Lack of RP - powergaming present

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Away with powergaming?

Yes, definetely
7
28%
Yes, but leave a tiny tad
5
20%
Switzerland rocks
4
16%
No, but some small changes would be nice
1
4%
No, leave it as it is
8
32%
 
Total votes: 25

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chara
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#21 Post by chara » Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:56 am

Considering that the subject of this thread is powergaming - isn't powergaming usually considered to be putting more of an emphasis on your skill numbers than on what would be in-character? In that light, I don't really see how skill decreases or having to type commands to find herbs are relevant to the subject. Not that they aren't interesting ideas, because they are - but wouldn't you say that powergaming doesn't equal combat, it equals obsessing over stats? Isn't a person that worries about his/her juggling or herbalism skills decreasing as much of a powergamer as someone who practices combat moves during a conversation?

Perhaps the problem is more that there aren't enough perceived advantages to roleplay. Perhaps finding more useful goals for roleplay, such as building political alliances or converting more people to your viewpoint would be more effective. For example, I've witnessed a number of times when newbies have been ignored by the older players, instead of being perceived as a real opportunity for strengthening their guilds and creating alliances, which is a shame.

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nogem
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#22 Post by nogem » Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:55 am

I don't think it really has gotten off of the subject. If there is a problem with people powergaming too much there may be gameplay related causes, and that's all that the other ideas have really gotten into.

I don't think the rate of skill degradation is unrelated. For players to get into that next good ic situation they will naturally first weigh the ooc cost/benifit of allowing the character to get involved. For some people, allowing their character's abilities to degrade and having to relearn them after doing pure rp for all of a day isn't worth letting their character get into that situation. If the degradation rate where slowed a bit, or skill recovery sped up, this would reduce some of the 'risk' involved in taking the time to do some good rp.

The more interactive non-combat things are, the more likely characters are to want to get involved in non-combat things, the more likely we are to have more characters that aren't worried about getting/staying strong/fast/skilled enough to survive and attack from <insert enemy name here>.
You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.

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chara
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#23 Post by chara » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:16 pm

But again, you're assuming that powergaming only involves combat. Why can't powergaming involve herb searching or gem cutting as well? To me, powergaming is worrying more about your stats than about what your character would realistically spend his or her day doing. I don't really see a difference in terms of powergaming whether he or she is spending the day herb searching or in combat, since they both involve the same level of RP.

If there are gameplay-related reasons for powergaming, by all means, let's discuss them. But I don't think that powergaming happens only in terms of combat skills.

I would think that if you're not using those skills, you also don't _need_ those skills to be playing in character. That's the beauty of the learning-by-doing system.

Also, do you think it's really a benefit for the characters to sit around all day RPing and using no useful skills? Do you think it's a benefit for the mud in general? Why or why not?

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nogem
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#24 Post by nogem » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:38 pm

chara wrote:But again, you're assuming that powergaming only involves combat.
I make no such assumption - skill degradation is across the board, more interactive noncom activities can add fun alone and ways that players can play together too. Can't recall the last time somebody formed a 'herbing' party.
[qoute="chara"]
I would think that if you're not using those skills, you also don't _need_ those skills to be playing in character. [/quote]
Need and want are two very different animals, and the player wanted the skills (combat or otherwise) enough to invest real life time into their character to develop the skills. They don't want to slow and reverse that process to have a series of conversations or other non-skill specific activity.
chara wrote: Also, do you think it's really a benefit for the characters to sit around all day RPing and using no useful skills? Do you think it's a benefit for the mud in general? Why or why not?
This kind of seems an exaggeration of what's been asked for. I don't think a player should be able to do this day in and day out for a real life week and not have skills drop. However, there are other situations *torture anyone? :gasp:* that could go several hours/all day if played well, and the players shouldn't have to worry about the damage they are going to have to undo for having done some heavy RP for a change. More than that, situations like this rarely end at the original situation. Unless the char is a freakin' prick to everybody (either telling them piss off or putting up a post and saying 'go read') they will be spending a lot of time explaining what has happened to others, questioning others about what befell them, with each time involving lots of emoting all the way around in fun cases. One well played event can turn into a couple of day distraction from powergaming fairly easily, especially for a player who is only on/can only be on in short spurts each day or couple of days. IMO it absolutely adds value to game experience.
You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.

