The not so dire consequences

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Brand
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The not so dire consequences

#1 Post by Brand » Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:55 am

Recently the Archbishop came across a young elf who was picking locks. Based on some more unique characteristics, the Archbishop felt this was the same elf he had heard of being involved in a few other instances of attempted thievery and general underhandedness. Did this encounter end in said elf being smited? Nope. The player behind the character roleplayed right on through it, warning was given, an understanding evolved, and the encounter ended up being fun, memorable and completely non violent. Whether this character was an actual thief or a wannabe, there was no heavy handed character killing consequence that made a player abandon the character. The consequences are not so dire as is being presented.
Contrary to popular (not so popular) opinion, the outlaw hammer is not heavily wielded by the big cities. Shutting a city off to a character is not something taken lightly. If someone is outed as a thief the problem then becomes an opinion about the totality of the revealed characters actions up to that point, and when the exposed character is then connected rightly or wrongly to other wicked acts the consequences do indeed multiply. However this is a social dynamic that plays itself out in the daily news across the world. People are accused of many acts of which they are not guilty. Is it fun or fair to have this same dynamic exist in a fantasy game world? Absolutely not, however this does not preclude the fact that this game is played with other actual people who will still be guided by many social principles IC as they are OOC.

I believe that if the thieves as a guild could decide on and publicize some niche they could fill which could be useful for adventurers, they would find a semi legit purpose that could fuel their public persona while they continue to engage discretely in the more nefarious business of their guild.

In summary, getting outed as a rogue isnt a character killer. And people dont necessarily hate rogues, they hate rogues who steal from -them- without cause. Find a purpose for the rogues to be useful to the world at large. Make the rogues a good 'ally' to have. Rogues can and have added some cool flavor to the mud over the years. Many logs have been made of the interactions and I would hate to see them be pulled or just abandoned.

Ioca
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Re: The not so dire consequences

#2 Post by Ioca » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:09 pm

Dunno if this was directed at me or not, but I assume so? Well, I don't play Geas anymore lately, nor a rogue anymore. Being outlawed for thievery is more of a niche thing since the rogues I've played with tended not to actually mess with other players - and that there've only been one or two rogues anyway. It's usually more the case that 'thievery' is brought up and tacked on when someone decides to bring it into the game that they just randomly know that someone has the disguise skill. A 'known' rogue is at risk of mechanical penalties. Until a bit after the middle of last year, they were crippling, to the point a known rogue _would_ have had to quit and/or leave the guild and probably pursue other avenues of RP - but they've been lessened a bit so that it's not an impossible nightmare. It always depended on the behavior of the judges and such regardless, not necessarily the Taniel priesthood, since you don't actually run the game despite magical thoughts otherwise.

So as not to confuse this with other recent events in the past year, I'd say that said archbishop's heavy-handed responses are usually reserved for when his wife gets jealous, or for when there's an OOC dispute and someone won't go along with your IC plans when asked/harassed OOC because it'd be unfun to force the hands of other players. It's not your responses to thievery or rogues that make you unfun to play with - it's just everything else.

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Arsicas
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Re: The not so dire consequences

#3 Post by Arsicas » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:56 pm

I think my issue is that, in the past, certain players, once getting wind that a certain character is a rogue, either IC or OOC, have relentlessly tried to “out” them. And some have been harassed to the point of quitting the game. Maybe it’s just an issue with certain players. But there have been instances with rogues even recently, like Ioca has said, where characters have seemed to pry for any sort of evidence to out them as a rogue. It feels like the distrust goes both ways, but it would be nice if we could at least trust other players to act in a way that doesn’t ruin anyone else’s day, even if there’s distrust among the characters.
Duncan hisses in Common: love not keepzss zssomeone alive
You speak softly in Common: Sometimes it's all that keeps one
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You smile slightly.

Delmon
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Re: The not so dire consequences

#4 Post by Delmon » Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:13 pm

There should not be major mechanical issues with heavy handed mechanical responses. I do not know if this is the case or not, but if a rogue is outlawed (whether a heavy handed response or not is opinion), rogues should be able to operate openly to achieve objectives (stealing in cities and disguising for example). If they are outlawed (or found out), they should be able to operate without losing tools and objectives. This is what I mean by not having a major mechanical issue - the character should be able to access tools of the rogues even as an open rogue. Then what is there to complain about disguises? Just re-disguise and walk into the city. So what if they are found out while in the city disguised? That would be part of the risk/fun/sneak/hide/avoid while achieving objectives.

