Identifying unknown characters

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Zehren
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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#21 Post by Zehren » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:10 am

ila wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:07 am
Zehren wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:56 am
ila wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:05 am I'd personally estimate Forostar's populations in the millions at least, and also personally disagree that elves are sparse by any definition.

This is based on actual medieval-time cities having populations in the hundreds of thousands, with numerous cities, and sprawling populations between them (see: the reputation system).
Please find me IRL statistics for a small continent under constant attack (for a thousand years) by two different evil hordes (lilithians + insects), thanks.
I did say medieval times.

I'm also not sure I'd call the Lilithians or Insects' actions proper horde invasions. When the insects truly invaded Forostar, the whole continent was reeling, so it seems to me more likely that the insects attacking now are small groups. Likewise, the Lilithians don't seem to be true invaders most of the time, most of the time they're too busy infighting to properly invade, and just cause destruction all around them as Lilithians are wont to do.
Small group because of big time attrition and small populations remaining on both sides :D
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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#22 Post by Ioca » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:12 am

This whole thing is just one of those things I gravely disagree about you with, Zehren! I like you as a person but I've gotta say I have noticed a trend of a particular tiny group of people who just have it out for a particular guild and pretty much say and do anything to disregard them OOC. That's all fine, but like, seriously...

Disguises exist so that people can go and do their sneaky business and not be known as their real self. It doesn't matter what things exist that credit or discredit that, because the intention of one of the hardest to improve and use skills in the game that has super strict requirements even for being used is indeed so that someone can roleplay being unknown to others.

I like you, but it doesn't matter if you don't like that. It's just how it's supposed to be, and I've discussed it with admins to know that's exactly how it's supposed to be, and I'd trust the people who designed things more than I trust someone who didn't design them trying to explain what they're meant for.

The topic is that it is bad RP for people to see right on through that disguise that someone probably wrote a whole character sheet up for and meticulously crafted a persona for and gathered equipment and weapons for and just say "hello, Aisahi" like Yngwe did to me once and like how Lauriert does every single chance he can so that he can pretend to be an ultra sleuth genius in the game.
Last edited by Ioca on Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Zehren
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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#23 Post by Zehren » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:12 am

ila wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:09 am
Zehren wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:06 am
Ioca wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:24 am I've been told by admins it's just not how it is.

Forostar is extremely populated to the point where if you do something sneaky in a cave in the middle of a forest, you will definitely, 100%, no room for error be seen and watched by someone snooping nearby, who will rumour it back to the nearest major city faster than fast. This is pretty much canon - this is the mechanics of the game.
Wizzies have never - to my knowledge - given any canonical demographics for Forostar. I'm guessing you've received one wizard's personal opinion on the matter.
(If Forostar populations are canonically in the millions, I'll quit because that's not the game I have been playing or want to play. That falls into high-fantasy/optimistic setting, in my opinion, not the dark fantasy setting Geas advertises as.)
Fft, you actually "if the game isn't how I want it to be, I'll quit." Wow, feel free.
This isn't a snarky or emotional comment, it's a simple hypothetical "I want to play a dark fantasy setting" -> turns out the setting isn't what I was hoping for or actually matches the impression I have had over the years -> "okay guess I wanted to play a different game then".

Why would you play a game that isn't what you want to play? Makes no sense.

EDIT: btw is 'fft' an acronym, or an onomatopoeia? I can't figure it out.
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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#24 Post by ghalt » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:18 am

The Black Death reaches England
The summer of 1348 was abnormally wet. Grain lay rotting in the fields due to the nearly constant rains. With the harvest so adversely affected, it seemed certain that there would be food shortages. But a far worse enemy was set to appear.

It isn't clear exactly when or where the Black Death reached England. Some reports at the time pointed to Bristol, others to Dorset. The disease may have appeared as early as late June or as late as August 4. We do know that in mid-summer the Channel Islands were reeling under an outbreak of the plague. From this simple beginning, the disease spread throughout England with dizzying speed and fatal consequences.

The effect was at its worst in cities, where overcrowding and primitive sanitation aided its spread. On November 1 the plague reached London, and up to 30,000 of the city's population of 70,000 inhabitants succumbed. Over the next two years, the disease killed between 30-40% of the entire population. Given that the pre-plague population of England was in the range of 5-6 million people, fatalities may have reached as high as 2,000,000 dead.
I don't know how you view the game... but post-black-plague England seems kinda in the ballpark?

