Power Trips

[ghalt]

Can we have less of these, please?

Like less judges banning an entire religion to flex their muscles, less threatening permanent pvp retribution for being crossed, less let's make sure we humiliate our opponents?

If you're thinking "i hope you don't mean me, jerk" yes I mean you. I feel like I'd rather jump into a barrel of knives than play sometimes now.

Alla's said a lot "Remember you're playing with each other, not against each other" and I absolutely feel like I'm either watching everyone play against me and my friends or watching them play against someone else, to show them up. Sometimes with whatever alt they have that hits the hardest! Or I'm personally cornered, and don't know what I can do but try to ruin some other player's day to get some room! It's frigging exhausting. Can we please calm this down?

[Ioca]

I'm probably guilty of this a tiny bit, and super sorry for it. :<

I've felt like I'm being played "against" by other players (not characters, but literally particular players) for quite a while. I wish we had a playerarch to solve it.

My IC threats of retribution usually don't yield much except some grumbling, though. I don't actually hunt people all the time or do much of anything 'cept enjoy my slice-of-life RP and kill stuff, as I've always pretty much done!

The thing about my character is that she is actually strong though, and it's ridiculous if people start picking on her and expecting it to go easily for them. I am approaching Overlady. I'm -okay- with people starting things, but there's just got to be consequences for picking on the mostly peaceful, but particularly deadly elf - and usually I try to make sure the consequences are fun, but sometimes I feel so slighted and worked against that I really just want them to understand "it was a bad idea, you should've left me be since I literally did nothing to you anyway."

My grudges are all IC, and I hope everyone understands my threats are all IC, too. I have very few OOC gripes but I do have a couple I feel I wish there was a playerarch to address.

[ceinna]

The "outlawing entire groups of people" thing is VERY IC. Sathonyte worshipers and Lilithians are not allowed in Elvandar. Allowing them there would be completely lore breaking. Same way giving Taniels free roam of Asador would be the same. Its been this way for a while, there are lore basis to it.

Also - IC - just to point out, as much as you feel like its people against your entire group, it feels that way for the other side too. But for some of us, we are just trying to stick within the realm of what we know for lore (ie a good lore example of the relationship between the queen and the guilds can be VERY obviously seen in the history of the Ranger war).

The OOC bs? There are definitely cliques OOC. Anyone who thinks there is not is fooling themselves.

I've been on the end of "screw this" and almost deleting. Right now, you have entire chunks of players who are now mostly playing alts because they got tired of the bullshit drama. So I get what you are saying.

Also - because I am not blind - I'm pretty sure I am included in the "person people have issues with OOC" and welcome (and ask) anyone who has issues with me to sit down with me and talk. I'm not nearly the bitch my character can be.

[ila]

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[ceinna]

I think we have very different perspectives of what the lore is.

Plain and simple: Elvandar is Taniel Town. I saw the likes of Tehanu and the Ranger war from the Ranger perspective. When the Rangers were all outlawed for going against the church. And at that point in time - the wizards WERE actively involved. And they supported it. The only Ranger who wasn't outlawed I think was Dax, and he was a Taniel follower. This is a huge basis for me on my concept of how the city should be played. I remember players like Tehanu, XeXo, Caelia, Tatiana, etc. All characters who now where Im at, I try to pull from. Tehanu was a heavy handed Taniel zealot (who I hated when I was against her - and to be honest, now, looking back and seeing it from the other side - WOAH, she played the part so freaking well!! I wish she would come back honestly). Backed up by the Crusade, and they absolutely developed the lore there of how the Queen should see the guilds around her.

Other things include: that Taniel himself claimed the lands of Elvandar as his domain when the Codex was brought down to the church. This is not something Mortals should be able to change or adjust at any time because we should all be playing as if the gods are all knowing - because we know the wizards are trying to not get involved and so we should all be adults and limit our own things with this kind of understanding (the God sees everything).

