Power Trips

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ferranifer
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Re: Power Trips

#21 Post by ferranifer » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:39 pm

To respond to Lae, I'm not advocating for a replacement of nice behavior with mechanical punishment. In fact I advocated the opposite, that mechanics can only do so much and we players have to be nice to each other. But players have not been nice to each other and it does help bringing things into perspective to look at the root issues. Of course, we cannot discuss them here because reasons, but we should all look at them by ourselves and question our own behavior.

I'm saying that what you see as 'griefing' is in fact someone else's IC response to an IC situation that has in part being forced by those mechanics and in part caused by a disagreement of how things are and how things should be. In this particular case, by the weirdness that is the Elvandar political situation and the previous actions of many of the characters involved. And in this particular case too, the IC response is a moderate response with an attempt to not only de-escalate but also integrate. The issue is that it's trying to integrate into a view of the game that the affected characters disagree with. And that's where the OOC discussion should happen, in an attempt to reach alignment. Or in this case, where the staff should intervene.

Control over the law is so powerful and so deeply ingrained in the game mechanics (including some rather obscure ones) that it does become a big deal to obtain it, keep it and alter it to your own purposes. For some this is a matter of *survival*. It is incredibly hard to detach this from actions that *will* have a negative impact over other players. To aggravate the situation, I don't see any concrete efforts from people to come to common terms, mostly because of the invisible, unspeakable cloak and dagger issue that permeates the situation.

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Arsicas
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Re: Power Trips

#22 Post by Arsicas » Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:16 pm

Hey, all. I feel like the responses to the situations I know of have all been IC responses. I don’t think anyone is intentionally trying to be mean or make the game unfun for other players. But yeah, there can be pretty big consequences if you piss off the wrong people. I’ve always thought that being outlawed from a city is a pretty heavy consequence, so I guess I’ve tried to find ways to avoid it, even if it does mean not always acting exactly how my character might act. Or my character tries to be cautious and not piss off the wrong people (even if I secretly hate their guts). But if you play your character more overtly hostile toward the people in charge, then there may be consequences for that.

I don’t think the consequences thus far have been unreasonable, but I do feel like there has been some OOC spillover as far as getting upset over people’s actions. It would probably be best to work with a playerach to deal with any OOC conflict between players, because, even though we might not always agree with each other, we are playing this game together.

I do agree that there might also be some OOC disagreement as to how things should be. And in this case also, it would be good to work things out so that we’re playing the game together and working toward making it fun for all involved instead of bickering over someone’s actions not being the way you think the game should be played.

Overall, I think solving the OOC conflict and disagreement would help to avoid people taking extreme actions in order to get their way or get the upper hand. Because I don’t think people set out to be mean, it’s more “This is the only action I can take to have an impact,” and then the other side retaliates, and it just builds from there. We can have fun IC conflict without it spilling over to OOC, and I think that’s what everyone should strive for.
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Ioca
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Re: Power Trips

#23 Post by Ioca » Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:35 pm

> I don’t think anyone is intentionally trying to be mean or make the game unfun for other players.

Gonna have to disagree there! When I was asked IC to go to the council chambers by a couple priests, the conversation was immediately OOC. It was a very long conversation explaining to me, the player of my character, why I -need- to vote a certain way on the council, why I -need- to go along with particular OOC plans for the game. I said stuff like this:

<OOC>: I dunnooo... Starting to not want to be involved in this!

...

<OOC>: 'tis understandable ^^ But also "being a bad leader" is allowed and not illegal!

...

<OOC>: "Burn them!" That's a viable solution I learned from Ila! Ehehe... No, but seriously... I get it - bad leaders are a plague and have been ever since I started playing :< But it's like I said IC! If you 'force' people to do things, or dip your fingers in other cookie jars, there's -probably- gonna be fallout! And I'm avoiding that! IC and OOC!

...

And then the next day my character was a target. That was pretty great.

This stuff actually needs a playerarch.

