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ghalt
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Rooouggges

Postby ghalt » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:08 am

So this arc is mostly done.

But a note:

We've got you! Now rat on all your parters!

Don't do this. This is "Now we break the rogues guild down, and the entire guild has to start over!" Demand it IC,sure, but if you don't back down from it you're being a jerk.

"But disguises!"

No, it doesn't work that way. It doesn't. I don't care what you think, I know better than you, it doesn't. If the entire guild is revealed (or every even mildly active player), it's gone, it has to rebuild. And there's not that many of us. You guys get a victory dance, and people later wonder why rogues aren't more active and why aren't you guys doing stuff and seriously rogues why aren't you stealing things?

(Because they're spending the year it takes to build up mildly successful rogue skills on a new char. At least. If they even want to bother.)

Sure! Catch us if we screw up! But this "and now we're going to TAKE OUT THE WHOLE GUILD!"

No. Jesus.

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Delia
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby Delia » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:15 am

Yesyes, and do not forget about strangling every caught thief for knowledge about guild items and the command syntax to use them. Last time something similar happened I was seriously wondering how the thieves can EVER use their special equipment.

I also sometimes think about how people always think that an organized guild of thieves is behind something. Guess they have an orb and telepathy items and its not a big leap from there...

Sidetracking a bit...should telepathy items be invisible somehow, so that you cannot easily discern that something can be used that way unless you hae some specific knowledge about it or your average friendly neighbourhood mage at hand?

Back to items...I have always thought that the thief items should be more easily available to everyone somehow. The point is no that everyone could train thief skills easily or whatevs but to create the hidden in plain sight situation that the thieves sorely require. If you are caught handling the "THIEVES ONLY SUPER SPECIAL, EVERYONE ELSE HANDS OFF" item even once, your game is over. Just over.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

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Delia
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby Delia » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:24 am

I forgot to add that my often dreamed of second character would have been a thief but I would never had joined the guild. To my understanding you can do quite a bit, or atleast could, without membership in a guild.

I mean, it could be very fun. No guild to worry about and you would after a while operate as a known thief without it completely wrecking the guild part of the game. Of course you would bet in a lot of trouble as players easily value their trinkets above all else and you might end up hurting feelings because "thievin'n'stuff ain't nice".

Very fun, or very hard finding that comfy snuggle spot between Crusader and Asral elbows.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates

"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre

"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

Dax
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby Dax » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:13 pm

I am just going to edit this post and say:

Don't over react.

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luminier
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby luminier » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:32 pm

i don't get it, why can't someone just be a common footpad anymore. why does she/he have to be a "rogue".

play dumb, people. more people than the "rogues" have access to makeup and custom weapons.

i am guilty of wanting to kill the whole guild (i had my reasons *cough*griefingandcheatingcharacters*cough*), but, now I see that it's more fun to play dumb.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

ferranifer
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby ferranifer » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:17 pm

Yes, the amount of metagaming surrounding the recent events is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. Rapier + dagger = thief. Flashbomb = thief. Since we've found a flashbomb, there MUST be a thieves' GUILD... c'mon guys, it's a bit excessive.

Plus the lack of consideration for your fellow players, as Ghalt mentioned.

glorfindel
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby glorfindel » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:31 am

Hi,

in the past experiences, if I would've used every bit of information that my char has gained that I could have evalulated to reveal a baddie, a thief, a rogue or some other hidden or semi hidden char, then this game would've turned for the bad for many a person here on the mud. If you are an old char and you play this game for a really long time, you can't help but notice certain things that are 'off' about a person. On top of that, people slip every once in a while here and there...

I found personally it is much better to act on solid facts then on things you can only deduct. It's okay to suspect somebody is and have your char behave suspicious, that can backfire against you as well. Mistrust, accusations, all well. But I would not overdo it and especially, don't let yourself get carried away by the limitations of the game.

What I mean by that? Think if your character could really tell somebody is a shady person based on what is happening in the world, not based on what you know OOC. I have seen this happening so many times and it makes me sad to see.

Sometimes, turning a blind eye to OOC obvious facts, makes the game better for everyone.

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Re: Rooouggges

Postby amrat » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:20 pm

Hello,

first of all let me make it clear that I have absolutely no idea what has happened with the rogues or any of the characters that are somehow involved in this (I don't even know who most of you are).