Taniels are not nice. They are not friends with everyone. And in reality, the way I personally play Ceinna she has slowly ramped up her zealousness - as she came into being for her position. She could get a lot more zealot, and may do so, but I try to tone it down.

The thing is, there is lore, and we try very hard to stick to it. I know there is lore from the other side as well, but ultimately - Elvandar is Taniel Town. Elves are supposed to be slightly stuck up and snotty. They naturally should think they are better than everyone else. They do hold a natural dislike of half-elves (although not as bad as hark racism in Arborea/the world - which is also lovely played and integrated by the setting and definitely not something that should ever go away as we are dealing with a fantasy setting where racism is a HUGE deal). The Queen is a Tanielite priestess - this is not something that can be argued against.

But if you have specifics you would like to discuss, I would love to sit down with you and do so. Maybe between all of us who seem to have this confusion we can share enough that there can be an understanding of what the "lore" really is.

[Laewyloth]

My $0.02 as a pretty impartial observer (and I'll even address my one bias in this post):

I've -seen- games like this before, and been a part of 'em, on both sides (being the a-hole, and being the one people mistreated) and for some reason it always boils down to one or two things:

• You have played soooo long, and sooooo much that you don't want anything to change. You want the game the way you've always played it. You want all the 'really cool things' you did as a player to matter, and how DARE anyone else try to change, remove, deny, or ignore those 'really cool things'.
• You have genuinely run out of things to do, so you make trouble. It's not even really malicious trouble, it's just "Well I'm bored, so I'm going to engineer situations that piss people off, so I can have something to react to."
• You actually -don't- want to play with other players, you really -do- just want to play with the one or two people you've always played with. So you either act apathetic, outright mean, or in some other way, alienate those players you don't -wanna- play with.
• A genuine, and heartfelt misunderstanding between people.

That last one, I included because I try desperately to believe in the power of "Good Intentions", i.e. that nobody is intrinsically doing something to piss me off, and that they have good intentions but poor execution.

That said, I have seen a -lot- of things that have genuinely made me sad, as a new player (and I do mean new, I think the person I'm coming up on one year) in terms of IC interactions. And note, I'm leaving names out of this not because I don't think you'll all know who you are, but because it's the polite thing to do:

• I've seen first one, and then another -entire kingdom- purposefully alienate a handful of players and then cite lore as the reason. Lore exists to further player interactions, not to be weaponized into denying people the game. The people who did this didn't do so -because- it was the right thing to do, they didn't do it because it made really good sense. They did it because they got huffy when another person did 'a thing'.
• I've seen people use ooc 'addendums' to justify or explain -why- they're doing something ICly, or why their character is 'like this'. If you have to try and explain to someone oocly why you're being an ass ICly, it probably means you're not playing the game -properly-.
• I've seen people (and I've been one of them) who actively -want to- or -do- disregard some RP, or lore because it is -that- restrictive. Or sad. I play a game to have fun, to enjoy the setting, and to build a story. Not to feel crappy about my life, or my time spent on this game, or like I have to make some incredibly contrived decision that will in turn dictate whether or not I can play the game. I. Want. To. Play. The. Game.
• I've seen players who -are- doing a great job of being their characters, get 'shut down' by mechanics. And then watched as those 'mechanics' get tauted as some sort of magical super power that made the other party 'right'. RP != Mechanics. Mechanics are a way of bolstering RP. Don't pretend that just because you -can- do something, mechanically, that your character/guild/god/whatever should do it. Have some self-restraint. Be an adult.

Now that all said, I know some people are going to read this and feel attacked, and others are going to read this and think I'm agreeing with them. But really? Honestly? Nobody who has posted here, so far, is innocent. An' I'm including myself there. Every single one of you has made some big production outta something, and then argued about why it's not your fault or why it's something else, or why there's this other situation over here that excuses it. And all I'm ending this with is, I'm kind of sad. And I agree with Ghalt.

Go have some fun :< Go make neat stories Go do fun stuff.