In summary, make Rogues open, eliminate the incentives that require rogues to be hidden and the coded mechanically driven frustrations that can come along with being "outed."

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Re: The not so dire consequences

#5 Post by Ioca » Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:40 pm

I'm so with you Delmon!

It honestly feels like the rogues, in their current incarnation, were designed such that "if you get caught, you've failed as a guild member with your character and now you need to move on." Whether intentionally or not, it also seemed that a successful rogue should always have proper access to Elvandar - so darkelves were excluded from ever being able to mechanically succeed with thiefy guilded-rogue RP just by default. Being outlawed or banished anywhere at all was a "game over" as far as being able to continue leveraging the mechanics for thief-related RP, which is the purpose of the guild.

To make it worse, rogues have to continually do their thing, or they could (in the recent past) reach a point where it was no longer possible to use any of the tools to -do- their thing. They called it "bootstrapping" when I joined, because rogues depend on other rogues to let them _be_ rogues until they can self-sustain themselves. It all sounds pretty bad, but in theory, for a regular non-darkelf sort of elf just doing thief-related RP, it could actually work out - I never actually got caught doing anything rogue-related in the game. My problems with the rogues all stemmed from what Arsicas said - people doing everything they could to bring their OOC knowledge IC, whether maliciously or not, occasionally with an understanding of the system such that "I'm doing this because I know it'll punish that character."

I think the wizards are more than aware of all the problems, though! It's just a seemingly great big task to fix the guild. I hope nobody takes my calling out of certain ex-rogue players' behavior as meaning that I'd not like to see them changed - I've advocated for it from the start.

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Re: The not so dire consequences

#6 Post by Delmon » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:08 pm

Also, it has been mentioned, it would be good to have a frontman/ guild leader/ or mechanism to interact with the guild as a whole, in the open, to take accountability for the guild. For example, a guild hall outside the city, such as in Ironhold. The guild hall wouldn't have to store all the secrets of the world, but could contain guild stash of gold or something worth protecting with incentives to fill it. I have some other thoughts but the main points are allowing openness, taking accountability, and having freedom from character crushing mechanisms.

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Brand
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Re: The not so dire consequences

#7 Post by Brand » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:00 pm

Ioca wrote: Dunno if this was directed at me or not, but I assume so?
Since I don't know you, likely not about you.


Ioca wrote: So as not to confuse this with other recent events in the past year, I'd say that said archbishop's heavy-handed responses are usually reserved for when his wife gets jealous, or for when there's an OOC dispute and someone won't go along with your IC plans when asked/harassed OOC because it'd be unfun to force the hands of other players. It's not your responses to thievery or rogues that make you unfun to play with - it's just everything else.
Why the personal attacks on my wife or myself? I have made no insults or disparaging remarks directed at you (see above) yet you somehow feel justified to do just that towards me? Well, says more about you I would say.

To Admin: If my confusion and semi emotional response to the above counterpost is inappropriate, I look forward to your feedback. I am simply not used to having my family attacked on this forum.

Ioca
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Re: The not so dire consequences

#8 Post by Ioca » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:05 pm

Brand wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:00 pmWhy the personal attacks on my wife or myself?
Oh, was it a personal attack? I wasn't aware. It's odd that you'd think simply recounting your actions would be considered attacking you. I could refresh your memory with some logs of how you and your wife have behaved in the game both IC and OOC, but we've been through that already. My advice is to own up to the way you've acted and stop trying to pretend that you're above the consequences of how you've made people feel.

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Brand
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Re: The not so dire consequences

#9 Post by Brand » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:31 pm

Making negative comments directed toward or about the players of the game is just spiteful and can indeed be considered a personal attack, as you are attacking the person, and not the game, code, or character in the game.
Ad hominem attacks have no place in these forums, by the by.
I do not know you. So going forward it would be safe to assume that my posts are not directed at you.

Ioca
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Re: The not so dire consequences

#10 Post by Ioca » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:36 pm

Geez, it sure is! I actually have a log of you trying to drive Frowen from the game, and begging me OOC to vote on a proposal to make that easier. Want me to post it?

You're not some angel. I've no clue why you characterized yourself as such to some, but then behave totally differently toward others.

As for not knowing me, that's a weird route to go. You've read every single one of my posts on the forums. Did you know it shows the names of all the logged-in people reading a thread at the bottom? Plenty of mine have been about you in particular, and the way you've behaved that's thus far been unpunished.

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