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Re: Power Trips

#24 Post by ghalt » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:48 am

Ceinna wrote:Also - because I am not blind - I'm pretty sure I am included in the "person people have issues with OOC" and welcome (and ask) anyone who has issues with me to sit down with me and talk. I'm not nearly the bitch my character can be.
I think you're nostalgic for a time in the game I would have hated to play in, and your character has the power to decide that it's how the game is going to play now, and you as a player have decided to use it. There's not really a middle ground there.

It's not you, either--there's been repeated "swing judge power like a club as if it's your duty" for the past six months or so and probably someone, somewhere is enjoying it, but I'm not.

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Delia
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Re: Power Trips

#25 Post by Delia » Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:21 am

Not cool OOC there...

So am I reading this right that there is a wish for a less strict game with less consequences? Not faulting anyone here and it might even be a good thing. For a long time when I played actively there was a movement from player side into that direction. When the admins were actively involved in day to day events the game could be very harsh. It is what the guilds base on. Hard to imagine less strict evils though... Many issues here in this convo that deserve their own threads.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

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Delia
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Re: Power Trips

#26 Post by Delia » Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:08 am

A thought:

Perhaps it would be of some help if each guild had a RP thread here on the forum which includes the guild rules given from the top. Taniel codexes, Crusader commandments and whatnots. Some people might not actually know about such stuff(website does not help)and assume players just want to cause maximum harm to other players when it is actually the code and backdrop that compels their RP. I know it often has been a crusader problem that the players do not want to be such jerks the voices tell them to be.

So widen the collective perspective, know more, act on real info.

When everyone acknowledges guilds for what they are, a new conversation can begin about their role and place in the game and a possible need for changes.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

Laewyloth
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Re: Power Trips

#27 Post by Laewyloth » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:42 pm

Speaking from my personal perspective:

It's not about the game being less strict or having less consequences, it's more about collectively realizing:
  • The playerbase is not what it once was, and the institutions in-game have not evolved to reflect that. A prime example *is* the voting system within guilds, and within the Elvandar council (I'm -not- picking on this one, I'm just using it as an example) - where if you have 3 friends, you can essentially do 'whatever you want' because what are the chances the opposition is going to conjure up -four- people to vote against you?
  • The lore of each guild/kingdom/domain is awesome, but -every single bit of lore ever created- has wiggle room. I spent the past few days reading through old threads here where I sadly see a lot of the exact same complaints or grievances expressed in this thread boiling down to: "Well X's whole thing is zealotry, or hardline faith, or blahblahblah - but that doesn't mean you, or I need to take it to the fullest extent." I see 'famous' players expressing those exact same thoughts in those other threads.
  • OOC isn't the best method for explaining -why- your character does things. It just -isn't-. I maintain that IF you have to explain WHY your character did something but "That's just my character, it's not me, the player." it's probably not something you should have done. Yes, it's nice of you to say that and to explain it. And yes it's helpful to know -why-. But in an RP game, I shouldn't know anything about you, the player. All I should know is what your character does, will do, or has done. The exception of course being situations just like these, where there -is- no good, IC way to discuss the problem.
If the current playerbase thinks through those three points, it actually becomes even more interesting and 'fun' to develop consequences:
  • Instead of outlawing people, place bounties. Make people feel hunted, scared, cautious.
  • Instead of saying "Well mechanically, I can do this, so nyeeehhhhhh." pull your damn punches. You can still hurt someone's pride, character, etc. without full looting them, trapping them, or shouting over and over.
  • Instead of hopping from one alt to the next, accept the consequences of -your- actions and play appropriately. If you anger an entire guild or group of players, logging off and purposefully avoiding that conflict is bad form.
  • Instead of cornering someone, always give them an out. And when they don't take that out, but present another one, think about it critically. Put yourself in their shoes.
Mechanically, since the playerbase is smaller now, make the following changes and solve a lot of problems:
  • For any voting-based system, remove the ability of the individual(s) already voted in (i.e. on a council, in a current role, etc.) to vote. Make it so if someone wants to remain in power, they **must** appeal to other players.
  • Set a 'Must have been active for X' timer for voting-based systems. I have first-hand seen "Alts coming out of the woodworks" to vote on things. I.e. logging in, running to vote, and then logging off to return to their regularly-scheduled program. You wanna vote in Elvandar? Be a citizen, and log at least 10 hours of non-idle time within Elvandar prior to each voting season. You wanna vote for who runs X guild? Same thing.
  • Lower the 'number' of seats/votes/etc. required to affect change. Increase the difficulty of 'maintaining the status quo'. Essentially adopt a 'vote of no confidence' paradigm rather than simply tallying up numbers.
  • If Outlawing/banishing is supposed to be 'the ultimate punishment', afford an IC, NPC-driven way to resolve it. Maybe my character absolutely refuses to apologize to you. But you're not the queen, king, emperor, god-chosen grand-poobah. Some NPC is. Furthermore, there -are- guard NPCs. I know there's a certain skill that does something vaguely akin to this, but seriously? Allow for bribery. Maybe I just don't wanna fight the patrol today. Maybe I really wanna go buy something in that city. I should easily be able to slip some gold, some herbs, or a carrot to some guards and waltz right in. AND waltz right out. Players could stop me, Players could attack me or detain me, but the onus would be on the Player that took such grievous exception to my presence that they had to outlaw me in the first place.
All in all, the above (from the suggested thoughts, to the mechanics) would make it so one or two players *cannot* dictate how the game *is* for any other player. There will always be a way for that player to do 'something' besides doing exactly whatever is being demanded of them.

