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A role playing mud?

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mab
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A role playing mud?

Postby mab » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:49 am

I don't think so!

The only roleplay that most people seem to be capable of is

x enters
x nods politely
x leaves (of course before anyone has a chance to respond)

Unless there's a nodding dog guild that I've not heard of, I don't understand how that is roleplay. It is better though than the people who enter a room with someone in it and just totally ignore that person.

All I can find here is a hack and slash mud. It makes a pretty good h&s mud and has some interesting places to explore but it's not really what I was looking for.

I'm sad. Geas looks like a decent mud (and I seem to remember having fun here 10 years or so ago) but now it seems to be spoiled by its players.
Last edited by mab on Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

ferranifer
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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby ferranifer » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:18 pm

Hmm, have you tried hanging out at the right places?

Elvandar market, for example, it's a pretty good place to be if you're after casual conversation.

It might seem that a lot of people is really busy all the time, and that would be correct. That doesn't mean that they don't have their own RP stuff going on, it's just that you're not part of it. It is very unlikely that people will stop and talk to you if they don't know you, specially if they're busy. That's when you get the 'nod'. Now, some people are more prone to hang out and start a RP session in the middle of nowhere than others, but your chances are higher if you simply drop by the places that are commonly used as the 'kickstarters' of RP. With time, you will develop the relationships that will allow you to be part of bigger RP circles and get involved in more stuff, stuff that happens every day for the vast majority of the mudbase.

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Sairina
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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby Sairina » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:57 pm

She's got a point though. And I can't say that I'm not guilty of this a lot of the time, because I'm not the greatest roleplayer, but I'm not into *just* hack&slash either, and with its fantastic fighting system and allowed player kill (both of which are great things to have, don't get me wrong) this is a big thing in Geas that you just do. Not much to do for characters that don't want to fight, or maybe just want to fight in a supporting role. There's merely the basis of a crafting system, the skald guild could be cool for non-fighter characters and ideal for roleplayers/sociable types, but there's no roleplay or character interaction happening there at all, as we all know. The Mages are unattainable for a young char, and all the other main guilds that would give your char a profession and purpose and a basis for roleplay are heavily PVP.

Also, why does roleplay have to mean sitting on a marketplace and chatting? Not that I mind that, but why _only_ that? That, or being at war and hunting enemies/being hunted, or very rarely having a romantic relationship with another char. That pretty much sums up most of the roleplay I have seen in Geas, and yet the most fun I had playing were situations outside of this.

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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby Drayn » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:51 pm

Next time you go shopping, make a note of how many strangers you strike up a conversation with. Make a note of how many people with clipboards you carefully skirt around. Random conversation doesn't tend to happen.

There are lots of ways to get an RP started and not all by talking to people. The boards have always been vital in some of the most involved RP I've seen. Being in the know helps. The "Hi how are you" "I'm fine, what are you up to?" "Nothing much" conversation is far too common and very likely if you're talking to a character you have nothing to say to. RP comes from first establishing a strong character concept and then playing it well. People looking to interact with that type of person, either positively or negatively, will eventually gravitate towards you.

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Sairina
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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby Sairina » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:24 pm

While I don't see an actual problem per se with anyone passing by a stranger on the street without acknowledging them, or with just nodding a greeting to a fleeting acquaintance - where this becomes a problem, is when you look at the standard response when someone's looking for roleplay, which ferranifer conveniently gave above - "have you tried hanging out on the marketplace?" Why is this the place to find roleplay?? It shouldn't be. Even an inn would be more likely, which is one step up from the marketplace in most cities, yet we're too lazy to enter there and sit on a chair by the fireside, even if it's raining cats and dogs outside - we buy our beer and take it out to the fountain. Is that roleplay? Really?

We do it because we want to increase our chance of running into someone to play with. The number of people available to interact with on Geas at any time is pretty limited - which if you want to roleplay, leads to you desperately talking to the first person passing by a marketplace where you just so happen to be waiting. Also, I'm fairly certain that the number of players behind those characters is even smaller.