Like, the way npcs/the towns are actually described, Forostar is maaaybe the size of Iceland. It actually comes across as just 4-5 small towns in a tiny tiny area. I assume it's really supposed to represent something more continent sized or at least say, faux fantasy England, and we just handwave away all the scale issues. Particularly with the extreme change in biomes, it should be "kind of large", it's just no mud codes an entire Aisa or North American continent with every small settlement included.

Given all that... I'm pretty sure post black death england would've been a wasteland--losing a 1/3 of the population is just a staggering loss.

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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#25 Post by Arsicas » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:20 am

Also, regarding disguise, it used to be possible to actually tell that someone was disguised, I'd assume based on your awareness skill. Was this removed? I don't recall seeing that message anytime recently. Or maybe the current rogues just have a better disguise skill. But that could give an indication of whether your character *should* actually be able to see through a disguise or not.
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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#26 Post by Zehren » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:22 am

Ioca wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:12 am Disguises exist so that people can go and do their sneaky business and not be known as their real self. It doesn't matter what things exist that credit or discredit that, because the intention of one of the hardest to improve and use skills in the game that has super strict requirements even for being used is indeed so that someone can roleplay being unknown to others.

I like you, but it doesn't matter if you don't like that. It's just how it's supposed to be, and I've discussed it with admins to know that's exactly how it's supposed to be, and I'd trust the people who designed things more than I trust someone who didn't design them trying to explain what they're meant for.
I'm not arguing that disguises shouldn't be effective, I'm arguing that entangling that with demographics is bollocks.
There's a fail mechanism to disguises to be sure of who the disguised person is.
Of course, if actions during a disguise amounts to a heap of circumstantial evidence, someone should be allowed to use their IC brain. Usually it amounts to a tiny little nugget of circumstantial evidence, though, not a heap.
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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#27 Post by ghalt » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:26 am

Arsicas wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:20 am Also, regarding disguise, it used to be possible to actually tell that someone was disguised, I'd assume based on your awareness skill. Was this removed? I don't recall seeing that message anytime recently. Or maybe the current rogues just have a better disguise skill. But that could give an indication of whether your character *should* actually be able to see through a disguise or not.
You've always been able to see through disguises--I'm not certain how or the edge cases, but I've seen bad disguises that just didn't take. I very much doubt it's removed but it would be difficult to know if a bug was effecting it.

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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#28 Post by Laewyloth » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:28 am

Zehren wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:56 am
ila wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:05 am I'd personally estimate Forostar's populations in the millions at least, and also personally disagree that elves are sparse by any definition.

This is based on actual medieval-time cities having populations in the hundreds of thousands, with numerous cities, and sprawling populations between them (see: the reputation system).
Please find me IRL statistics for a small continent under constant attack (for a thousand years) by two different evil hordes (lilithians + insects), thanks.
Well, let's play a game. It's called, "Extrapolate to seem smarter than you actually are"!

Seeing as how there exists: a transcontinental road, sewage systems, and twin-masted ships - along with three distinct climate zones (arctic, temperate, and equatorial / 'hot' - humid in Ormian, barren in Amsward) we can pick a few likely scenarios and situations.

1) Forostar is mid-to-late medieval Europe (10th-13th century), with an estimated population of 75 million. To say that there constant, violent wars...would be an understatement. Not to mention life-expectancies!
2) Forostar is actually late1800s America (with the creation of the transcontinental railroad and limited immigration). The 1860 census showed an estimated population of 31 Million.
3) Forostar is -actually- more analogous to the 1500s mesoamerica what with its warring cultures, individual pantheons, and more 'tribal' constructs. Estimates put this population around 12 million. With at least 200,000–300,000 in the capital (Teotihuacan).

