Lack of RP - powergaming present

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Away with powergaming?

Yes, definetely
7
28%
Yes, but leave a tiny tad
5
20%
Switzerland rocks
4
16%
No, but some small changes would be nice
1
4%
No, leave it as it is
8
32%
 
Total votes: 25

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golub
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Lack of RP - powergaming present

#1 Post by golub » Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:51 am

I think that currently, there is simply too little RP. Actually little is the wrong word, I think the quality is too low. Maybe you want to shoot me now for saying that.. but well, I think there are people "powergaming" (not mentioning any names). I dislike the system allowing it. People suddenly starting to practice combat moves in the middle of a conversation, starts reading a book or things like that. I don't think it belongs in the game. And, the powergaming sort of destroys any sources of a plot or a story.. what usually happens is that either it doesn't concern someone or it does, and there follows a threat "Do like I say or you die", and you know the rest of this shallow story...

Any possibility for something like that to happen is reduced to zero, since the only focus is on one own's ego. It sometimes feels like it's an action game where people try to maximin their characters or character egos instead of doing their best trying to cooperate in roleplay and fit their character into the world and story. Of course, there are problems of few RP-features, but what happend with the roleplaying?

On to the next part of the problem. I think there's far too little detailed history of Geas. There's not much to connect your character's background with, which might explain a part of this problem. Looking at what skills are available, there are four sections if I remember correctly. General, magical, languages and fighting. Most features are also focused around combat, and I'm not surprised if a druid is not too entertained. I'm not saying combat is not roleplaying, but it is also the means of powergaming, which is its bad part. There are also no roleplaying guides which could help players with finding their role or give ideas. I'm just trying to say there is very little, and the focus is badly shifted. There's nothing against the features that exist, they are a great part of the game. Yet, there are also some RP-killers. I personally think that favour checks and "reveals" should require much more, not just a quick glance at someone. I could also say that the quests system has some of these powergaming flaws, but I think I'm not because I noticed some news, which I think is great, so please more of that!

As usual I'm babbling away far too long, but well you see my point: Away with the powergaming, there's no true RP with it.

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chara
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#2 Post by chara » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:28 am

Golub - if you have an idea for a roleplaying guide or for a history, you are welcome to discuss it with the admin or domain lords, as well as any features that you think would add to the atmosphere of the game. It would be much more productive to suggest solutions than to simply attack the gaming style of others. I believe that how to do this has already been covered in the forum.

There are plenty of games that focus only on peaceful activities, with little or no combat. However, Geas was never intended to be that way. Our idea of a fun atmosphere for players is not supposed paragons of good sitting around making daisy chains with mass murderers all day. However, I think that there are a huge number of skills in Geas that encompass both combat and non-combat activities. I don't really see your point there.

I would suggest that a good way to deal with people performing combat moves in the middle of conversations would be to react to them IC. Duck, ask them to put away their weapons, mock them for sleeping with their swords, whatever. This would point out that their activities are noticed and perhaps inappropriate.

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#3 Post by golub » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:09 am

I think you got something wrong. I'm not attacking the playing "style" of others. I'm discussing whether it is a problem or not, not the solution (in case it was a problem). My opinion is that it is clearly a problem. So no, I'm not trying to be "productive" in that sense.

The idea was also not to discuss whether Geas should be a peaceful game or not. I think I even said that I think combat can be RP, so I don't see why you associate with that. Concerning the number of skills, I think we all know how many fighting skills there are. I hope I don't have to write a list and compare it with the number corresponding RP features??

And last, yes, we could go bury our heads in that sand. But I don't see why I would want to do that either. There is a problem, and this post was made to discuss it.

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#4 Post by chara » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:25 am

You're clearly not discussing "if" there is a problem, since you say "There is a problem." My suggestion is to come up with solutions to a problem you perceive.

As wizards, we come up with solutions to problems we perceive all the time. For example, a problem I am working on is that I don't think the world is very newbie-friendly. Other possible current problems are "the world isn't big enough" and "players are too passive" and "there are a lot of typos and features that don't work properly." Wizards work to repair these and other problems all the time.

If you see a problem, I heartily applaud coming up with ideas and suggestions to right them. A roleplay guide for our website or more ideas for background are ideas you've had that you can work on (with input from wizards). Or, as I suggested, help people to become more like the RPers you'd like to see by responding to them IC.