On a MUD with many players, even if it isn't roleplay-enforced, the chance to run into someone you like to roleplay with is actually not that bad, just because of the greater number of people online at any one time, and often a larger number of things they might be pursuing in the game (guilds/factions/religions). In Geas, there's pretty much two cities - Elvandar and Arborea, plus Asador for a select few. In Geas, there's basically three religions - the good (Taniels/Crusade), the bad (Sathonys), and the ones who don't seem to care (Asrals, sorry). This limited selection of factions and guilds to join does limit roleplay options for characters. How many characters do you know that stand outside of this very basic handful of archetypes? Yes, there are a few, and they tend to be the most interesting characters, don't they? Now, what does the game offer to them, really, if they don't create it themselves? And from what you've seen, how would you say that most players here handle roleplayers that do make an effort to create stuff themselves and don't found their character on the game mechanics? Because in my experience, anything that seems to be "invented" is seen largely with suspicion. Which is not what I expect in a roleplaying enforced MUD, but seems to be very common in GEAS, and continues to annoy me.

For a classless MUD, GEAS is very black and white. You join a guild, your character is stuck with it for life. You don't join a guild, your character has very limited options for roleplay. You want to be a baddy? You worship Sathonys. How many lilithian characters do you think there are? How many characters do you think there are that are just not nice people, but don't worship either? You want to be a goody? You worship Taniel and join the clergy or the crusade. Evren is hardly an option outside of the crusade, because druids can't participate in PVP, and what else is there to do? Gwen has one hut and npc cleric, now that's not much of a religion, is it? How many people do you know that worship her? How many dwarves do you know that actually worship Zhakrin and don't convert to either Asral or Taniel, because they've got to join one of their guilds to get roleplay and PVP.

There's a reason people don't often roleplay Lilithian Baddies, Gwennie Goodies or Zhakrinite Dwarves. There's not much to do for them except sit and talk, they can't do anything PVP-wise on their own, and they won't find likeminded people to hang out with - and neither the game nor its playerbase reward them for their efforts in any way.
Have you ever tried to play someone as poor, ragged and starving? You can't. Because food and clothing is everywhere and is cheap, and on top of that people will hand you gold because they don't need it much anyway.
Have you ever tried to play a halfelf or tshahark as actually used to being persecuted and shunned? I know some people do, but I find it frustrating, because you can hardly ever play that out - nobody wants to play the nasty prejudiced human/elf. And if you do anyway, you're very much in danger of being confused for your character ooc, or at least being shunned yourself ic for actions and opinions that should be commonplace according to gamelore.
Have you ever tried playing an orphan in a world where everyone is brought back to life? How do you even explain that?
Have you ever roleplayed having a family, on the other hand? And I don't mean a partner in a relationship, I mean your parents, siblings, aunts and uncles, grandparents, cousins, whatever.

Now, obviously, I'm still here, and that's because GEAS is still the best MUD I know, and by far. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have its severe faults, or that its faults should be ignored/not adressed. Unfortunately though, I have no real ideas for how to fix this :(

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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby ferranifer » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:16 pm

I didn't mean to say that it is the only place. I also don't think it is the best place. But it IS the place where a new player will be most likely to find opportunities to RP. Definitely better than waiting for someone to show up at the Nibblers or the Arborea park and strike a random conversation with him/her (which a lot of us do and it really is as heavy-handed as the Elvandar gossip-place).

I also strongly disagree with your description of the (lack of) possibilities for RP in Geas, but I will just assume you just haven't had the chance to experience them, as some of them are not easily accesible. Your description of the RP environment of the game is almost as black and white as you claim the game to be, specially the importance you give to PvP. I haven't done any PvP for over 7 years, neither have the intention to do it and I'm doing just fine.

Now, there might be no option to play the character that YOU want to play as YOU imagined it, but that's simply a direct result of the environment, which you don't get to control. The game is a limited RP environment. There is no unlimited space for you to be whatever you want because sooner or later you're gonna hit the reality of the world, which dictates otherwise i.e.: religious prosecution or resurrection. In those cases, we have to do an effort to make sure that the characters we are bringing to life FIT with the world they live in. Until we can get unlimited code resources and game rules to adapt to everyone's vision of what the game environment should be, we will have to go with what we have. On top of that, not everyone agrees on what the World should be, which is one of the main reasons people frown upon those that come up with stuff that only works for their own vision of the world. I.e.: "I'm a rich noble merchant." No, you are not rich, and you are not a merchant either since nobody knows you.) You can BECOME a rich merchant if you want though.