So we can extrapolate, that no matter how 'empty' we want to pretend Forostar is, it simply -cannot be-. Not given:
  • Its number of large-scale, permanent cities (5, including Eel-Dinner)
  • Its scientific sophistication (putting scribes who used to horde all the magic for themselves aside) in terms of amenities, building materials, and shipbuilding.
  • Its -ability- to continue fighting wars (i.e. assuming a certain number of casualties, a certain birth rate - taking into account the different lifespans of races, etc.) for over 100s of years
Having population numbers in the hundreds, thousands, or hundreds-of-thousands would mean that at some point, the major cities would be overtaken by the faster-breeding races and more successful cultures. If not, then it'd mean the 'evil hordes' would eventually have been destroyed for the same reason (the hordes of insects are breeding slower than the populations are growing, maturing, and taking up the sword in civilized socieities). The fact that nobody has one, that the cities aren't falling apart, and that -trade roads- remain happily open, well-maintained, and traverse the entire continent means...BAM. Big ole populations.

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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#29 Post by Ioca » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:34 am

Zehren wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:22 am Of course, if actions during a disguise amounts to a heap of circumstantial evidence, someone should be allowed to use their IC brain. Usually it amounts to a tiny little nugget of circumstantial evidence, though, not a heap.
I think (bear with me) that this is maybe one thing we can agree on?! There's a slippery slope, but I have no problem with people _suspecting_ someone. This topic is all about the people who know - like, they just -know- - that this random girl who just walked into the room two seconds ago is Aisa. People are doing that, it gets old, it's not fun.

If they did some subtle testing, some actual roleplay about it, if they even interacted with the character for a tiny bit, maybe they'd actually get to see a familiar mannerism under the assumption they wouldn't try to destroy a rogue's life over it. Honestly though, if I even still have the disguise skill which I probably don't, I wouldn't even care to try anymore because of the super sleuths who sometimes (no seriously!) sometimes aren't even around to witness it, or aren't even logged into the game, suddenly just knowing "well, that was Aisa."

Because, as Ghalt pointed out, some people spread it out openly that Aisa could disguise. Well, nobody gets that anymore - basically "I'm not playing with you" because of those people ruining it for no reason except that they get some thrill from knowing secret info nobody else does.

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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#30 Post by Zehren » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:41 am

ghalt wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:18 am
The Black Death reaches England
The summer of 1348 was abnormally wet. Grain lay rotting in the fields due to the nearly constant rains. With the harvest so adversely affected, it seemed certain that there would be food shortages. But a far worse enemy was set to appear.

It isn't clear exactly when or where the Black Death reached England. Some reports at the time pointed to Bristol, others to Dorset. The disease may have appeared as early as late June or as late as August 4. We do know that in mid-summer the Channel Islands were reeling under an outbreak of the plague. From this simple beginning, the disease spread throughout England with dizzying speed and fatal consequences.

The effect was at its worst in cities, where overcrowding and primitive sanitation aided its spread. On November 1 the plague reached London, and up to 30,000 of the city's population of 70,000 inhabitants succumbed. Over the next two years, the disease killed between 30-40% of the entire population. Given that the pre-plague population of England was in the range of 5-6 million people, fatalities may have reached as high as 2,000,000 dead.
I don't know how you view the game... but post-black-plague England seems kinda in the ballpark?

Like, the way npcs/the towns are actually described, Forostar is maaaybe the size of Iceland. It actually comes across as just 4-5 small towns in a tiny tiny area. I assume it's really supposed to represent something more continent sized or at least say, faux fantasy England, and we just handwave away all the scale issues. Particularly with the extreme change in biomes, it should be "kind of large", it's just no mud codes an entire Aisa or North American continent with every small settlement included.

Given all that... I'm pretty sure post black death england would've been a wasteland--losing a 1/3 of the population is just a staggering loss.
Sure it's a staggering loss, especially considering infrastructure matches the status quo. But 4 million people on 130395 square kilometers (looked up the area of England) gives a population density of 30.6 per km2. This is twice the current population density of Norway, which is about 15 per km2. Doesn't sound like a wasteland to me! I guess around 5 per km2 is when things would start to seem wastelandish to me. Of course, that just adjusts from the status quo IRL experiences :D

Area of England: 130395 km2
Area of Iceland: 103000 km2 :)
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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#31 Post by Zehren » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:05 am

Ioca wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:34 am
Zehren wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:22 am Of course, if actions during a disguise amounts to a heap of circumstantial evidence, someone should be allowed to use their IC brain. Usually it amounts to a tiny little nugget of circumstantial evidence, though, not a heap.
I think (bear with me) that this is maybe one thing we can agree on?! There's a slippery slope, but I have no problem with people _suspecting_ someone. This topic is all about the people who know - like, they just -know- - that this random girl who just walked into the room two seconds ago is Aisa. People are doing that, it gets old, it's not fun.

