The Problem of God None -people

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genesis
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The Problem of God None -people

#1 Post by genesis » Wed May 03, 2006 1:59 pm

Currently, we have a SERIOUS PROBLEM of the non-religious characters in a game. Yes, I consider them a problem, because what has been stated before: the gods are a visible power and no one can dismiss them "bah I don't believe Sathonys exists".

In my opinion, I'd say remove resurrection for god none guys. Or allow it only for a limited time, or make it use a helluva lot more favour than it uses right now. Also, restricting the serviced of the priest for followers only would be a wise decision, currently they can be used by anyone who has faith - I'll leave this open for debate, though.

I would also suggest that in character creation, the character is forced to choose a deity. There would, of course, be defaults based on race and of course some info about the deities - and a strong disclaimer for true newbies not to pick Lilith or Sathonys.
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#2 Post by Kiyvali » Wed May 03, 2006 2:26 pm

Though my main (well, only) character is religious and I tend to think that god-less characters should be few, I'm not sure whether this should be a forced issue. Just as there should probably be fewer characters with red hair and green eyes (just guessing... these seem very common when Mary Sue syndrome hits). As well, if we follow certain real world models (granting that this is a game in a fantasy world), then we might ought to randomize handedness so that we have a proportionate number of people right and left handed.

I'd think elves would be fairly uncommon relative to humans as a result of lesser fertility and population growth, and yet I'd be willing to bet the ratio of elves to humans is really high.

Taking on the argument that PCs are 'different' from the masses for certain vague traits known only to gods and OOC knowledge, I'd say let the agnostic choose agnosticism. Same as we allow PCs to choose handedness, choose to have white hair, and so on.

I would like to see a required bit of text during character creation that outlines the benefits of choosing fewer, more telling traits vs one oddity right after the other. But having freedom to choose (and reap consequences of) details of your character seems a defining point of Geas, and one I really like.

On the other hand, if there's currently no mechanical difference between choosing a god and not choosing a god in the game, I would agree that there should be--but let it be minor, and handled by RP. I know my character would immediately lose a lot of respect for someone he discovers to be faithless, for example. If there are minor mechanical consquences and people actually roleplay out the unusual nature of being faithless when gods are blatant in their existence, then the problem is solved in the best way in my opinion--through roleplay, and gentle nudging/direction by the wizards via code.

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#3 Post by jezz » Wed May 03, 2006 6:59 pm

I think not beeing able to get ressed is a bit hard, but maybe you could find some kind of wicked mage, that has explored the way a resurrection affects and can somehow emulate it.

Disadvantages? Of course, the price won't go below 100gc, and the mage makes you sign something (as a ghost you can't have money but you can stamp your sign :D) so he gets the money from your account automatically.

Add other effects, like maybe a long but weak poison after your new body, a higher stat loss, or something like that...

I'm among the people who just doesn't find that

"I don't care about gods"

is a phrase that not many should be able to say in Geas without the rest of people laughing at them (and thinking about our greedy mage)

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#4 Post by tessa » Wed May 03, 2006 9:29 pm

I think there should be a few agnostics, because who said everyone is going to want to devote themselves to a god? Some people might worship more than one, and so they have 'god none' because they don't want to favour one over the other. Others might not like any of the gods for various reasons, and so they don't want to worship them. Others might be deciding who they want to follow, and don't want to make a rash decision and pick one, only to change it later and suffer possible consequences.

I agree that having as many godless chars as we do is a problem, but I don't think forcing people to pick one just to have one is the best choice, either. Maybe if some particular religious characters could try converting people to certain gods, though I'm not sure how many people are trying that, and how hard they are doing it. I think benefits for following a god that others couldn't get might help, too. But I just don't think forcing them or heavily pentalizing them is best.

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#5 Post by chara » Thu May 04, 2006 4:00 am

I think that not having a good chosen means that the character does not have an allegiance to any particular god, not that he or she doesn't believe they exist.

I also believe that this is a good opportunity for our clerics, to try to convince them.

Personally, I'd like to see the god change not with a command, but by the actions a player takes (being ressed by Taniel gives faith in Taniel, stealing gives faith in Lilith, etc.) but this might be difficult to implement, code-wise.

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#6 Post by jezz » Thu May 04, 2006 7:21 am

Yeah, because if killing makes you get faith in Sathonys, we have won :D

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#7 Post by chara » Thu May 04, 2006 8:07 am

In my ideal world, being tortured by Sathonys guys would give you faith in Sathonys, and being purified by Crusaders would give you faith in Taniel or Evren. Would be more incentive to roleplay something other than killing enemies.