Nothing is stopping anyone from playing a commoner, for example. I just imagine that most people will want to play some kind of heroic character of some sort. It's not a fantasy world simulator, it's a RP game. People will naturally want something more than than pure RP. They will want character progression, recognition of some sort, adventure and gossip. (To clarify, people should chase their heroic deeds WITHIN the limits dictated by RP, but that's a different story)

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Sairina
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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby Sairina » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:52 pm

Sitting on the marketplace may not be the only way to find Roleplay, but as you say, other ways tend to be less accessible to many players, which is exactly what I criticized above. And it is certainly _not only_ the advice given to newbies who might not know better places to go. The roleplaying fraction in GEAS has a _strong_ tendency to sit on the marketplaces for a lot of their playing time, simply because it is the main place to actually _encounter_ other characters.

I haven't done PVP in all my time on Geas and I don't intend to, and yes I'm still enjoying the game, but I also do think that some areas are lacking. I have also had great roleplay here, it is just not as common as I would wish it to be. Most of that is unfortunately down to the small playerbase, and thus hard to change. I was going on about the PVP because that is the area where the game mechanics really shine. Let's face it, the economy is rubbish. The crafting system is very basic. Magic is cool, but few players can actually experience it fully.

I'm actually happy with my characters as I conceived them, and they fit into the world just fine, thank you very much. Or at least they would fit into the world as the game lore describes it, the world I experience when playing tends to be a different one though. One where a racist human for instance would NOT fit it. Where a persecuted halfelf feels weirdly out of place. Where a tshahark will experience nothing but sympathy from all sides for having grown up in slavery, poor thing. Where a Zhakrin-worshipping dwarf is in the minority, not the rule. Now, I'm not saying that characters can't be unusual exceptions of the norm described in the game lore, but when all of them are it does get weird that I get told that my characters don't fit into the world (Sairina was an unusual exception because I started playing her with no idea of game lore, and I'm not really playing her anymore either).

Of course not everyone agrees on what the world should be, and if you come up with something completely crazy, of course people won't like it. But that is not what I'm talking about here. Someone could just go and roleplay a Zhakrin/Evren/Gwen priest, for instance. They exist, right? People tend not to like that kind of thing though. People ignore me when I roleplay having inherited a necklace from my grandmother, for heaven's sake. What's the actual harm? That someone happens to know the bloody thing is a custom item and therefore brandnew, despite it being described as an ancient rusty thing that's nearly falling apart, that is the kind of reaction I'm talking about that drives me crazy.

ferranifer
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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby ferranifer » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:06 pm

Oh, I didn't emphasize the YOU to refer to your characters Sairina, but to the characters that you, me or any other player of the game might consider their own creations. You can replace the YOU with an I in that sentence.

If people is reacting to you claiming that a custom necklace is a heirloom, they are metagaming. If someone wants to be a Zhakrin Cleric, they are out of context, because there is no organized Zhakrin Church in the game, only a shrine. If someone wants to play a Lilith Assassin.. they can just go ahead and do it. It's gonna be rough, very rough, but it is within the context of the world that the forces of good dominate most of the established civilizations (which you will want to interact with, I presume). It is unfortunate and undesirable (at least for me) that the game world is as polarized as it is, but well.. it is. It is also unfortunate that the world is so structured (guilds, churches, etc), but well, again, it is. You can claim to be whatever you want, but if you start involving organizations or backgrounds that you cannot demonstrate, people is just going to call your bluff. There has been no record ever of a Cleric of Zhakrin besides Thor... expect people to be at least sceptical about someone that claims to be one. It might eventually end up with the wizards coding a Clergy of Zhakrin, but until then...

I hope this illustrates my point.

Now, about characters seeking opportunities to RP. I agree that the stuff going on at Elvandar is rather ... meta. I agree that it really shouldn't be that way. I agree that we should all do our best to escape the trap of the lazy rendezvous that it represents... but I also has its function within the game. In this particular case, it might be just what po Mab needs to kickstart his/her character.
Last edited by ferranifer on Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Akulli
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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby Akulli » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:22 pm

I gave up the hack and slashing parts of the mud awhile ago. Now my character is mostly roleplay based with the odd orc murder once in awhile. Needless to say, a lot of the time I don't lack for role playing opportunities. But then again, I've gone to great lengths to try to make my character unique and interesting. Or at the very least fun. (As much as she can be. She still has her boring or predictable moments. Especially when I was just starting out with her or I'm multitasking, which I am guilty of...)