The first character I played in this MUD was a halfling. Because I was a halfling people made assumptions based on which I was approached and asked if I wanted to join certain organizations. I said yes partly because I was completely new and I had no idea what I was doing. Then I accidentally lost several guild items, messed up bad, got confused and talked to wrong people thinking they were of the thieving kind, exposed parts of the guild, tried to explain my way out of it all by revealing even more stuff, got even more confused, felt the whole world coming crumbling down and people being upset with me and decided that I couldn't play the character anymore. I created another halfling and went completely different way.

Several years later I found out that nobody cared and barely even knew about it even back then. The world didn't revolve around me after all. I created a new thief some years later but didn't end up playing her for too long.

During the 15 years I've been playing Geas not once has there been any thieves that would have been relevant to the world. Relevant characters, yes, but never as thieves, only as those guys that you meet at the crossing. Not once has the guild done something in the world. They are 100% an "abuse NPC mechanics to get whatever you want"-guild. There has never been any real consequences to anything as NPCs are very easy to abuse. And there has never been any real challenge.

There are two reasons for that, the first one being that there has always been the culture that they must remain completely secret and thus actually never do anything interesting. Partly because of not getting caught and partly so they wouldn't annoy other players they only target the easy NPC targets. The other reason is that very few characters actually care what happens in the world as long as it doesn't affect them directly. There _really_ should be several mechanics in play that would make all the prices and taxes go up when the shops get cleaned out so it would somehow force someone to give a damn. Sure, Taniels and crussies sometimes try but they don't really have the means or the energy after everything else.. Some characters have been caught by weird accidents and half a year later nobody cares or even remembers anymore.

I can assure you that in a couple of months you will find that absolutely nothing has changed for the rogues or the characters in the guild. Nobody knows what the fuss was about or if there even was one, if you got kicked out of something join something else. Talk to someone else. Your character hasn't become unplayable, the guild hasn't become unplayable, nothing is over and to be honest, without knowing any details, I find it refreshing to be reminded you even exist.

If that is what you want, that is. Or instead you could actually turn your character into someone who matters. As a thief.

@Amrat

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luminier
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby luminier » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:21 pm

In the time I played there were thieves relevant to the game world.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Skragna
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby Skragna » Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:05 am

I would dearly love to see the thieves' items be sold in various "black market" type areas: The one we all know of that is blatantly in plain sight, the one hidden in the city of flames, and while I'm sure there's more, they should cater to all walks who make it in and who DO NOT ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE. Black markets should run off their own reputation system, and if you dip below "neutral" they will /COMPLETELY/ refuse to deal with you until you fix it. With bribes to a dealer. ("We don't deal with people we hate. Care to grease the wheels?") This gives those who hate the rogues more NPC targets and less PC targets to crucify (figuratively, not literally), it gives PCs who want to be shady but not be a part of the guild a location to stock up/sell loot, and it gives the guild something it drastically needs: A DAMNED COVER FOR THEIR MORE EGREGIOUS ACTIONS/ITEMS.

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Re: Rooouggges

Postby Olrane » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:53 am

Thieves are the most broken thing in this game and I don't think there is a way to have them be viable and have impact because the economy is so weird.

Their entire existence, like every guild, is based on player-to-player interactions, and people will never stop OOC abusing against them because those PVP interactions are OOCly deemed antisocial.

The game culture here is that we're not allowed to talk about IC stuff. I think this harms more than it helps.

One person can break character and use OOC knowledge ICly in such a way that their actions or words become IC fact. I've seen it happen dozens of times where an OOC suspicion got translated into "knowledge" through a bit of telephone.

Thieves are one of the most mundane guilds in the game. All they have are their exclusive skills, items, and their contacts. I feel that the game culture should be more OOCly open to people who try to play such a difficult and, more than thankless, hated role.

There is no other guild with a player leaving rate so high. Most thieves quit Geas instead of rerolling after they are exhausted.

Edit: I should say also that the adolescence period for thieves is one of the longer ones in the game. I understand mages have it hard too, but this factors into the weight of the players.

Aslak
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby Aslak » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:56 pm

I have little to no knowledge about thiefguild in geas, neither IC nor OOC, so excuse if things are different then I believe them to be.

In most MUDs thiefs/rouges are an antisocial guild, with abilities targeted to annoy other players and only very little or no abilities to work for/together with other chars.
Also, in every MUD I know the economy is broken in a way that earning money is so easy for halfway decent sized chars, that renting money is seldom an option as well.