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#8 Post by tessa » Thu May 04, 2006 10:06 am

Does that mean Tessa would have to do kinky stuff with people to spread faith in Gwen?

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#9 Post by Atrophius » Thu May 04, 2006 2:35 pm

Just because characters don't worship a certain god, doesn't mean that they believe they don't exist. Atrophius chooses not to devote himself to a god, and that's his business. Not anyone elses.

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#10 Post by genesis » Thu May 04, 2006 5:04 pm

Well, as I believe someone stated before (not in this thread), the gods in Geas are NOTHING like the god(s) in real world. I will not open the debate of the real god(s) here, but instead about the geasian pantheon. It was said, that the effects of the gods are widely seen and that basically NO ONE in the world of Geas can be an atheist or an agnostic.

I believe that everyone in the world belongs into the same polytheistic religion that has seven different deities. Each deity is worshipped by one specific cult. Tanielite Cleric might say that "choose Taniel", but would not say "Sathonys doesn't exist" if not using it in rhetorical sense. I think this fits the atmosphere of the game.

Now, what does it mean to follow a god? (question raised) Is it "true following", righteous smiting of the god's enemies and so on, or is it only an alteration of the direction of soul. ("'Ey, I like Asral because his priests kicked insect ass, but I can't really fight and can't really even kill animals, so I'll just nod and smile.")

When it comes to magical resurrection, I would not like of it. Perhaps some sort of nature spirits, but no mages able to resurrect.

Earlier it was so, that if you had god none and went to resurrect in a certain temple, this caused your deity to change into that particular deity. I think this should be taken into effect, again, for newbies with a 2 day play-time limitation. This would eventually get us rid of the problem.

I think this would also open the possibilities for the player converting. I know that at least one character tries to "actively" convert other people's to follow the deity. When we would have people with god set as something they don't really like - or if religion doesn't mean much to the character - they would be easily seduced into the ways of a certain religion. Currently, the problem is that most of the god none -characters' players have decided that they'll characters will always stick to god none.

So, my suggestion:
a) We must increase the benefits of following a deity. Perhaps each player could pray to his/her god and receive a blessing visible to other followers and players. Also, deity-aligned weapons and armours could be inserted, received from the cleric.

b) We enable the deity change at temples, if the player has god none (or too low faith to his/her original deity.)

c) We should decrease the effect of the god -command. Currently I know it causes the deity to be angry, don't really know what it does, but anyway. It shouldn't be hard to change a deity.

d) OR enable 'convert', so you can convert someone into your deity's worshipping, if your faith is high enough.

e) More possibilities of gaining faith to a certain deity. Perhaps there could be sacred texts and that reading them gives you some faith, or some prayers you could chant in the crossroads, and so on. The clerics of a given deity should also be able to somehow aid the path to the deity; i.e. bless and/or give faith.

f) Sin. (Meaning: acting against a deity creates a sin, animosity, between character and the deity; bad will) People acting against god's will would be "sinners". All game actions would cause this (that are applicable) and the amount of sin would be seen by a cleric. -- WAIT! This is already in game, it's called reputation. :D


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#11 Post by tessa » Thu May 04, 2006 6:36 pm

I'd like to ask if we do things like this, we make it easier to work with some of the gods. For instance, right now it's harder for gwen or lilith followers to get help or favour than say, taniel or asral followers. And it might be easier to please some gods and anger others. For instance, power trainers might end up getting stuck with the violent gods. I think that should be evened out a bit too.

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#12 Post by Atrophius » Thu May 04, 2006 6:41 pm

Quite frankly, if Atro decides to worship a god, it's not going to be because of ooc reasons. So, if he doesn't get enough ic inclination to worship, it's just not going to happen. And that doesn't mean changing the code to force him to appear to do something he's really not doing, either.

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#13 Post by tarlon » Fri May 05, 2006 5:50 am

Sure all characters do belive in the gods. They have to because they exist. There is no chance for any player to deny the existance of the gods. Because there are more than enough evidences for them in the geas world. Their clerics are granted real miracles. The gods can resurect them or heal them or do other stuff with them. Hey there is no chance to say i don´t belive in the gods or i don`t realy care for them.
But does a char have to choose a favorite god? Perhaps he favours multiple gods? Why does he have to have to choose a faovorite god?