ila
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Re: Power Trips

#28 Post by ila » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:57 pm

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Brand
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Re: Power Trips

#29 Post by Brand » Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:54 pm

Out of curiosity, what would it look like to have a "genuinely good, honest, nice, and sincere Taniel"? Ive played the game a long time, seen a few different iterations of Taniels, even disagreed with a few of them. There tend to be very different opinions on how each group should be played and because of IRL influences those opinions can be rather polarized. Because there can be such differing ideas on this kind of dynamic, there is established lore in the form of books, signs, plaques, etc all in game to help provide the framework for the lore.
With that said, the lore references for the Taniels, including the codex which is public access for any who go to the Temple and read, as well as a few copies distributed to the various libraries, do not reflect Tanielites as kind and agreeable people. In fact Tanielites can be seen and have often been played as super zealots.
Admittedly my character, Brand, has suffered the harshness of the zealot Taniel before, and knowing how it made me, the player, feel at the time, have chosen to dial that back some in my own depiction of a Tanielite with Brand. Even though I lean more towards the moderate end of the spectrum of religious fanaticism, there is still a framework to work within.
And as far as this system of expending votes to enforce outlawery and such, it is not my desire to play a political game. Not sure if there is a demand for such a mud out there, but if I hear of one, I can pass along the info to this forum for whomever may be interested.

See y'all in game, have fun, enjoy yourselves and dont let the IC stuff add to IRL stress. It a'int worth it!

J
poBrand

glorfindel
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Re: Power Trips

#30 Post by glorfindel » Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:01 pm

ila wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:57 pm Also, I'm baffled to this day why nobody wants to roleplay a genuinely good, honest, nice, and sincere Taniel. Is there some faux scientology lore here, where you're secretly villains trying to control people for nefarious ends? If so, how the hell's karma supposed to work? o.o
Because, if am entirely looking how the 'good taniel' that my character once was, went down the drain... in the majority of the people's eyes, this is not how Taniels are "supposed" to work, includin admin provided in game references. Among many other reasons, it was one main reason for me to stop wanting to be a Taniel. And if you take a look at that codex, I feel it very clearly states where Taniels are envisioned to be. Yes, they're fighters against the evil in the world, but they by large have a 'with me or against me' attitude. In my experience a Taniel Cleric who sees you as 'on your side', will very much feel like a good and righteous person to you. A taniel cleric that is viewing you as evil or non-caring, is very much going to be someone that is something from indifferent to hostile (depending on the individual of course). That is how I encountered most of the clerics in this game, not only Taniels during my many years of and on at this game and I certainly didn't have it in me, to be the fanatic being a cleric obviously requires you to be.