What I would suggest is to give thiefs a more rougelike role. Let them act as scouts in dangerous environment. Add areas/modify some where rouge skills are really needed, be it that they are heavily trapped, full of secret passages only findable with high rouge skills, hidden treasures etc.
Let them not only be a guild targeted to work against other players/chars, but give others a reason to work with a rouge.

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luminier
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby luminier » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:42 pm

What Olrane mentioned isn't only limited to the thieves guild, but it certainly affects them the most. Playing to win instead of playing dumb is just more fun for most people, so they basically end up screwing over everyone who isn't helping them win.

The skills aren't too bad to learn if I recall, mostly like becoming a Shaolin... the big difference is some/most skills can't be used in combat so training them is a lot less exciting in some ways. When you've pickpocketed your millionth orc, it get a little boring - but that the way with most skills I guess =D

The problem with your suggestion Aslak is that the Rangers are suppose to fill a big part of the role you described. Toward the end, I often thought of the thieves/rogues as the "evil rangers", so I am not surprised you came to the conclusion/idea that you did.

Something I tried to do to help the thieves (and the Crusaders, lets be honest they need some help right now) is to just ignore the thieves and let the courts, cities, guards, and vigilantes deal with them... not the Crusaders. I did this mainly because the Crusaders and the Thieves have had such a terrible past IC and OOC, and I was tired of feeling like I was driving people away from the game.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Olrane
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby Olrane » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:34 am

@ Aslak:

My time as a mercenary/rogue/assassin in Geas was very entertaining and I think also very social, but that still was not deemed worthy enough to not get bullied away from the game. I tried to be as interactive as possible instead of simply hiding and abusing thief guild skills to get ahead in unrelated goals.

To briefly summarize the plot: my rogue's group started a racket wherein they'd burgle or pickpocket and leave notes behind offering to sell anti-theft insurance. The idea was "lose it on your terms or ours". Unfortunately, we were not able to really get it going as our goal, which was to make PVP thieving a constant pest to anyone non-compliant, was considered incredibly antisocial and we started serious wars OOCly about if what we were doing was reasonable or fair.

Things came to a head in a plot in Elvandar wherein to punish an outspoken opponent of the group who had been trying to rally an resistance force against my rogue's group, there was a public assassination in Elvandar square - not of the opponent, but of one of the opponent's lady friends - as a way to say that opposition would be punished in cruel, indirect, and unpredictable ways.

Despite disguise, the ghost or some NPCs miraculously were able to identify the assassin, not to mention that they implicated another halfling who was unrelated to the hit but was a part of the group and was nearby, and a rallied force of about 4 player characters chased them around Elvandar city until sunup.

The bottom line here is that somewhere, someone made real the "knowledge" of the "truth" and it doesn't matter who, it doesn't matter why. My rogue was confronted and labelled and destroyed, with prejudice, for having PKed someone who could not have fought back, even though it was completely reasonable AND telegraphed.

Did I handle the aftermath well? No. Did I ragequit? ABSOLUTELY. But when your thief is confronted with someone who is 100% sure of the truth of something they *can't know* and they won't be convinced otherwise, you are backed into a corner. I was not given any opportunity to work things out. My character was not given any opportunity for plausible deniability. People wanted us GONE and they made it happen.

Edit: For those who care about this topic, the following thread has (in much more angry, freshly-wounded wording) pretty much all my novels regarding this event etc.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1849

Edit2: As a thief, every play session, I asked myself "How am I going to instigate a PVP conflict today that is relevant to the thieves' guild and to my character, and makes the presence of thieves known." Not every day was I able, but apparently if you are a thief it is undesirable to enact that role. I think that's horseshit, I will always think that's horseshit. Just as I want to see Crusaders on patrol and Clerics blessing and proselytizing, I expect pickpockets to not only do it, but often enough to make sure that it is OBVIOUS that they exist. My goal was always to prove that thieves as an organization are present while keeping individuals protected.

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Eluriel
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby Eluriel » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:28 am

Olrane wrote:Edit2: As a thief, every play session, I asked myself "How am I going to instigate a PVP conflict today that is relevant to the thieves' guild and to my character, and makes the presence of thieves known."


