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Should Taniel punish lying priests?

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Phelan
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Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby Phelan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:47 pm

I was wondering what Taniel would think about his priests that frequently lie about a lot of things. Just to name a few examples:
P takes an guilditem from the corpse of S and hides it in the backpack. When asked about it, P denies haven taken it.
P claims to have been attacked by S, but they haven't met for weeks.
P claims S killed guard, patrol or whatever, which is not true.

Personally, I don't have any problems with that, if a Taniel wants to be a liar, it is his or her choice to play that way. But would Taniel, God of Order and Light, tolerate such a behaviour? What is your opinion?

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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby luminier » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:51 pm

In general, I think that a person should be able to play their character really anyway they want. If a Tanielite feels like lying, they'll lie. Since obviously there is no coded way to deal with this, you could just RP atoning for it later if your character would be bothered by it, or you could RP doing nothing at all because you are a corrupt Tanielite bastard.

I think if someone is constantly lying, they'll eventually get caught.

And another thing. If you can rationalize IC why you might lie, there might be "good reason" to. And it's really hard without a wizard setting in stone exactly what is acceptable and what is not.

IMO.
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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby ganandorf » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:29 pm

Theres no way to enforce it, so therefore players can do it.... But I think yes, Taniel would have a problem with that.

Everything a taniel cleric does is in the light of taniel, I imagine them to be those who cannot lie, cannot steal even a single thing, and must tell the truth 100% of the time.
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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby ghalt » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:54 pm

I'd guess a great deal of misplaced blame you get is due to being the boogeyman. If someone asks me who killed the patrol, guess #1 is gonna be you. (Sometimes, also, people have muddy recollections of events, even in fake fantasyland with loggers and such.)

If a taniel cleric WAS just bald faced lying, I think I'd expect them to rp corruption in some other ways rather than just lying opportunistically for fun and profit.

On the other hand, I don't remember if their codex actually mentions honesty at all. >_>

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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby Delia » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:28 am

How I personally feel about it is elves as a society should hold truth in greater esteem than humans do. Lies should be frowned upon but lies and half-truths could be used as a method of teaching.

Within an elven society lying could be perceived as a sign of weakness and as a sign of a sickness of the soul. I am not saying that elves would not absolutely never lie though. That would be plain silly. They just go about it more eloquently than flat out spawning lies for petty personal gain.

Taniel clerics are bit problematic as there is a lot of outside influence there. Elves seem to be the minority there which is a real shame. Outsiders could get away with it more as they are not expected to hold such high standards. With outsiders I mean non-elves even if they are Taniel clerics.

As for Taniel himself...I believe that there should be a point in which divine punishment is administered or some doors are closed. Lies fall more into the domain of his archenemy after all and true order is based on stability, not on claiming something is something other than it actually is. Breaking his order by changing that which is good and right is, should be, an offence.

While code cannot step in, a player can, for example, file a report about his devious lying ways and beg for divine punishment?
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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby glorfindel » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:02 am

A few thoughts on this.

- I agree with ghalt that I think a lot of stuff is attributed to our 'boogeymen' even though they have not commited it. I would also not be surprised if there are people out there trying to make things look like they were sathonite work ;)
- Taniel would, in my eyes, most likely be really pissed if one of his clerics constantly lies. One thing here and there he might overlook, but in general, Taniel wouldn't be too pleased about such behaviour. Devine Punishment as it sounds is impossible to get on the way, I think, without having potential for abuse.

As for how elves see truth and lies (even though I think this should be a separate thread), I agree mostly with delia, though I doubt elves would let others have lower standards (they are prideful bastards after all ;) ). I think, an elf would not lie, but he/she might withhold parts of the truth if this deemed useful.

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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby Zehren » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:41 am

I think that a Tanielite priest striving to uphold all ideals would not lie, no.

Would Taniel punish a lying priest if he discovered one? Most likely, methinks.
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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby Delia » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:25 am

Well I think discussing lying in general is relevant to this thread but I agree that discussing about society more can easily derail the thread.

With elves having lower standards for others I did not mean they condone it, only that other "lesser" races are more likely to show such weakness, fall from grace, etc from an elven point of view.
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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby Delia » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:32 am

That is...elven society should form around the values, principles and traits of its creator, the god Taniel. Elven behaviour should follow this tendency as well.