This isn't a matter of hiding in sand, but rather a matter of priorities and perspectives.

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#5 Post by golub » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:35 am

I really don't see why saying "There is a problem" contradicts me starting a discusstion about it. Yes, it's my opinion that there is a problem. The idea is that others will post theirs and we get a view of the field? Or?

I'm at the phase before proposing the solution: the acknowledgement of a problem.

Now seriously, since you seem to have a problem with this discussion, what is the real problem? I don't think I have offended anyone, have I? Or is it a too delicate matter to be discussed? What is it? If you don't want to participate in the discussion, simply don't. I don't mean that personally or anything, but why may not this discussion exist? Just put it out clear.

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#6 Post by chara » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:15 am

Umm... I think you are the one with the problem. I'm stating my opinion - or am I somehow not allowed to do that? When did I ever say you're not permitted to talk about whatever you want? What makes you think that I could even forbid you from discussing anything?

My opinion is that it's useless to say "there's a problem and someone else should solve it." My opinion is that it's bloody easy to sit around and criticize, but much harder to actually get up and do anything about it. My opinion is that if you want to actually do something about the problem, I'll help you do it.

To me, that would be a discussion with some actual use. A discussion which, I'd like to say, I was participating in.

But apparently, you're just interested in hearing yourself talk, and maybe raising a hallelujah chorus. In that case, go for it.

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#7 Post by nogem » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:41 am

Aside from the nifty arguing.....

I would say a potential problem with stories developing/players wanting to powergame might be the speed at which skill degradation occurs. I like that it occurs, it just seems like all characters are somewhat mentally deficient when they can forget a good bit of how to do something when they don't do it for all of an ic week. Perhaps this could be slowed a bit or, even better/more realistic, slowed a bit at higher skill levels to keep players from avoiding more passive rp situations for fear of losing skills? Maybe (I hate to put this out there) even slow the learning rate a bit at higher levels to compensate this?

Just to compare to real life a moment:

I have rebuilt probably a couple hundred diesel pneumatic brake systems. I know the schematic inside and out for the standard system. I could still rebuild one of these systems in a very short/industrially competitive time if I needed to. - I haven't rebuilt one of these systems in over 4 years.

I just tested a software configuration that required 5 hours of set up using protocols I've never used before, so it took me 12 hours to set up instead. When I was done I was able to explain the configuration to a coworker well enough for them to do the same test. I finished this Wednesday of last week. Today, I have no idea what the hell I did/was doing.
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#8 Post by golub » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:42 am

I'm the one with the problem? So you've gone on to a personal level now? Are you serious? I don't understand it. What have I done to offend you?

I would gladly write roleplaying guides for Geas, but I don't see the point of it if 95% of the players aren't going to use them or the wizards don't like them.

I understand that you're tired of critisism which isn't constructive at all, but sometimes it's no idea to suggest solutions for things which noone conceives as a problem.

You're not discussing the topic, you're discussing this on a meta level. You're discussing the discussion and you seem to get personally offended by it. Why would you not be allowed to state your opinion? And in what way have you debated whether the RP issue is an issue?

You haven't written anything which touches on the subject, and you're saying I should "send in my RP guide" instead of discussing this. You wrote on several places of "how to do it". Why are you trying to avoid the real question? I didn't want hints on how to replace the discussion, I wanted one. You didn't write a line about the topic yet, but a whole bunch of other ones about your ideas of improvement of my post.

This is getting ridiculous. I'm not raising a halleluja chorus or listening to myself. I'm posting on the forum for a reason.

Could we please start to discuss the topic instead of the discussion?

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#9 Post by Abharsair » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:47 am

This poll is comparable to let's say "Should Geas have a bigger playerbase?". It's kind of easy to agree to that, but it would be more useful to actually have tangible suggestions and ideas on how to achieve it. That's when it gets more difficult and the discussion might turn out to be less unanimous.

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Kortha
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#10 Post by Kortha » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:49 am

I've noticed the same thing. I think a lot of the bad or nonexistent rp is caused by 2 things.