But, again, that's just my experience.
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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby Zehren » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:36 am

Sairina wrote:People ignore me when I roleplay having inherited a necklace from my grandmother, for heaven's sake. What's the actual harm? That someone happens to know the bloody thing is a custom item and therefore brandnew, despite it being described as an ancient rusty thing that's nearly falling apart, that is the kind of reaction I'm talking about that drives me crazy.


10/10, would laugh again.

Also, methinks there ARE more organised worship of all the deities than shown. Invisible NPCs.
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby fernao » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:35 am

A simple fact is that roleplay usually requires two people to do. And if one isn't in the mood for it, or has other roleplay planned, bad luck, you are out of the picture. And the nod is a friendly way of saying "I acknowledge your presence but have not time/intention to roleplay any further with _AT THE MOMENT_". If they have the ability, you often will also get a magical tell stating an ooc reason why they don't have time at the moment.
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luminier
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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby luminier » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:38 am

mab wrote:I don't think so!

The only roleplay that most people seem to be capable of is

x enters
x nods politely
x leaves (of course before anyone has a chance to respond)

Unless there's a nodding dog build that I've not heard of, I don't understand how that is roleplay. It is better though than the people who enter a room with someone in it and just totally ignore that person.

All I can find here is a hack and slash mud. It makes a pretty good h&s mud and has some interesting places to explore but it's not really what I was looking for.

I'm sad. Geas looks like a decent mud (and I seem to remember having fun here 10 years or so ago) but now it seems to be spoiled by its players.


I think your problem is not uncommon. People here tend to see new players and not want to interact much.

I am guilty of this. Back when I played I would always say how I wanted more newbies to have in the game and that this game needed more people to play. Now I have become jaded. In my time I have spent SO MANY hours roleplaying and helping newbies to have them never play again the next week or just move on to another character.

Geas is a decent MUD, but, unless you know people here already and can talk to them OOC about stuff the actual IC stuff gets kinda boring after a while especially when no one talks and is too busy.

I would say you are right mab, it's our problem not yours.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby Zehren » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:40 pm

I am guilty of this. Back when I played I would always say how I wanted more newbies to have in the game and that this game needed more people to play. Now I have become jaded. In my time I have spent SO MANY hours roleplaying and helping newbies to have them never play again the next week or just move on to another character.


Does get tiring.
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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby Aslak » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:58 am

luminier wrote:I am guilty of this. Back when I played I would always say how I wanted more newbies to have in the game and that this game needed more people to play. Now I have become jaded. In my time I have spent SO MANY hours roleplaying and helping newbies to have them never play again the next week or just move on to another character.


I am guilty of vanishing at least two times during newbie times when I tried out this mud after two or three weeks. This is mainly because Geas is EXTREMLY newbie unfriendly, and I do not mean the players, but the system.

The third time I managed to stick.

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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby louis » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:23 pm

Aslak wrote:[...]This is mainly because Geas is EXTREMLY newbie unfriendly, and I do not mean the players, but the system. [...]

Ok, you got our attention - any suggestions? If so, please be so kind post them in the thread "Ideas for Newbie Friendlyness on Geas"

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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby Drayn » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:22 pm

Mostly LPC MUDs just tend to be very different to other types of MUD that are more Diku style. I'd actually say Geas does pretty well for usability and syntax is usually pretty intuitive, save for a few puzzles where it can be a bit specific.

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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby Aslak » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:25 pm

Drayn wrote:Mostly LPC MUDs just tend to be very different to other types of MUD that are more Diku style. I'd actually say Geas does pretty well for usability and syntax is usually pretty intuitive, save for a few puzzles where it can be a bit specific.


I come from another LP Mud, basically the precursor of geas. Yet geas has so many complex systems that are not explained in enough detail.
Beside, communication is very hard to newbies I think.

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luminier
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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby luminier » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:34 pm

Probably didn't help that Aslak got the attention of the Crusaders right away and got killed, and then punished over and over.

You started playing during a war because of a poor RP decision of a character that ended up affecting you.
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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby Aslak » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:12 pm

luminier wrote:Probably didn't help that Aslak got the attention of the Crusaders right away and got killed, and then punished over and over.

You started playing during a war because of a poor RP decision of a character that ended up affecting you.


Uhm, I never got killed by any crusader and it actually had been a while till I died the first time. You are sure you are not mixing me up?
But well, the Sathos did hunt me as newbie for reasons I do still not understand at all, beside being evil bastards

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luminier
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Re: A role playing mud?

Postby luminier » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:14 am

You are correct, it was someone else.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.


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