Geas is, on the very core, a brutal game and I think it very much suffers from it. It is too easy to simply steamroll over somebody else and make their life hell just because you feel like it. Whether it is by burning down all their equipment, killing you every few weeks to take whatever new stuff you aquired, killing your horse because you "felt like it" or simply using whatever political power you have accrued to ruin somebodies day. I think the threshold to get from 'this is an engaging conflict' to 'this is a power trip' is very narrow in geas and I think, it is in part, a mechanical problem. It is way too easy to do damage to a person that'll take them weeks or months to come back from. Throw in some metagaming or a good social network and this could easily render that person 100% without a base of operation. Not to mention robbed of about 90% of their contacts. And more often then not, there's no realistic chance to come back from that. I had a character a while back, that was revealed as a thief through some very shady means. That character is burned, no chance in hell ever coming back from it. Some people will always remember that that character was once revealed as a thief and thus can never be trusted ever again.

In the end of the day, if this game is ever wanting to move on from its status quo that keeps repeating itself, a few things need to change:
- Realize this is a game that people play after school, after work, to relax. Give them that chance to enjoy the stories their character is trying to tell. Be welcoming to such ideas.
- Realize that people are not mobs. Killing someone is something rather significant and inpactful and should, always, be last measure. Give them a chance to recover their things without humiliating them or using their gear as a bargaining chip.
- If your goal is to have highly sophisticated pvp battles, there is probably a better game for you out there.

Mechanically:
- Deal with deaths and looting. There's very few more devastating things, then having worked ooc months for that mithril sword only to have it looted by the next foe who kills you. Also, death recovery is super unfun, especially if you are in a pk-heavy guild setup.
- Deal with the inbalances between the guilds. It's a novel idea to say 'well there's always more goodies then baddies, so the baddies need to be stronger', but all that leads in my opinion to a scenario where, every few months/years a big baddie or two will appear, ridicously dominiate everyone for a few months till people start getting sick of it, stop playing... rinse and repeat. Having no baddies is as bad as having ridiculously overpowered baddies. It is managable if you have someone who is 'fair' with what they do. But in all my years playing this game, there's exactly two people that I attribute to that they're being 'fair' while playing an evil character and those two both know, because I praised them time and time again. Mechanics need to find a way that allows a small group of goodies to occasionally stand their ground.
- Figure out a way to get the systems under control so that they start enhancing the experience and not hindering it.

I don't really have a horse in this race anymore, but I thought I'd drop my 2cc while coming by.

ila
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Re: Power Trips

#31 Post by ila » Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:13 pm

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Re: Power Trips

#32 Post by ila » Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:43 pm

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Delia
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Re: Power Trips

#33 Post by Delia » Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:28 am

Good to hear from Glorfindel as well as some well organized thoughts!

There is lot beating around the bush but otherwise very little actual proposals for change. The eggs though, I have always thought they need to change. They are a skill result for rhetoric and little else. It was long ago proposed that rhetoric would return different results depending on who preaches where which would be nice. Currently a Taniel can go to Asador and receive a standing ovation with high skill and the same goes for Sathos in Elvandar(which I have seen myself).
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

Zehren
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Re: Power Trips

#34 Post by Zehren » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:45 pm

Laewyloth wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:42 pm [*] If Outlawing/banishing is supposed to be 'the ultimate punishment', afford an IC, NPC-driven way to resolve it. Maybe my character absolutely refuses to apologize to you. But you're not the queen, king, emperor, god-chosen grand-poobah. Some NPC is. Furthermore, there -are- guard NPCs. I know there's a certain skill that does something vaguely akin to this, but seriously? Allow for bribery. Maybe I just don't wanna fight the patrol today. Maybe I really wanna go buy something in that city. I should easily be able to slip some gold, some herbs, or a carrot to some guards and waltz right in. AND waltz right out. Players could stop me, Players could attack me or detain me, but the onus would be on the Player that took such grievous exception to my presence that they had to outlaw me in the first place.
Whoevers controls Queen Gwenlanea's access to human males controls Elvandar. Such is the way of things.
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ila
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Re: Power Trips

