Unending outlawry

[Ioca]

Hello!

This tiny rant is about outlawry. From time to time, laws will be broken in the cities, or sometimes there might be other sinister motives at work to have someone outlawed or banished. I think that's fine!

However, I think there should always be an "out." There should _always_ be a way to resolve a conflict given some time and effort. I would say this applies to banishment, outlawry, and even the Taniel condemnation, which is essentially the same as being banished without a judge involved.

But if there is no way out of it, what is it accomplishing? Generally, people who are outlawed for a good reason actually abide by their status and accept the punishment. But I've noticed that people who are punished unfairly, for long periods of time, tend to lash out, because revenge _is_ all they can do if nobody is willing to give a chance to fix things.

Of course, revenge usually entails breaking more laws to assault and/or murder the unreasonable people who won't give any other option, so the cycle seems to continue and continue. As an OOC matter, what fun is it to have an unending conflict with very little or no roleplay involved, aside from retaliation techniques? And as an IC matter, shouldn't a city eventually want peace with a criminal who agrees to follow the law if they actually had a chance to do so?

End of rant!

[Lauriert]

Unless I'm mistaken, it's always possible to end your status as an outlaw if you pay the required amount of money, unless you're a darkelf and it's Elvandar you're thinking of.

[Ioca]

Unfortunately not! In the case of Elvandar, what's supposed to happen is that the judge is required to follow the laws created by the council as per an OOC game rule that is written either on the plaque or scroll, I forget which.

But as it is, Elvandar's laws have been written so that no particular fines are required. The judge is free to insist on any punishment they wish. And, no, not a rant, but just a fact: the current judge is violating the OOC rules and not caring about the laws, so it can seem that the punishments are unable to be fixed.

Quick edit:

I briefly thought about writing another forum thread to describe what I consider "The Cycle of Unending Conflict!" The problem there is that it is possible to be in a perpetual, unending position that can never be resolved, with permanent outlawry as the outcome. It goes something like this:

Become an enemy of the Taniel church somehow -> immediately be outlawed in Elvandar -> the crusade inherits the Taniel church's enemy list and declares you an enemy -> your old enemies, the darkelves, suddenly become your friends because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" -> all good people now see you as "evil" -> and then... you're back at the start of the cycle, where the Taniel church considers you an enemy.

Even if you don't ever become a darkelf in that case, and you play your character as a relatively good character, there is nothing you can do at all if some petty players want to be problematic.

[Lauriert]

Then I suppose the character in question would need to speak with the judge about it. Mogwai was outlawed from Elvandar for ages but that was eventually lifted.

[Ioca]

I edited my response to you above so you may not have seen it! However, in that case, if the judge is willing to violate the OOC rules and make up laws to where "any enemy of the Taniel church or crusaders is an outlaw," then it can not be resolved.

[ila]

gone

[Lauriert]

I'm not sure OOC rules are being violated. You can argue that the judge is wrong about how things should work, but if he is, then the IC justice system will be screwed up IC. My point being, I don't think the player is trying to OOCly harass you. I think it's just that the char is new at being judge and may not fully understand things. I'm no expert on such things myself, I just don't think there's any OOC malice here.

[Arsicas]

I’ve always thought that outlawry was a pretty harsh penalty because it does lock a character out from a large part of the game. I think it can limit roleplay and conflict in some ways because you don’t want to piss off the people in charge or you get that harsh punishment. And sometimes people were outlawed for pretty minor crimes. So I would say it should be used only for major crimes like murder or as a last resort if someone refuses to follow the laws.

However, I do feel like there is usually an “out” except in cases like darkelves/Sathonites being outlawed from Elvandar because that’s a pretty firm rule. (Although didn’t Delmon manage to get unoutlawed for a bit? ) But this usually involves showing penitence and willingness to follow the laws, maybe some restitution.

I think the problem in Aisa and Ila’s situation is that they felt their treatment was unfair and retaliated pretty extremely. So now, of course, it makes sense to keep them outlawed because look what they did! And at this point, it will probably take quite some time and effort for them to be allowed back into society. I don’t think that sucking up to the authorities is necessarily the only way to resolve a conflict. Ars managed to get back into Arborea by simply biding his time and allowing for some political maneuvering. But increasing the conflict is probably not going to get you the result you want unless the result you want is more conflict.

