simply disheartening. I'll throw a few thoughts in, for you to consider and maybe think over what you claim here:

- As louis said, running into a trap like this is NEVER fun. You are annoyed, you are angry, even pissed. You want to rip the a** right open who did that. And all your equipment is there too. Damn it. Maybe you were even not careful. Even more annoying, cause you are angry at yourself too.
- Most of the uproar is happening, in my opinion, from having it happen to you or having in a situation where you could be affected. Geas is a dangerous place. The other side has similar experiences when 7 goodies go to hunt a single evil char. Not the same ? Well, try fighting seven medium to high-level opponents. You'll not get out.
- Feeling angry that mercenaries are used in this way? Should feel angry at watchtower being used that way too. Feeling angry that golems are used in this way too. Yet you are not. Why ?

Aslak wrote:So it is fine for me to simply go and wait at newbie grounds and kill everyone I see there? (since I cannot kill anyone other then even weaker ones)


It is definitely NOT okay to kill newbies and we'll keep a close track on people who do. I assume that this statement was made of anger and not meant to be made real.

Aslak wrote:Such a trap does not care who walks into it and it was made impossible to escape, at least for a char my little size. I might have even died without all exist being blocked, some even twice, but I would maybe have at least a little chance.


Of course, a group of undead is a big challenge even for an experienced Char, even more so with a revenant present. As does walking into a group of giants, or thurses, or a wolf if the char is small enough. Blocking increases the severity of the situation, but as stated above, there might've been ways to escape the situation.

Aslak wrote:It might be a possible tactic, yes, it certainly works within the coded environment, but one might think it is not encouraged to do. Looking at the wizards comments here I might be wrong.


There's a difference between 'not encouraged' and 'forbidden'. There's no encouragement to go around and place such traps on a regular basis. But there's currently nothing forbidding the specific use of it either.

My real gripe is, is this really a satho trap problem? How would this situation been different, if due to an event, 12 insects would've ganged up ? Or five orcoths ? A group of trolls ? Because a player put them there and not a wizard? Geas is a very dynamic game. You should be expecting to run into trouble wherever you thread as soon as you leave a city. There's no guarantee that you'll always only find orcs at the orctower and always just goblins in the goblin camp. The game doesn't work like that.

And last but not least, I would wish to reiterate something Delia said:

Delia wrote:I think the most important thing is to keep your emotions in check and try to cool down. The player behind the other character goes through very similar stuff you do as well. Try to remember that.

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada
Contact:

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby ganandorf » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:33 am

It seems some of the facts were confused as to whether or not escape was possible. So when i say "no chance for escape" I will mean all exits blocked and only way to get through getting lucky with a bodycheck.

"Should feel angry at watchtower being used that way too. Feeling angry that golems are used in this way too. Yet you are not. Why?"

The big difference here is that watchtowers do not block exits, neither do golems. Like I've stated i don't care about revenent and two ghouls being placed in an area, but when the exits become blocked and there is "no chance for escape" then I think it is somewhat unfair.

Maybe for such powerful things such as golems created by the mages, and revenants, there should also be something visible from the next room over this may save some grief in the future?

Also if a wizard were to put me in an unbeatable situation such as 5 orcoths that are blocking the exits and "no chance" for escape, I would be upset as well :(
Meow

adanath
Champion
Posts: 505
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:36 am
Location: Lynchburg, VA

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby adanath » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:41 am

I just want to say,

I have been the target of many traps...many many traps..many sathos want to kill me, and many times succeed. Sometimes they don't. The best thing to do is try to enjoy it, imagine it happening and then save the log and look back through it.

I do this, because I know that *almost* every time I die, there is something I could have done different that would have either made me the victor or made me survive.

I don't mind fighting a Satho 1v1 at all, that doesn't happen with me often, generally there are undead or something else in the front row or multiple ones of them..who can blame them..*if* I do land a hit, every time it is a chance they will die.

On the same sort because we don't know what kind of *trap* we coulf be facing many times the good side takes large numbers. This sucks in the same way for the bad side.

Take heart, the truth is right now there are a few very skilled evil players, that have a lot of experience, and others are mostly catching up. They do catch up and this is the exciting part of the pendulum..the drama oh the drama heh.

Point being it sucks to die and to have no chance, but always look back and try and see if something coul dhave been done different, learn from it, then blast em next time :)

User avatar
Allalltar
Master
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Allalltar » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:43 am

ganandorf wrote:It
Also if a wizard were to put me in an unbeatable situation such as 5 orcoths that are blocking the exits and "no chance" for escape, I would be upset as well :(


Well, you are not placed in the situation. The things are on a path, you can see them. Yet, if you follow the road, you'll end in them. You just don't expect them to be there, similiar with that trap. As I undersatnd it, the trap was not even hidden, it was in plain sight, it was just not looked in the room before moving in. And that's the part of the whole discussion I do not understand. And why I stated again, that GEAS is dynamic, not static. You can not assume something is there or not by using assumption as to how things are usually. You have to expect that there might be a group of trolls around the road, it's just very unlikely. Or 12 insects.

Also, Adanath, I agree totally.

louis
Champion
Posts: 551
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:10 am
Location: The dark void

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby louis » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:58 am

ganandorf wrote:Also if a wizard were to put me in an unbeatable situation such as 5 orcoths that are blocking the exits and "no chance" for escape, I would be upset as well :(

Oh! The game offers quite some very lovely locations that could meet this description - You are invited to explore them all one day, but no whining afterwards, ok? :)

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada
Contact:

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby ganandorf » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:04 pm

If your advice is to scout every exit before moving along every path that I walk, I'm afraid i wont have enough mana for that.

As well perhaps the adjacent room warning for crusader watchtowers should be removed (wasnt it added for just this reason? to avoid deaths?), or an adjacent room warning added for revenants or golems, that would make it more fair and avoid lots of future problems?
Last edited by ganandorf on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Meow

User avatar
Allalltar
Master
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Use of Mercenaries

Postby Allalltar » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:09 pm

ganandorf wrote:If your advice is to scout every exit before moving, I'm afraid I wont have enough mana for that.


No, nothing like that. But I want to have people be aware that they have to expect trouble far off the main cities. Not being suprised by that. All am saying

ganandorf wrote:As well perhaps the adjacent room warning for crusader watchtowers should be removed, or an adjacent room warning added for revenants or golems, just to even the field.


Something to be considered by the corresponding guild wizard of the Sathony Clerics.


Return to “Roleplay”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

cron