Of course one can do all the opposite things faster than one can day 'the Gift of Evren' but I think the basis should be there from which everything flows.
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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby adanath » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:06 pm

I think at the very least overtly lying is bad roleplay.

(One of the reasons I like the armour change is because I believe it will pull more elves into the clergy)

The Elven race tends to be a very proper race, aloof even, they are above such base motivations (although I could see more devious underworkings and of course evil ones), but Taniel is the creator of them, they make sense this way he is order.

In that way none of his clerics, elven or any race, I think would he like lying, it strikes against the very core of Taniel and it resonates as was mentioned above with the tendrils of Lilith.

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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby Delia » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:17 pm

I do not think that overtly lying is bad roleplay as an elf or/and as a Taniel priest. You just should not be surprised of the repercussions and at this point you might already be heading down that cliff.

I do however, think that it would be bad roleplay to overtly lie knowing that the code does not detect it and making player-based decisions to lie with your character. The character probably should have some feelings about lying and Taniel even if the game does not make it so.
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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby arxthas » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:19 pm

Phelan wrote:But would Taniel, God of Order and Light, tolerate such a behaviour? What is your opinion?


Nope.

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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby adanath » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:24 pm

Delia wrote:I do not think that overtly lying is bad roleplay as an elf or/and as a Taniel priest. You just should not be surprised of the repercussions and at this point you might already be heading down that cliff.

I do however, think that it would be bad roleplay to overtly lie knowing that the code does not detect it and making player-based decisions to lie with your character. The character probably should have some feelings about lying and Taniel even if the game does not make it so.


I meant more this rather than what I conveyed. Lying for a reason in game I an see..but repurcussions socially (within the elven people) and from a spiritual standpoint I think would at least or should at least be likely to happen.

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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby Drayn » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:29 pm

Hiya: Tanielite perspective.

Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Yes, yes he should. Asral should also punish cowardly priests and Sathonys should punish priests displeasing him (I dunno, patting puppies or something?). Lying is a sin against the virtue of Truth. The will of the gods is enacted by the clergies.

There ARE ways to deal with this in game, both coded and uncoded, demotion and expulsion being amongst the most obvious. The other (for Taniels) is condemning, which I think all clergies should get.

Why is this question being asked?

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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby adanath » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:32 pm

Drayn wrote:Hiya: Tanielite perspective.

Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Yes, yes he should. Asral should also punish cowardly priests and Sathonys should punish priests displeasing him (I dunno, patting puppies or something?). Lying is a sin against the virtue of Truth. The will of the gods is enacted by the clergies.

There ARE ways to deal with this in game, both coded and uncoded, demotion and expulsion being amongst the most obvious. The other (for Taniels) is condemning, which I think all clergies should get.

Why is this question being asked?


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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby Zehren » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:50 pm

Drayn wrote:Why is this question being asked?


No idea, really.

*Blatantly ignoring rethorical questions like a tuna.*
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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby ganandorf » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:57 pm

Drayn wrote:Hiya: Tanielite perspective.

Why is this question being asked?


Sounds like its being asked because a taniel cleric f*cked him up in game by lying about what he has/has not done.
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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby luminier » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:12 pm

Well the same question could be asked of anyone.

If war clerics run from a fight instead of dying like a true warrior in glory does asral punish them?

If sathonites obey the law and act nice to people in arborea, does Sathonys punish them?

ehhehe I love opening cans of worms.
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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby Delia » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:08 pm

Asrals dying needlessly means weaker warriors in general and in all around Asral wimpyness which is hugely counter-productive and Asral cannot afford such loss of face when boasting to the other gods :) If the death serves a purpose and has an air of drama attached it is all well and good. Just throwing yourself for scrags to feed for no other purpose than that they just were there is just plain unwanted. The line between cowardice and a planned retreat can be a thin one though :D

I have never imagined Sathos as a chaotic lot nor them having trouble with the idea of laws. Infact, having undead around shows a lot Taniel-like orderliness with things line a master and servant having their proper places. Nor does Sathonys directly oppose Taniel, Old Boney is just jealous that Big T had the great idea of having followers before he did.
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Re: Should Taniel punish lying priests?

Postby Allurana » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:56 pm

I've always pictured Sathonys similar to Taniel in that he values law and knowledge, except Taniel takes it from the goody-two-shoes angle, and Sathonys takes it from the ne'er-do-good angle.


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