[Lauriert]

Delmon got the guards to stop attacking him for a bit. He was still banned from the city, but nobody hunted him for a time.

[Arsicas]

I'm not sure OOC rules are being violated. You can argue that the judge is wrong about how things should work, but if he is, then the IC justice system will be screwed up IC. My point being, I don't think the player is trying to OOCly harass you. I think it's just that the char is new at being judge and may not fully understand things. I'm no expert on such things myself, I just don't think there's any OOC malice here.

I'd agree with this. The judge did give an IC explanation of his actions. And I think the laws can be open to interpretation.

[Ioca]

I think the problem in Aisa and Ila’s situation is that they felt their treatment was unfair and retaliated pretty extremely. So now, of course, it makes sense to keep them outlawed because look what they did!

Here's a bit of a problem - the elf known as Aisahi has not retaliated at all, unless it's referring to the initial time Ceinna taunted her and twinkled her eyes to make fun of condemning her for no reason, when she and Brand were begging to be attacked -to- outlaw her, which happened because I literally wanted away from them and their supposed RP!

That little rant aside, the elf known as Aisa, despite some people having insight from the who list and OOC chat, did not participate in any activities that would harm Elvandar or any of its citizens in retaliation. It's frustrating that some OOC "of course we know what happened" knowledge seems to have become canon in the game. :<

[Lauriert]

People think Aisa attacked Elvandar for IC reasons. It's widely believed that Aisa is able to disguise herself. Because of multiple elves spotted with her proportions and skill set. The fact there was an elf of Aisa's proportions and skill set seen attacking Elvandar with Ila, known to be Aisa's best friend, and the spotting of similar elves in the past, Aisa is very suspected of action against Elvandar. Now, if she's really innocent, then it's unfortunate for her. She's the victim of people's suspicions and unfortunate circumstances. But all of this is very much IC. If Aisa is innocent, she's been thrust in an unfortunate situation.

[Arsicas]

I think the problem in Aisa and Ila’s situation is that they felt their treatment was unfair and retaliated pretty extremely. So now, of course, it makes sense to keep them outlawed because look what they did!

Here's a bit of a problem - the elf known as Aisahi has not retaliated at all, unless it's referring to the initial time Ceinna taunted her and twinkled her eyes to make fun of condemning her for no reason, when she and Brand were begging to be attacked -to- outlaw her, which happened because I literally wanted away from them and their supposed RP!

That little rant aside, the elf known as Aisa, despite some people having insight from the who list and OOC chat, did not participate in any activities that would harm Elvandar or any of its citizens in retaliation. It's frustrating that some OOC "of course we know what happened" knowledge seems to have become canon in the game. :<

Well, actually, I don't think that Aisa is outlawed, only banished, cause yeah, she's only been publicly known to do the attack she did on Ceinna I think. But there's certainly been some suggestion by some characters that she's responsible for other things (whether that's OOC based or not--though that's another issue).

[Ioca]

People think Aisa attacked Elvandar for IC reasons. It's widely believed that Aisa is able to disguise herself. Because of multiple elves spotted with her proportions and skill set. The fact there was an elf of Aisa's proportions and skill set seen attacking Elvandar with Ila, known to be Aisa's best friend, and the spotting of similar elves in the past, Aisa is very suspected of action against Elvandar. Now, if she's really innocent, then it's unfortunate for her. She's the victim of people's suspicions and unfortunate circumstances. But all of this is very much IC. If Aisa is innocent, she's been thrust in an unfortunate situation.

This is absolutely terrible RP. Every word of that is terrible RP. Anyone who roleplays that is roleplaying poorly.

Aisa looks like Aisa. Any other elf who doesn't look like Aisa, who doesn't dress like Aisa, who doesn't _FIGHT_ like Aisa, who doesn't _use the same weapons_ as Aisa, who doesn't talk like Aisa... is not Aisa.

I wrote something mean in this spot - but I deleted it. Needless to say, let me tell you something: I have the log of that whole thing. Only one person looked at the elf in question. Nobody appraised her. Aside from it metagaming to "just know" some elf is another elf because of them being a similar size - nobody even so much as appraised her to know that information. Terrible RP.

