Play the Time Period

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Lauriert
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Play the Time Period

#1 Post by Lauriert » Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:07 pm

So, I hope I'm not the only person who is tired of people rping in this game like it's 21st century Earth. It ain't that. It's more like the dark ages. There are some things that a vast majority of people don't play correctly. I'm not here to debate today's politics with you, but there are some things people aren't giving appropriate reaction to in game.

Same Sex Relationships
Sex Changes
Ideologies that oppose the church being in charge

Those are the ones I can name off hand and each of those would have been grounds for burning at the stake. Each of these would have to be kept secret on threat of torture, humiliation, and death. I couldn't care less how anyone feels about these issues IRL. Your views on these issues as a player shouldn't matter as it relates to playing a character in a dark medieval setting.

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Re: Play the Time Period

#2 Post by isengoo » Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:00 pm

Also, the use of obvious 21st century language and slang needs to go.

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Re: Play the Time Period

#3 Post by Arsicas » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:55 pm

I also think it depends upon the character and their ideology though. Gwennies don’t have many hang-ups as far as who you have relationships with. Taniels are probably more strict and appeal to traditional values. Elvandar is pretty much a theocracy, so criticizing the church is likely to have a bigger reaction than in some other places. Even though Arborea is pretty tied to Asralite ideology, they don’t have as much of a heavy-handed rule over the city.
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Re: Play the Time Period

#4 Post by Lauriert » Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:05 am

Gwennies are a whacky cult in the lore and should be treated as such.

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Re: Play the Time Period

#5 Post by ila » Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:13 am

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Re: Play the Time Period

#6 Post by ceinna » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:00 pm

I understand what you are getting at Lauriert. There is a reason things like firearms do not exist IC, and there are no cars/etc.

There is a timeframe that the game is played in. I've always considered it medieval type. There are things that are addressed IC - like the fact that the Taniels should actually be against same sex relationships (it is lore explained inside the temple).

You can actively play a character who is against same sex relationships, is racist, etc. without you as a person being those things in real life.

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Re: Play the Time Period

#7 Post by Lauriert » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:28 pm

This has nothing to do with my personal views. I'm noting the almost total lack of people reacting to things as most people from the medieval time period would. It's not about whether I like people's roleplay or not, it's about how I'm pointing out that people's values in this time period would be considerably different from what they are today but yet I rarely see that reflected in game. It's not that people are offending me personally, I don't really have a big personal issue. But when nobody plays or roleplays the time period the game is taking place in, it's jarring and breaks the immersion. Not just for me, but for others I'm sure.

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Re: Play the Time Period

#8 Post by ila » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:41 pm

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Re: Play the Time Period

#9 Post by Laewyloth » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:01 pm

Well erm, hang on there.

I'm going to assume best intentions here, and respond accordingly.
  • European Middle Ages only really started villifying male + male relationships (as sodomy) with St. Thomas Aquinas. Prior to that, it was pretty much 'eh, whatever floats your boat'. Plus, like -most things- even after that, it was pretty much a 'If you are rich, and influential, it's all good' thing. Please note I called out male + male relationships specifically, as female + female relationships were actually perfectly fine, as they did not 'count' (I'm serious, look it up) as a sexual relationship, unless a dildo or other phallic object were in use). So, really, someone's reaction to a same-sex relationship, even in the most strict of middle age settings (which, Geas really isn't, as per a bunch of anachronisms), would have totally depended on: 1) The sex of the two people, 2) their social status, and 3) whether or not everyone was part of the same culture/society.
  • Females, of any sort, would not be able to hold positions of clerical power. The end. Full stop. While there's been some liturgical discussions on whether or not there were cases of women being ordained, the 'church' at the time of the middle ages was 100% male dominated, and women were not seen as viable candidates for ecumenical duties (or even acting as scribes). By this logic, IF geas were truly a medieval setting, you ought to be more appalled that women are anything more than political rulers or mercenaries. Pretty much everything else inbetween should literally be blowing your mind right now.
  • Almost nobody wore metal armors, and certainly not clergy. Metal was -expensive- AF. And only the richest, most important individuals would have been wearing it (including -generals- of entire armies). Seeing the rank-and-file Crusaders, or Clergy members wearing metal should again, blow your character's mind.
Now, if you're saying "But Lae, X is different", lemme tell you! It ain't! The fact that there are women in clergies, people running around in full plate-mail and fancy necklaces and rings, and double-masted ships (bogeys) would, by all accounts, be utterly anachronistic. The point being it's a game, and there's fantasy. The fact that -one- small church might have specific lore about it means members of that church should -absolutely- RP that way, but the rest of the populace can shrug, be scandalized, or simply be really, really into it (damn gwennites). And plus, to further confuse things, we're talking "European / Western Medieval", and specifically like...England/France/Spain. Not the nordics, eastern european, Asian, etc.