I think the god command is okay if you once choosed a god and you change it is okay that the god is fairly angry about it that you now don`t favour him most anymore.
Hehe that reminds me on poor jezz who angered lilith ;-). I think he will remember as well and his char probably knows messing with gods isn`t something you should do often.

The idea of having relegious books and symbols the churces sell is realy nice and wood be funny.

And i realy like the Idea that clerics are able to bless items for belivers the found trustworthy or to grant them another nice deed. This should be just temporarly for sure so they have to stay faithfull followers to get it.
This could give some nice roleplay options as well and would force some guys to stay in tune with the god and their clerics to recive this little bonus again.

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Two or more

#14 Post by vurdijak » Fri May 05, 2006 8:39 am

I'm not sure if this would help others choose, but In Vurdijak's case he has
three main gods he reveres and two that he worships. Maybe we could
have the opportunity to list one or more gods that we also worship but not
as much as the primary. For instance in my case it would likely be
'god' Evren and then something like 'lessergod' Asral. Just an idea, but it would be nice to be able to officially choose more than one.

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#15 Post by genesis » Fri May 05, 2006 1:14 pm

We must now establish what does it mean to use the god command and set a deity. It is said on 'stats' that You believe in XXX.

What does it mean to choose a god with the command god?

Is it the same thing as worshipping a god?

Is it the same as following a god?

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god command

#16 Post by vurdijak » Fri May 05, 2006 1:53 pm

The 'help god' file says that the god command determines which god
you worship the most. So I guess you can worship more than one god,
but if you want to make that official, you have to worship one more than
the others.

In response to Genesis I think that using the god command to choose a
god is like offering a prayer to the god giving them your allegiance. If you
break that allegiance by changing the god then you have to pay the penalty.

I think using the god command means that you worship that god above all
the rest. I suppose it could be the nature of the gods (jealous) to want
a follower to worship only them, but then again, it doesnt seem like Evren
would be too pissed about someone worshiping Taniel at the same time.
Maybe there could be benefits to someone who only worships one god, but
people who worship two or more would be without these benefits.

Using the god command to me means more than just following. But maybe the wording in the 'help god' file should be changed to reflect that. Something like 'you follow the god more devoutly than all the rest' instead of the worship wording.

Also, not sure if this is already the case, but some gods should get really upset about someone leaving and punish them, while other gods might not care so much. For instance, if the balance is disrupted towards good, and a
Shao leaves Zhakrin for evil, I think Zhakrin might applaud that decision
because it restores the balance a bit. Maybe some gods would want you
to worship them with the god command, and others only expect you to follow with a new command like 'gfollow'. Maybe you could 'gfollow' more than one god but not 'god' more than one god.

Now that I've confused myself....thats my response Genesis

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#17 Post by Kortha » Mon May 08, 2006 10:29 am

The way I see it, worshipping a god means you totally agree with their idea of how the world should be, and even if there's no way for you to act in a manner that would make this a reality, you wish you could. Anything else is just lip service. You can't go "Taniel is cool, except I still wanna steal stuff!"

Therefore, the motivation for at least 1 char not worshipping a god is mainly tied up in the fact that there is no god that exactly fits their beliefs, and they're not willing to try to fake a god out like that. It wouldn't be honorable to worship a god without really sharing the god's ideals. And some people believe all the gods (even the ones they don't like) serve their purpose and are necessary.

Also, some chars may like a given god just fine, but not approve of his/her/its priests/followers.
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#18 Post by Abharsair » Mon May 08, 2006 7:12 pm

I guess it would be kind of easy (and realistic) to make the god worship dynamic. Similar like with skills (you train what you really do) we could let you worship automatically the god in whom you have the most positive faith. Of course with a delay and a reasonable buffer to prevent frequent accidental changes. After all, if your supposedly non-worshipping character runs around with maximum faith in Sathonys, it wouldn't make sense to say he doesn't worship anyone. That means if you don't want to worship anyone, you really would have to not worship anyone.
Last edited by Abharsair on Tue May 09, 2006 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#19 Post by chara » Mon May 08, 2006 7:32 pm

I think that would be really cool and fun - and it would also enhance roleplay, since not being careful to act in the way that their god wants would have a substantial effect on their character.

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#20 Post by nogem » Tue May 09, 2006 10:44 am

I hate to admit it, but that would be a good add in for religion in Geas. It would go a loooong way to end the pointless ic debates of what are valid ways to worship a god. Pretty much makes it cut and dry - and keeps players doing what you want them to for a given god.
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