[Lauriert]

People suspect Aisa of being able to disguise herself based on what the elves in question actually do. Like I said, similar skill set, similar size. And besides, people are usually quick to point fingers and blame.

[Ioca]

I'd actually love some examples of that! What exactly has Aisa _ever_ done that lets someone suspect that she ever, in her entire life, has worn a disguise of any sort? Has she ever been caught putting on one? Ever been caught removing one? Ever been caught saying her real name while using an assumed identity? Has she ever so much as been seen using the same weapons? No? Because the answer is indeed no.

Now, you keep saying her fighting style... And I'm curious about that too, because Aisa _likely_ uses entirely different specials than her supposed disguised personas would. I don't think anyone has access to her skill list, and I'm not trying to brag here, but she has a huge, huge variety of things to pick from - so yeah, if you can "just know" that some elf is Aisa because she used the slam special once...

But yeah, examples? I'd love some.

As an aside, and to be slightly combative, I've only heard of a single soul in the game roleplaying "just knowing" who that random elf was and claiming she was involved in any of that raid business. A soul who didn't look at her. Didn't appraise her. Barely made an appearance. Hasn't interacted with her to ask her. I definitely don't approve.

[Lauriert]

Well, there are two instances. One was a elf who came into Elvandar. Same proportions as Aisa. She used a name the people didn't recognize. She gave substantial money to Lauriana, known to be a friend to Aisa. She then tried backstabbing Yngwe, something that Ceinna and Brand claim Aisa can do. Aisa had every reason to be angry at Yngwe. She was seen wielding a rapier and a dagger, the style Aisa is most well known for.

The other, of course, is the attack on Elvandar by Ila. This elf had similar proportions, seemed to be quite capable, and once again, used the fighting style Aisa is best known to use. She would also be thought to be likely to help Ila.

[Ioca]

Well, there are two instances. One was a elf who came into Elvandar. Same proportions as Aisa.

Again, going to keep continuing to say that "appraising someone and thinking they're a different elf" is ridiculous. There are numerous _guards_ in Elvandar who have the same proportions as Aisa. Elvandar is filled with many elves of many sizes.

She used a name the people didn't recognize.

That's usually the case when you meet someone new. That isn't suspicious.

She gave substantial money to Lauriana, known to be a friend to Aisa.

That's not suspicious at all.

She then tried backstabbing Yngwe, something that Ceinna and Brand claim Aisa can do.

That's a complete lie. You weren't present for that. The elf who backstabbed Yngwe was not the elf you met in the market. I'm gonna call this a pretty clear case of metagaming if I've ever seen one.

Also, I'm going to confuse you, and maybe change your whole world! I'll divulge a little OOC secret you don't seem to actually know. There _is more than one female elf in the game that is a rogue_. Literally. Despite you having zero evidence to know that anyone is disguised, there is, there are, they do play from time to time. Now knowing that, I wonder if you'll revise some things.

[Lauriert]

You can argue that they didn't have enough evidence to accuse Aisa, but remember our characters aren't us. It can sometimes take a lot less to persuade them something is true than what it would take more sensible people. Aisa can call out this for being BS if she learns IC, yes. But remember, stuff like this really does happen. Someone gets accused of something they didn't do because of circumstances that just so happen to point to them. And, knowing how the high ups in Elvandar feel about Aisa, you know they're all too eager to point blame at her. I'm not saying don't be outraged, I'm be outraged... as Aisa. She has every reason to be mad if she's innocent.

Think about this. What fits the church's narrative about Aisa better? "Oh, look, this assassin and thief was probably Aisahi! She looks kind of similar, and does somewhat similar things, so it must be her!" As opposed to "There's a mysterious elf in town who tried to backstab Yngwe." If the church and those loyal to it want to smear Aisa, they will take opportunities to do so even if they're flimsy.

[Ioca]

I mean... If people are going to roleplay poorly, or not roleplay, and just use what they know OOC as IC canon... I can't stop them?

But I can voice and continue to voice that it is bad RP that I think people should aspire to revise. You're not going to get an inch about Aisa being a disguised elf - nobody's ever, _ever_ caught her doing such a thing, in any way, shape, or form, aside from OOC speculation and the "I know the answer to this mystery" stuff some people seem to enjoy.