#35 Post by ila » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:24 pm

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Yngwe
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Re: Power Trips

#36 Post by Yngwe » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:33 am

A guy had told all of his friends about the great steak he’d eaten downtown the day before. A group of them decided to head down and see if was really as large and delicious as he was making it out to be.

The group was seated in the back of the restaurant. After looking over the menu, they ordered and waited, hungrily, for their large, delicious pieces of gigantic steaks.

To their collective disappointment, the waiter brought out some of the smallest steaks they’d ever seen.

“Now see here,” the very embarrassed guy said to the waiter. “Yesterday when I came down here you served me a BIG, juicy, steak. Today, though, when I have my friends invited, you serve small miniature steaks! What is the meaning of this?”

“Yes, sir,” replied the waiter, “yesterday you were sitting by the window.”

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Allalltar
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Re: Power Trips

#37 Post by Allalltar » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:37 pm

People. Geas is a game. A game that you play -with- each other to have fun. We've come far from "a friendly online distributed tabletop game in a dark and rough setting" to "a full rule lawyering session". Please, everyone, take a deep breath, step back and try to play the game -with- people, even those that you may dislike. I'm not telling you to like them, I'm telling you to keep in mind that those are also human beings who have their own sorrows, worries, desires and needs and are just as worthy and allowed to play the game as you are. This thread is miles deep into "rule lawyering" already and it shouldn't be. Is it so hard to find a balance where everyone can actually enjoy their part of the game?

I was considering giving a lengthy response to all that has been said here, but instead settling for something short. Please, if you find yourself constantly unable to play with and enraged by others, maybe this is a moment to step back for a few weeks and take a deep breath? This entire thread is filled with charged feelings.

Lets try and play together, not against, hmm?

Allalltar, who's somewhat tired of situations like these.

Zehren
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Re: Power Trips

#38 Post by Zehren » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:55 pm

Allalltar wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:37 pm I was considering giving a lengthy response to all that has been said here, but instead settling for something short. Please, if you find yourself constantly unable to play with and enraged by others, maybe this is a moment to step back for a few weeks and take a deep breath? This entire thread is filled with charged feelings.

Lets try and play together, not against, hmm?
Absolutely agree. RP is fundamentally co-operative. I recommend taking breaks often, as soon as you start experiencing any negative emotions OOC. The losing move is to try to win. The winning move is to have fun, enjoy the stories, characters, explore whatever facet of personality you want to explore, waltz about with the lore, contribute to everyone's shared fun. Everyone makes mistakes. None of us are perfect. It's all make-believe with some extra dice. :heart:
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

ila
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Re: Power Trips

#39 Post by ila » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:25 am

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roxvod
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Re: Power Trips

#40 Post by roxvod » Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:51 am

ila wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:25 am Since I'm saying fuck these forums anyway, enjoy some top quality context-free Brand RP:

Brand calmly says in Quenya: So, if you are brave, then burn me
Brand calmly says in Quenya: Burn me or hush.
Brand calmly says in Quenya: Burn me or hush.
Brand tells Aisa in Quenya: That I will not be cowed by two immature children.
Brand calmly says in Quenya: You are both capable fighters. I know this. Yet you cannot take anything from me that I would not offer freely.
Brand calmly says in Quenya: Burn me or hush.
Brand tells Aisa in Quenya: Stab me or hush.
Brand tells you in Quenya: Burn me or hush.
Brand tells you in Quenya: Burn me or hush.
Brand tells you in Quenya: Burn me or hush.
Brand calmly says in Quenya: So says the child

10/10 roleplay. He then proceeded to condemn us. :)
Someone should make that a skald song! :lol:

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