[Ioca]

I feel that if someone trying to make the lore fit their version of how the game should be makes it unanimously unfun for lots of other players, then maybe it's a bad idea.

Geas evolved probably because players found it to be more fun in the state it wound up in.

[ceinna]

To comment on the specific of the cities outcasting large groups -

Geas is not a "everyone gets along" game. It never has been, and it absolutely shouldn't be. One of the things that sets it apart is that there is some pretty hard core conflict. You can play a goodie goodie, or a dark and twisted evil. I've personally played both. When I returned I chose NOT to bring my evil out of retirement because I refuse to play both sides.

Losing access to certain parts of the game has always been a legitimate consequence to IC behavior. It is not in any way us trying to be mean OOC. It is IC and legitimate. The list of those who are outlawed in Elvandar is long and plenty. I have a few alts on that list actually LOL!

I dont see this as asshole-ish. In the Arborea situation - there is a massive amount of RP behind the city decision, and there are characters who can solve the situation. Im looking forward to seeing it play out even though I dont have a stake in that hand.

Some of your other comments, if directed to me - which they very well could be, can you send me a private message so I can possible address them? Unless you prefer me to address some of them here (but again, a private message would be nice so we know what to address).

[Ioca]

> It is not in any way us trying to be mean OOC.

I log everything. This is one reason I feel we need a playerarch.

[ceinna]

> It is not in any way us trying to be mean OOC.

I log everything. This is one reason I feel we need a playerarch.

Obviously you have a specific concern with me, so if you would like to discuss it, I'm all ears.

[ila]

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[Ioca]

We'd need a playerarch for that. This isn't the place for those kinds of things.

My point here, in this thread, is that if you need to immediately go to a place where you're defensive and aggressive - the opposite of what Ghalt was making a plea for us to be IC, but now OOC as a response - then maybe you ought to evaluate whether you're contributing toward other players' fun or if you could maybe do things a different route that doesn't lead to the need for that.

[Israfel]

Hi

po Srikathuul/Wrath here.

You all have amazing characters and I miss seeing them around. Every one of you makes it fun to play.

I’ll admit it is a real challenge balancing the incredibly rich game lore, your own character’s motives, responsible use of the game mechanics and the wellbeing of the other people you’re playing with behind the characters all at the same time. They are all very important priorities and I feel it truly is a balancing act, especially in IC conflicts.

I don’t think I have the answers here but I want to put out there that I would like to:
1. Plan an awesome RP plot with every one of you
2. Lose IC occasionally so we can all win OOC
3. Find some ways to experience the lore through our characters and their interactions
4. Advance your character goals and mine
5. Refrain from using/over-using game mechanics that ruin your day - I can easily find RP reasons not to!

Hit me up on Discord / Slack / OOC room / mail me an OOC message / or surprise me IC.

Looking forward to seeing more of you.

[Delia]

Perhaps if players were more open and sincere about their character's goals and motivations and discussed about them on an open forum. The same goes for guilds and rp stuff in general. It does not matter if a player knows stuff if a character does not. It is not about the win, it is about trust.

You could atleast try. It would not hurt? Imagine, faction A plans a big move against faction B and announces about it OOC on a public forum. Timeline and plans and goals are divulged OOC. Perhaps a rp log for fluff too. Faction B responds and a date is set for action. Faction C and perhaps even D chime in with their ideas how they could complicate things. Few possible outcomes are decided, win and lose conditions set.

Or everyone could keep their cards to their chest and minmax cloak and dagger for the win.

I just know I woud have always preferred the openness OOC.

Anyhoo, play nice all!

[ferranifer]

My two cents on this:
- New perspectives are not better simply for being new.
- Our individual perspectives are undoubtedly biased.
- IC conflict is unavoidable and some find it desirable. Political conflict is PvP.
- Keep IC conflict IC. Engage with it, let it develop, resolve it. IC.
- The key to harmonic play is to put your personal goals (as a player) under the welfare of the game at large.
- We can all find ways to alter our characters for OOC reasons. Sometimes we should. See previous point.
- There is space in the game for people to develop their own, low-impact plots. Not everything needs to be a city-scale affair.