So again, we should reaaaaally not pull at the "But medieval..." thread too much. Edited to add: If -you- want to be in the scandalized camp (I mean your character, not -you-), then you absolutely, 100% ought to be. And if you're talking to someone from your clergy/faction who is similarly of that mindset, then by all means, be scandalized! And if anyone tells you its bad form to be scandalized, -then- I'd say you should legitimately complain. But if you're complaining that -other people- aren't acting scandalized, then I'd say you should read the above and just 'sniff test' whether your character is also similarly scandalized. And if you're not, then ask yourself if the other people involved aren't part of your clergy/faction/etc. and if so, don't expect that they be similarly scandalized. Unless of course, there -is- specific dogma/lore for that religion/faction/etc.

For a full list of anachronisms related to Geas being 'medieval' please contact your local, neighborhood Lae.

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Re: Play the Time Period

#10 Post by Laewyloth » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:17 pm

ila wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:41 pm The average lay person's understanding of medieval times is largely colored by the presence of a somehow all-powerful church that controlled morality. Of course, any particular notions are going to be flawed because "medieval times" spanned centuries across many different cultures, but as immersion is based on subjectivity rather than truth, I'll point out that Geas does not have an all-powerful singular church like real life did, and so many presumptions of real life medieval culture may fall flat as a result.
Western-centric rube~! I mean that with love of course. And just wanted to highlight this. Because -this- paragraph should sum it all up. From century to century within the middle ages, fashion, church, state, etc fluctuated -heavily-. Especially in Europe. Wait, not all of Europe. Just England, France, and Spain. Well wait. Just parts of those. Well wait...

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Re: Play the Time Period

#11 Post by Arsicas » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:59 pm

Yeah, I’d have to agree with a lot of what’s been said. There isn’t a single church’s morality governing society as a whole. There are several different feuding ideologies, with some ideologies having a hold over particular cities/areas. And yeah, we’re a fantasy world, so it’s not going to match real life exactly.

I don’t really feel like I’ve noticed any immersion-breaking rp to the point where I said “Wait, that really doesn’t make sense.” Granted, some people have been super tolerant of things like magic and same-sex or different-race relationships, but I know some people may not want to play intolerant characters. I think it’s been brought up before that playing a hardcore Tanielite can be kind of alienating because they are so strict that Taniel’s way is right and everything else is evil.

However, Ars has always tried to be discreet regarding his deviant behaviors. ;) He realizes that some things might not be accepted or welcomed in polite society, so I think it makes sense to be more cautious about open displays of things that go against X ideology when you’re in the city where X ideology is prevalent. Though when Elvandar implemented more restrictive laws about relationships, Ars certainly made his views known.

I would just say to rp your character how you’d like to play them and allow for a range of tolerant to intolerant views.
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Re: Play the Time Period

#12 Post by Lauriert » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:00 pm

My goodness, everyone who replied to this got hung up on the 3 examples I gave. There's more to it than that that's just what I could think of when I opened the discussion. That's by far not the only issue. It's just people generally addressing situations the way a 21st century person would and they shouldn't. Yes, people are free to oppose the church, but I'd expect them to be more punished for it. But I'm discussing this more broadly than the examples I gave.

I will respond to all 3 of Lae's points.

1. The Christian church has opposed homosexuality since it's inception and long before, dating back to their Jewish roots. Any country governed by the church vilified homosexuality, end of story.
2. What is said of women is very much true, and we're not faithful to that because if we were, nobody would want to play a female because there's no advantage to it.
3. What you said of metal armor is more true for plate armors than others. Only knights and high ranking figured wore plate, that is very much true. However, common foot soldiers commonly employed hauberks and brigandines to protect themselves as well as studded leather, all of which used plenty of metal.

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Re: Play the Time Period

#13 Post by Zehren » Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:21 pm

Transposing the "medieval" "european" "church" into Forostar doesn't really work well due to the different setting && history && theology.

Transposing modern ethics (with e.g. focus on egalitarianism and individualism) into Forostar is just as weird, and IMO pretty dull. Hence e.g. the experimental "twist" of Arborea into an honour society (using the law framework as the instrument).
Sex Changes
Sounds like your local source of fleshcraft is slowly ramping up his trade
Ideologies that oppose the church being in charge
Seems to have been an uptick in chars who minimize the impact of the deities. Which is funny given how those same chars go running and begging for resurrections.
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Re: Play the Time Period

#14 Post by Laewyloth » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:18 am

I wish I could delete this post because I mis-clicked! :<
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Re: Play the Time Period

#15 Post by Laewyloth » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:19 am

Lauriert wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:00 pm My goodness, everyone who replied to this got hung up on the 3 examples I gave. There's more to it than that that's just what I could think of when I opened the discussion. That's by far not the only issue. It's just people generally addressing situations the way a 21st century person would and they shouldn't. Yes, people are free to oppose the church, but I'd expect them to be more punished for it. But I'm discussing this more broadly than the examples I gave.