If they did some subtle testing, some actual roleplay about it, if they even interacted with the character for a tiny bit, maybe they'd actually get to see a familiar mannerism under the assumption they wouldn't try to destroy a rogue's life over it. Honestly though, if I even still have the disguise skill which I probably don't, I wouldn't even care to try anymore because of the super sleuths who sometimes (no seriously!) sometimes aren't even around to witness it, or aren't even logged into the game, suddenly just knowing "well, that was Aisa."

Because, as Ghalt pointed out, some people spread it out openly that Aisa could disguise. Well, nobody gets that anymore - basically "I'm not playing with you" because of those people ruining it for no reason except that they get some thrill from knowing secret info nobody else does.
Of course. Rogues usually get "found out" in suspect manner, and there's typically always a bunch of trouble. Especially because most PCs are played with more concern for items than their life - and not because of warped character drives in a good IC manner, but because of the OOC item/death hassle involved. It's part of why I'm in favour of an overt thief guild instead of the secretive thief guild as it exists. The other part is simply that I believe overt thieves have a lot more fun play room. We've talked about all that before, though.
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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#32 Post by Delia » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:23 am

An overt thief guild would work better as like I have said before, any play that depends on a secret not coming out is doomed to failure.

Disguises have always been a little troublesome when there is very little effort behind them as... If it looks like a thief, walks like thief and talks like a thief, well... People have been hanged for less. Calling out disguises has never been pretty though and it is something that has always been a problem. It is too easy to assume you have reasonable evidence when in actuality you have tons of player experience and could call out thieves blindfolded... As a player.

As for population of Forostar, I do not think any RL comparison is viable but I feel it would be a fun fact to put on the table. Also, how is population control happening anyway? Named npc's never truly die and one should assume many of the invisibles come back too, if not all of them. What if no one never truly dies save for spectacular circumstances?
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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#33 Post by Melendil » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:14 am

Hmmm, how would it be if perception of characters was made more generally fuzzy?

Right now, if a new character enters you get a message with either a characteristic description or their name if you've remembered them. Now, that's instantaneous recognition of a new person entering the immediate vicinity, regardless of what my character is actually doing. Could be talking, looking at clouds, staring contest with a cat, any number of possible things which mean they're not paying attention to people wandering back and forth.

How about making entry messages more based on the awareness skill? Low skill or a fumble might make you unaware that someone has entered or left the room at all. Better skill would produce messages like someone entered the room/someone entered from the north/an elf entered from the north/someone leaves/etc. This wouldn't be the same as hiding or being hidden. The character would still be visible to a look command, but then perhaps the details would be diminished until you look more closely at them. E.g. You look and see "An elf" or perhaps "A male elf" until you "look elf" and get the full description. This would suggest you're seeing them from behind or at a bad angle and have put the effort into actually checking who they are. Again, a high enough awareness skill could make this instantaneous recognition with just a general look without having to stare directly at them. Disguises could then factor in by making it a little harder to identify the person without it completely blocking their identity. Stuff that can be played off as fashion choices, like a hood. Uniforms could even replace the descriptor initially (e.g. you see "a Cleric")

Difficulty would also depend on terrain (much less likely to notice someone in a forest than a meadow) room size (it's easier to notice someone entering a cramped space), and presumed VNPC population (you're not likely to pay attention to the comings and goings of everyone in a marketplace but are probably going to notice everyone entering a quiet temple), level of mana (tired people are more likely to not be paying attention), sobriety (similar reasons), and darkness (which I assume already affects awareness).

Things like talking, direct emotes (i.e. poking someone in the ribs), or combat (not just against the observer) would cause instant recognition because that person has suddenly become noteworthy.

This could allow people to pass through areas but being seen as "someone enters, someone exits", or seen entering but not leaving, or vice versa. This would also give people incentive to hold private conversations in less trafficked areas. It snarls up knowing where people are going or where they've been a bit as well. This would also allow for more sneaking as it becomes acceptable that maybe you just didn't see that person come in.

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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#34 Post by ferranifer » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:41 am

I think the solution to this problem is to remove uncertainty, not to increase it.

A legit suggestion: remove all anonymity mechanics.