1. Skills degrade so fast that you can't get in much rp if you don't want them to degrade, especially if you have a lot of skills. I don't worry too much about this, but a lot of players kill stuff constantly just so they won't forget how. If it was possible for the code to detect rp somehow, then the skill rot rate could be adjusted depending on how much you sit around rp'ing.

2. People who don't know how to rp to begin with, or are unfamiliar with the ins and outs of tshaharks, for example. Most of these can be helped, if we explain stuff to them and give them good examples to learn from. I agree that we could use a rp guide of some sort, as well as more details about the cultures of the various races. This is why I put the stuff about dwarves on the wiki.

As for non-combat stuff to do, I think the best solution to that is to have more crafts, and for the magic system to be finished. However, that just involves a lot of patience and hoping the wizzes have time to do the stuff they've got planned.
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#11 Post by Abharsair » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:32 am

Kortha wrote:1. Skills degrade so fast that you can't get in much rp if you don't want them to degrade, especially if you have a lot of skills. I don't worry too much about this, but a lot of players kill stuff constantly just so they won't forget how. If it was possible for the code to detect rp somehow, then the skill rot rate could be adjusted depending on how much you sit around rp'ing.
Since the difference between a skill of 99 and 100 is pretty much solely psychological and completely negligible from a gameplay point of view, we could change the skill display to only give you a very approximate idea of how good you are. After all, there's the saying "out of sight, out of mind", and it would completely take away the urge to get that point back, giving one the time and opportunity to roleplay.

I'd also like to add that sitting around and chatting does not always qualify as roleplay.

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#12 Post by Devi » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:37 am

I agree with three points here:

The two by Kortha (Kor is good at nailing things on the head. She's like a hammer!) and the one about not enough non-combat skills.

I think adding more information to the main website (not just the wiki) would be a great solution to Kor's second problem, especially since it would increase the consistancy of the world. Things could even be added icly through the library in Arborea or npcs who could explain aspects of Forostar (fashion, food, cultural norms, etc.). Armageddon has an AMAZING site that does the very same thing for its mud. I think its a fine example because it addresses just about every issue that would present itself to a player.

In response to the non-combat skills thing... I play a character who can't fight her way out of a paper bag, and she's painfully boring. Geas' biggest strength is its combat system, and for her, there's not much to do besides sitting around and roleplaying. Even item creation involves killing things - birds and moles (and what not) for feathers and skins - and mining for salt and other nonsense. Of course, she could buy these things, but she needs money from mining/killing for that.

I'll stop this long post now and create a thread in "ideas" title "Non-combat skills."
I know it takes a lot of work to add a new skill (especially a complex non-combat one), but maybe an idea will entice a wizard.

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#13 Post by nogem » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:49 pm

I'll stand by my earlier post about higher skills degrading slower than low skills. ^Look up if you missed it.^

In a longer term/harder work for the wizzies solution I will agree wholeheartdly with Devi's comment about the strength of Geas being its combat system. (So tempting to put it's and see Devi cringe :wink:) Also have to agree about everything else requiring some combat if you want to really excel. But what makes the combat system so strong?

It keeps the players involved.

I hate mining/herbalism for this reason. Both are extremely passive to play. I have heard of more players falling asleep and done the same thing myself more during these activities than anything else in the game. Doing it alone, much less with the perceived need to do it alone for more success (I still don't completely buy this theory) only adds to the monotony and lack of RP. Too many of the skill systems do not give the opportunity for the active style of game play that most of us seem to love about the combat system.

Unfortunately, as discussed in previous threads, even though we know of at least one person, who needs no ego, who is also not happy with at least the mining system the work involved in this becoming an improved/more interactive system is prohibitive and something we players can count on being patient for.
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#14 Post by chara » Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:29 pm

Hmm, personally I like herb searching a lot. To me, I enjoy having things that my characters can do on their own, as opposed to having to do everything with other players. I often RP characters who enjoy solitary pursuits as well.

In what ways would you want herbalism to be more interactive?

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#15 Post by nogem » Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:49 pm

Being able to do it alone and having to do it alone are two different stories. The second is what I was referring to - and 'hate' is really a comparitive statement. I still spend hours on end mining, and occasionally herbing(?).