I will respond to all 3 of Lae's points.

1. The Christian church has opposed homosexuality since it's inception and long before, dating back to their Jewish roots. Any country governed by the church vilified homosexuality, end of story.
Wellll, not really. It's a super interesting topic, and -totally- off-topic for this thread, but I felt my inner pedant clawing at my spine so I wanted to respond with at least a -few- rebuttals.
  • Specificaly male + male coupling is only mentioned in: Leviticus 18:22, 20:13. Why is this important? Because, interestingly enough, the sections in which male + male coupling is mentioned is -actually- a reference (in Hebrew) to a mistranslation of the word 'lying' which actually relates more to incest (i.e. men copulating with male relatives) and not specifically about two random doods. The -early- medieval period saw, as part of the rise of ascetism, a lot of angst and hatred against -anything- that wasn't pure and virginal. The main 'fathers' of the reformed and middle-age Christian church (Gregory of Nazianus, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, etc.) actually hated -all- sex. Like literally...all sex. Remember, pious = good, pagan = bad. Also, incest was still the worst sin imaginable. https://www.jstor.org/stable/2779118
  • Up through the -14th century-, there were purr-fectly accepted and low-risk ways of expressing / conveying male + male relationships. Don't believe me? The rite of Adelphopoiesis (brother-making!) is covered here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelphopoiesis but the long and short of it is -church approved- bro-mo-sexual relationships were pretty common. And outside of a few really notable cases, nobody really cared about homosexuality in the church. What people -did- care about was depravity, a lack of piety, and any behavior that wasn't ascetic. In fact, masturbation was -worse- than incest, or infefidelity, -or- murder!
  • I couldn't find a good free copy, but https://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Soc ... 0226067114 actually has a lot of super-interesting, scholarly work on what was going on in Christiandom throughout the middle ages. Note, this work is often cited (same as the Leviticus verses above) by those trying to say Christianity -didn't- care about homosexuality. I'm not trying to say they didn't, just that in the middle ages, I -promise you-, nobody really cared -except- those priests and clergy trying to reform the more 'tribalised' sects, groups, and factions of christianity into a big ole church. Keep in mind, schisms, plagues, peasant revolts, and a whole bunch of torture pretty much kept everyone's focus on...well, those things.
  • I mentioned St Thomas Aquinas because he literally, -literally- created the 'modern' Christian dogma against Homosexuality as it violated his concepts of natural law. A good paper to read is: https://www.jstor.org/stable/40018214. The tl;dr version is that 'Homosexuality is bad solely because it's not natural.' Oddly enough? That was never -actually said- in any scripture, prior to T-Aqs, because again - the focus wasn't on what was 'natural', the focus was on piety and not doing things that weren't: Entering the priesthood or getting married an' having babies.
  • I'm sorry, this got -really- in depth. I didn't mean it to. I'll stop. Suffice it to say, there is very strong evidence (from writings, to paintings, to sculptures, to canonized-saints) that the christian church actually -really- didn't care about homosexuality. Up until a certain time-frame. And even then, so long as you did it the right way, nobody stared too hard. Also, please note, all of this has specifically mentioned male + male relationships because absolutely -no where-, were females ever mentioned.
2. What is said of women is very much true, and we're not faithful to that because if we were, nobody would want to play a female because there's no advantage to it.
But that's also my point, by the by. Why-come we're faithful to one aspect of that 'usual' medieval ideal, but not the others? Because it wouldn't be fun. I'm not saying you're saying anything wrong here, just that you're makin' my point as to why we should all just let people play how they wanna play, unless there is a setting-specific reason not to (i.e. an IC clergy has expressly forbid homosexuality, questioning the church, etc.)
3. What you said of metal armor is more true for plate armors than others. Only knights and high ranking figured wore plate, that is very much true. However, common foot soldiers commonly employed hauberks and brigandines to protect themselves as well as studded leather, all of which used plenty of metal.
Inner pedant here again (I'm not being a butt, I promise, I just really find this stuff fascinating). So yes and no.

Only when you reached the late 9th century (remember, the 'middle ages' was from 500 CE all the way to 1500 CE) chainmail became more common, with most army-folks wearing an iron chain-mail of 'some sort'. Hauberks weren't actually in use until 1200 CE (a hauberk being a full chain-mail tunic laid over some thick quilted clothing). Same with brigadines. This coincided (oddly enough) with the rise of thrusting, spearing weapons and the use of black powder weapons. Earlier in the middle ages (500 CE to around 900 CE or so) leather, hardened and layers with fur/quilted fabric was actually the main-stay. Along with, -IF- you could afford it, a helmet. So if we want to imagine geas in that 'sweet spot' of 900 CE to 1200 CE, then metal's still prohibitively expensive, but most men-at-arms are going to wearing a simple ring-mail (not chain-mail) shirt, over hardened leather, over quilted fabric.