Masks for Sathos and others are really more of a cool flavor thing than anything you rely on mechanically. Their purpose is to make it hard to know which of the sathos you are, not to make it hard to know you're a satho. The game would lose a bit of flavor if they were removed, but mechanically and socially it really wouldn't have any impact. Masks also do not change behavior. You are not likely to commit more heinous acts masked than unmasked. It is also very unlikely that you will avoid repercussions for your actions when you're a masked baddie. This is a good thing, bad social actions should have repercussions.

Disguises on the other hand allow players to get away with absolutely anything at all and do indeed change behavior, to the worse. There are no social repercussions when you are disguised and you can ignore all the behavior control mechanisms because of this. This creates an incredibly toxic environment where people is paranoid about disguises and disguised people behave like absolute psychopaths. By controlling the OOC narrative of disguise and the existence of a rogues guild, you are removing people's agency to act on IC information. (And losing the opportunity to create engaging, interesting dynamics for both rogues and non-rogues, but that's just my humble opinion.)

Do rogues REALLY need carte blanche to get away with anything they do? Why do they need these protection mechanisms that nobody else has?

It might look like disguises are necessary because theft and mischief is so badly seen (and has constantly been badly abused). I think what needs to be addressed is how bad theft is perceived and addressed by the Law. A cojoined effort by all players in good faith to make sure that:
A) Theft is NOT worse than murder.
B) Theft is socially pleasant. (This means the thieves need to engage as thieves, integrate by being useful and provide methods for people to recover their things).

But to do that, you first need accountability.

Disguise as an OOC mechanism has never and will never work because:
A) You're removing other people's agency and asking them to act stupid when you ask them to ignore blatant tells. You will never agree on what's a tell and what isn't.
B) You're making it impossible for people to act exclusively IC when you tell them OOC what you expect them to ignore. This is pervasive in the game right now about many topics and it's a huge issue.
C) It is impossible to stop OOC information and very easy to misrepresent its source, nature, accuracy or relevance. This creates an environment imbued with mistrust and paranoia.

It is very easy, as demonstrated time and time again, to simply accuse people of OOC misconduct to solve the IC issues you encounter.

And the beauty of it all? You don't need any code support to remove your anonymity. Simply stop using it.

An alternative would be to give rogues masks that are clearly a rogue item AND then remove disguise. This would at least add accountability to the rogues as an institution and put them on par with other "evil" masks. And yes, theft is evil. Then people can interact with them, hold them accountable, negotiate with them, validate them and let them live harmonically with the rest of the game. Then we can all see them as a necessary evil and accept them. This is how it used to work in the past and it was leaps and bounds better than what we have now.

Finally, some ideas on how to legitimize roguer-y (some of these have been discussed in the past and I'm just reminding people that we've had this discussion before). I will stick to those ideas that don't reveal anything, but there are more based on stuff that is not so commonly known:
1) Enemies have tools/items in their inventory that they use in combat and can be stolen. E.g. potions, throwing weapons.
2) Lootable treasure lockboxes.
3) Black market vendors that require you to liase, populated by the game, not just by player theft.

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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#35 Post by Delia » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:26 am

Eloquently put. Could not have said it better. Disguise is very cool... but the same bickering has now continued for over 15 years.
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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#36 Post by roxvod » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:38 am

As with most ability, skill, and power, they are all beholden to the imagination of the user. If the thieves were a more implied and an explicit part of forostar even the disguise mechanics could be used for very good character interaction and roleplay. What seems to be the issue is that very few people have used the thief skills to create roleplay instead of gaining an edge, and this has led to controversial arguments. I agree with ferranifer on every point that was made.

Whoops, I meant: :lol:

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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#37 Post by Lauriert » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:46 pm

I could never understand why someone who is outlawed somewhere puts on a mask to commit crimes.

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Re: Identifying unknown characters

#38 Post by ferranifer » Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:39 am

Lauriert wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:46 pm I could never understand why someone who is outlawed somewhere puts on a mask to commit crimes.
It makes it harder for people to target you specifically in a multiplayer combat situation, but the main usage of masks is to divert guilt from the individual to the organization. This can work if the organization:
A) exists
B) has political leverage

Commiting crimes when you are outlawed solidifies your status as an outlaw. It's easier to negotiate the removal of blanket outlaws to organizations than to individuals. It 'dilutes' the blame, so to speak.

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