I am with Delia about openness and cooperative plotting. Though I find it incredibly hard to put in practice when half the game is built around cloak and dagger and there are untouchable topics.

A note on consequences:
Elvandar and Arborea have tools of consequence against villany. If you are a villain, you expect these mechanisms to be turned on against you. Arborea is a little different, but if you're openly a villain against it, you're also going to have these mechanisms turned on as well. Darkelves, sathonites, lilithians are easy to see forms of villany, but being a villain is largely a matter of perspective. This has been a core aspect of being a villain in the game since its inception and a very strong IC reason for people to respect the establishment and well.. most importantly, to be nice to each other. To put the topic on the table, obtaining control over those mechanisms is a core aspect of the political play.

And lastly, about Elvandar:
You will find as many opinions about how Elvandar (or Arborea) should be as people play the game.
Elvandar has suffered from the understanding that its government was under the staff's surveillance. This makes it easy to think that everything is going well because the staff is not intervening.
Since the introduction of the council, *things* have been done with the Elvandar government system that are questionably out of setting, just because the mechanics allowed it (e.g. the Queen - aka the staff - doesn't intervene therefore it was okay to do). Call it scheming, political maneuvering, political victories even, the fact remains that they went largely unchecked because they flew under the radar or because people simply doesn't know anymore how Elvandar should be. But the operations of Elvandar are intricately connected with at least 4 different guilds, so this is of course going to be a hot topic of discussion.

Sometimes the setting needs to be clarified by the staff.

With Taniels, the staff did intervene in the past about this. They showed us players how what they wanted was the hardline position. Established it clearly in game through undisputable action.

I don't know if the staff is silent now because they do in fact want the Queen to not intervene or because they don't want to get involved in drama or because they think the fate of the Elvandarian establishment is in the hands of the players. This last point is what we all need to assume.. and that has to be played IC.

[ila]

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[ferranifer]

I think you'll have to elaborate because when I look at the court in Elvandar, for example, what I see is Yngwe holding back and creating opportunities for de-escalation. Which then get treated like an insult or brought to OOC complains instead of being dealt with IC. He even cited his reasoning as being affected by your position in the council. And is Yngwe not playing?

I am at a loss at what you're referring to and I must be missing some crucial parts of it. Perspectives.

[ila]

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[Laewyloth]

One thing I guess I'd like to point out as well because it's kind of irking me is that it *seems* like, some of the responses here are coming down to:

• The game is meant to have conflict, deal with it.
• X is established, it's been established, deal with it.
• Politics is just RP PVP

Taking these points in aggregate, (and again, to the OP of this thread's point, an extreme) using IC, political power, to purposefully 'grief' a player is fine. Because there's established reasons for doing so, it constitutes conflict, and it's a right of those players because they put in the time to obtain that political power.

If I were to put that into a strict pvp sense and change the wording slightly: Using mechanical, IC power to purposefully 'grief' a player is fine. Because there's established reasons for doing so, it constitutes conflict, and it's a right of those players because they put in the time to obtain that mechanical power.

I do that to hopefully illustrate the audacity or the incorrectness of that sort of thought, because it means that if one of those players who are feeling cornered, or upset, or purposefully targeted -decided to snap-...it'd be perfectly alright to full loot, spam kill, and acid-wash the players they dislike. Which, we can all agree right - would be pretty crummy. In fact, looking through the forums, there's more than a few posts saying "Waaahhhh, so-and-so was griefing me by making it so I can't do X, or do Y." Again, using...mechanics.

And that's kinda the point of the thread, right? Stop. Going. To. Extremes. Stop justifying your actions by saying 'Well I -can- do this, so I -should- do this'. I promise, you can still have just as much conflict and fun "political RP PVP" without it.

[ila]

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