In terms of ways to make it more interactive, that is wide open and with more thought I am sure more ideas, probably even better ones could be come up with. Off the top of my head:

Something similar to specials, ie while searching throw in a command like 'dig' - could give an instant chance to find something, but maybe wear the player down faster/decrease chances of success later in the search.
Same kind of suggestion for mining (as a start).

Maybe have a command tied to the skill so above a certain level of herbalism a player could rip certain herbs into equal parts, making two usable bits of the same herb (kind of like how stones can be broken). This would play into the way alchemists currently RP cutting herbs into standard sizes and shorten the time somebody working on other related skills like alchemy and players wanting to make a potion *have* to spend in search mode. Maybe it could even contribute to the skill, same way using gore still contributes to impale.

Anyway, there are other players who use herbalism more than I have who also have better imaginations than my own. I am positive some of them could improve on those suggestions if they chose to.
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#16 Post by tessa » Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:59 pm

nogem wrote: I have heard of more players falling asleep and done the same thing myself more during these activities than anything else in the game.
I always fall asleep during combat stuff, but never non-combat stuff actually. ;)

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#17 Post by Devi » Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:00 pm

Here's what I mentioned earlier: http://www.armageddon.org/general/

I agree about the general passiveness (and consequent boringness!) of non-combat skills. There's no reaction required. Although difficult to code, I think mini games would be fun (although a hassle to code).

Fishing, for example, should require you to watch your bait and then enter an epic battle with the fish! (tug tug tug... slack... tug tug tug... slack... tug tug tug... TUG! *snap*)

Another solution is to add obstacles and strange occurences to keep players on their toes.

Sidenote to Nogem: If you'll notice, I wrote "its" rather than "it's" myself. Bad grammar happens. ;)

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#18 Post by ishna » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:52 am

I disagree about the skills degrading too fast or that the skills shouldn't degrade.

I understand Nogem's points about being able to rebuild his brakes/engines as well now as he could 4 years ago but I don't think that's quite the point here. If I suddenly stop fighting with a daggers and use a hammer to fight with for a while then go back to a pair of daggers, then those daggers are going to feel very strange the first few times I wield them and I think it's fairly realistic to say that I wouldn't be quite as good with them as I was before I took up the hammer. However I think I'd pick the skill back up very quickly again.

Quicker than Geas would let me recover my missing skill points. I know we do relearn skills quicker than we learnt them originally but I think maybe that's the bit that should be changed to increase the relearning speed a bit more.

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#19 Post by nogem » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:23 am

Good point, it will feel odd to your hands the first couple times, hands that have done thing so many time will take years to forget the activety to a point beyond that training. In this game the skills can completely disappear in that time.

This is a game though, so a more severe skill degradation seems somewhat fair and reasonable - but easier to adjust from a code aspect than making non-combat skills interactive, which I would see as the more important/signifigant impact to the playability of the game.
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#20 Post by Kortha » Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:37 am

Well, I don't agree with making the rp conventions as ironclad as Armageddon does. I don't think ALL elves should be played a certain way, for instance. The only thing I can really think of that should be ironclad is that tshaharks shouldn't be rp'ed as being able to understand what 30 means, heh.

Relearning skills faster would be a good solution to the "I just spent all day rp'ing and now I suck" factor, I think. (And yes, there've been times when I spent all day rp'ing without sitting at the crossing making dirty jokes, but I can't describe it without revealing ic stuff. Yesterday was fun, though. :)) With the current relearning rate, I've seen it take over a day to relearn 2 measly skill points, and that's with as much as *I* play. Of course, people who don't play as much as I play don't forget that many skills in the first place, heh.

I really love how various players have tried to fill in the gaps by introducing various little games into the mud. Playing truth or dare and making a Taniel priestess run naked through Elvandar is always a barrel of laughs. :P However, I still want cards and dice to make up games with, maybe even a casino somewhere. Can you imagine crusaders going nuts over ppl who gamble a lot? ;) Oh, and while we're at it, how about an item we can put stuff in and then take a random item out of? That'd be good for lotteries or raffles, voting on stuff outside of the stuff some guilds usually vote for, and a lot of other things. Being able to flip a coin would be good too...apparently there used to be a way to do this, but if there still is, no one I know can figure out how.

Ok, I think I'll end the random half asleep babbling now. :P
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