So yes, I should have specified - "You should gawk in sheer, amazed, -awe- at anyone wearing plate mail or ornaments, as they're surely a general, king, or merchant nobility". Also, 'studded leather' does not exist. -Hardened- leather was boiled, and incredibly uncomfortable. But leather -was- sometimes stretched out over -metal plates-, i.e. in the early renaissance to look cool, and to give it a 'studded' appearance!

----

I'm really not picking on you here, just trying to be historically accurate, and to show that it's really a fools errand to try and 'immerse' ourselves in it. We're all seriously better off picking a fantasy book and comparing Geas to that (I choose Wizards First Rule)

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Re: Play the Time Period

#16 Post by Lauriert » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:45 am

I'm not really interested in turning this thread into a religious debate about how firmly Christianity opposes homosexuality, whether it opposes all homosexuality, and how long it has done so. That is best left for a different discussion. The topic here is that people seem to be rping more in line with 21st century values rather than ones you'd expect to find within the lore of the game.

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Re: Play the Time Period

#17 Post by ila » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:04 am

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Re: Play the Time Period

#18 Post by Laewyloth » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:52 pm

Okay, we don't have to discuss it...but the point was:

You're saying people aren't adhering to your imagination of what medieval fantasy is. I wanted to share/show that medieval (i.e. the middle ages) was absolutely, 100% not like how most people imagine. I -love- that people have imaginations and images of what life would have been like, that's what makes playing imagination-based games...well, fun!

In this instance, you brought up three things and I think what everyone's said so far is: 1) If -your- character wants to be scandalized by homosexuality, cool! Go for it. Especially if there's lore to support it. But please don't expect anyone else to adopt that, especially to support your 'immersion' in the game. There just isn't any lore, or historical equivalencies to back it up. 2) There isn't any central, dogmatic church or faith in Forostar (except to Ila's really interesting point re: the widespread immigration of Lillithian believers) and so conflict arising from hating, distrusting, or disliking 'a church' is central to the plot. It's entirely feasible and relatable to believe that people get reaaaaal tired of Church X's leadership and pedagogy, and revolt (that's a historical proven, -and- part of the game's established lore). And 3) Transexuals, hermaphrodites, non-gendered individuals -did- frequently shift between revered and reviled - but cross-dressing (I'm not really sure what this one was about so forgive me if you meant something else) was actually pretty common as well. Young girls who got tired of living oppressed would cut their hair, bind their breasts, and wear armor (remember, leather~!) to go in search of their fortune!

I will wholeheartedly also agree though: People using modern day slang, referencing modern day contrivances, or using metaphors that wouldn't have made sense in the past...really -do- break the immersion and should be nudged in the right direction. I personally haven't seen too much of that, but I'm sure it exists :3

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Re: Play the Time Period

#19 Post by Delia » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:45 pm

What has irked me to a degree is that when the setting is not fully fleshed out and established it is up to the players to fill the gaps. Now sometimes it works splendidly but more often than not when you ask 10 players "what Geas is" you get 100 different answers and also more often than not those players do not really talk cooperatively about what Geas is and come to an agreement and compromise but talk only when it is about arguing and defending your own turf(to clarify, I do not refer to this discussion here. Just stuff I have seen in over a decade).

My character has met lunatics(my character's perception of them IG) hailing from mysterious continents and places never heard of and some of those characters have mysteriously been "powerful vampires" and whatnots in broad daylight playing out their fantasies to and with each other. All fun, fine and well but very, very little to do with Geas.

Players play as they want to play, not as they are supposed to play. That is one unchanging truth. I suppose one COULD encourage players to play as they are supposed to play by creating a set of common rules. Something that most players will agree on and say when they are referred to: "that is Geas".

Of course this would mean players would actually start communicating with each other in a friendly, earnest and respectful manner and be ready to lose some imaginary benefit(winning an argument, character power)in favour of abstract RP flavouring.

Go start a Taniels roleplay thread and discuss Taniels.
Go start an Elvandar roleplay thread and discuss Elvandar and its population and role in Forostar.
Do this with every possible subject and slowly come in agreement and start making that change in game...together.

And play nice all :)
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"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

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Re: Play the Time Period

#20 Post by Melendil » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:05 pm

One irk of mine is when people apply science that doesn't come from Geas. I once had a conversation with a character who tried to explain gravity to me. I dutifully told them that was nonsense and that things fall down because earth is lazy and seeks to rest all the time, you know, proper science :D

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