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chara
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#25 Post by chara » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:33 am

Kortha wrote: Relearning skills faster would be a good solution to the "I just spent all day rp'ing and now I suck" factor, I think. (And yes, there've been times when I spent all day rp'ing without sitting at the crossing making dirty jokes, but I can't describe it without revealing ic stuff. Yesterday was fun, though. :))
This quote is where that question came from.

I think that if the question here is about powergaming - worrying more about stats than about playing in character - then it would be interesting to talk about ways and methods that could make RP more fun and more beneficial than watching a number go up and down is. While, as I said, the ideas discussed have been interesting, I thought it would be interesting to see some coverage of this point as well.

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nogem
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#26 Post by nogem » Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:01 am

Kill people...

no, that's not it...

panic and run? no....

Systems like the ones being discussed for torture being made available would be great (could name more but it's late, so I refer to prior mentions of my lack of imagination). It creates a sort of in-game guide to players who might not think of certain things, maybe even spurning a bit of creativity in them - and puts across a certain aspect that the Wizzies want in the game for rp in place of the crossing flirting MUDsex that makes some peoples' heads explode. Sure, other players could offer up some other system ideas, but I'm guessing that you guys have certain activities that you enjoy seeing people get to play/playing yourself. Create controls/action-reaction systems to enforce those ideals.
You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.

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Alamar
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Possibilities

#27 Post by Alamar » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:07 pm

I think that the system works pretty well. I think that Kortha is right in that recovering skill points is very slow and the agonizing process of going through it is what makes character constantly train rather than RPing more often. I have to say that I like the idea of having skills get less effective, but I do have a few suggestions:

1) Although practical skill should decrease, theoretical skill should stay the same. When I think of how long it took me to increase those numbers in parenthesis, it's heartbreaking to see them decrease. If that number remained the same, then it might be less of an issue to take awhile out of one's training and do a little more RPing... that is to say peaceful RPing... because I think that combat is a form of rp (anyone who has hunted with me knows that I use emotes to describe my combat actions).

2) Recovering skills should be reconsidered a bit... I think it should be slow to start the recovery process, but once it gets started it should keep right on rolling. When I take a long break from fencing (swords not barbed-wire) in real life it takes me quite awhile to get back into my prior shape, but once I do I get back into the swing of things very quickly. Just a thought for a possible skill solution.

3) I like the numerical values. It gives me a sense of accomplishment when I can see that my skill has hit the 50 mark, 60 mark, etc. If you remove those completely it makes things a bit too mysterious. I like the idea of knowing exactly where my character stands in a particular skill. There is the option of "toggle skilldescription" for those who don't like the numerical values.

I am a fairly new mudder, so these may or may not be interesting points. I think that Golub is right that rping needs to get better, but that can't be solved with wizards. The more the wizards are involved then the more OOC stuff has to happen. It breaks the suspension of disbelief and hurts rping.

That's just my opinion.

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Jegga
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#28 Post by Jegga » Sat May 06, 2006 5:46 pm

I am a powergamer.
I love to kill little virtual monsters... and stuff.
I love to see those little numbers go up and reach astronomic heights, it makes me feel more powerful.
I love to see the "You improve your X skill." I love it so much that I constantly share it with my friends in the game when it happens. I even have a ZMud Trigger that sends "@say X++! Yay!" everytime I get one of those messages.
By the way, I use ZMud. And triggers. I'm sorry about that. I heard they are evil and make your hair fall.
I love to see how that custom weapon I ordered kicks royal ass in PVP.
Oh! I love PVP.
And spending ingame time gathering resources to obtain what I want!
I occasionally run by the crossroad, but never stop there. I'm deeply sorry about that as well and will try to stop and join the conversations there more often. As a badass evildoer with a bandana I'm very interested on what politicians, shaolin, tanielites and crusaders have to say and will love to chitchat with them.
My favourite command is "stats", specially when it tells I have made progress towards being a better person.

And guess what? It's fun.

adanath
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umm

#29 Post by adanath » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:38 pm

Just realize that in many ways such "powergaming" is every bit as much roleplay.
Last edited by adanath on Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Delia
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#30 Post by Delia » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:42 am

Sometimes, characters interests change, be it via natural development from character history, RP, or just because the player has gotten bored how things stand now ( completely acceptable in my books, if handled properly ). Any interest might be quite realistically something that if pursued, will take the character further from being in positions and/or willingness in taking actions to events in the world. It does not automatically note lack of RP, if someone is more of a loner than others its quite silly if that one suddenly engages in full-blown dialogue/emotefest. If someone seems too disinterested or a recluse, and if your character is of that mind, go and challenge him/her/yourself into some interaction.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

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