I think, as it is, the best way to play a thief is to not be known. To avoid even suspicion. Which doesn't really add to roleplay. I suppose you could cause some trouble if you're disguised. But otherwise, quietly gaining money under people's noses seems to be the aim of the thief guild.

ghalt
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby ghalt » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:14 am

Olrane wrote:People wanted us GONE and they made it happen.

Yeah. Just one or two people for me, but if they're persistent enough that's more than equal to the task of driving someone off. There's several that did a lot of work to make me stay and I greatly appreciate it, but, as far as I can tell, to some people we're not other players in the game. We're obstacles to be defeated by any means necessary. And rogues only get to really lose once.

Hey! Aslak! there's a lot of things we can actually do to assist others. I could free the tower prisoners without killing the troll, for instance. ^_^. And some areas are just... miraculously easier with a rogue. But if I help you in a way "only rogues can do", and you decide to be a jerk about it? The consequences to me can be astronomical. I'm not saying you would, to be clear, I'm just saying why rogues don't generally help anyone in ways particular to their specialties. There's just too much risk involved.

Also, to your other inquiry: there's a tremendous amount of npc content we can practice/abuse our various skills upon, so we can roleplay being callous villians without being trolls to living people. And most rogues I knew were either extremely concerned with playing fair or frankly jaded at the idea of the pvp nature of player theft. A few fairplay rules concerning theft wouldn't be a bad idea at all, mind. "Don't be a jerk about it" "Don't sell sentimental objects at vendors where they'll go poof" etc, etc--any rules currently followed are unwritten, which can be an issue if someone didn't get the memo.
Olrane wrote:One person can break character and use OOC knowledge ICly in such a way that their actions or words become IC fact. I've seen it happen dozens of times where an OOC suspicion got translated into "knowledge" through a bit of telephone.

I've seen someone talk about how character x is to blame for this theft and they know this for sure, when I've talked to character y who told me in detail how they're the ones that stole the thing. Hearsay isn't considered evidence for a reason. That reason is because it's almost always wrong. (Something else to include in a fairplay document: rules for what is/is not evidence!) ^_^

Aturshus
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby Aturshus » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:29 am

I knew for a very long time OOC'ly about several thieves. It wasn't until those thieves decided to plot against my character and guild and make them a target that my character found out, and oh boy was he mad. Even so I tried to be fair about it, but you can hardly expect him to just forget it happened and move on after what happened.

I had thoughts of playing a thief once, but really all this sort of stuff does make it impossible, and I wisely chose not to even bother. I have a few ideas how it might be helped, as part of a larger idea I have.

Olrane
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby Olrane » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:12 am

Eluriel wrote:
Olrane wrote:Edit2: As a thief, every play session, I asked myself "How am I going to instigate a PVP conflict today that is relevant to the thieves' guild and to my character, and makes the presence of thieves known."


I think, as it is, the best way to play a thief is to not be known. To avoid even suspicion. Which doesn't really add to roleplay. I suppose you could cause some trouble if you're disguised. But otherwise, quietly gaining money under people's noses seems to be the aim of the thief guild.


At least when I played, thieving wasn't nearly as lucrative gold-wise as simply doing a crafts profession. People could do their crafts, lock up their funds in the bank, and that was all.

Generally, though, people didn't work very often for money, period. You were either semi-passively earning it (warriors and scalping) or you just ignored it unless there was a big ticket item to buy like a horse. People didn't give a crap about spending time doing "work" in game aside from their hobbies or skill development.

So you had thieves who have to spend a ludicrous amount of time just to become eligible for PVP, and that PVP pays absolutely no dividends. You get poor PVE payouts and you avoid interaction. Awesome.

ghalt
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby ghalt » Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:01 am

Aturshus wrote:I knew for a very long time OOC'ly about several thieves. It wasn't until those thieves decided to plot against my character and guild and make them a target that my character found out, and oh boy was he mad. Even so I tried to be fair about it, but you can hardly expect him to just forget it happened and move on after what happened.

One rogue conspired against you. The others ignored you as much as possible.

And there was no great conspiracy against the rangers, no, I'm sorry. That's very interesting but it doesn't make it true. Like, the story became whatever was most interesting for you guys, and allowed the most reaction against us. And by us I mean "just me".

Skragna
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Re: Rooouggges

Postby Skragna » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:38 pm

Going to have to agree with Ghalt here. You guys unfairly heaped /all/ the blame you could onto him and pretty much ignored the fact there were others involved in this "conspiracy".


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