Racial roleplay

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jezz
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Re: Racial roleplay

#81 Post by jezz » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:38 pm

I want to clarify that I'm by no means attacking Kors for becoming a judge. In fact, if I'd be him I would have probably done the same. Hell, why not? A tshahark can be stupid but he can find funny to become a judge.

Nothing wrong there. But in the name of the hp command, how can a player make his/her character vote for a tshahark as judge? I mean, Jezz once did a nasty action and helped a good being to finish a quest and a fluffy creature followed him for some time hugging periodically.

What should be done against those characters that voted for judge for a living being that can't count until 5?

I mean, seriously, I have been away from GEAS for quite time already (rl), but guys, I'd ask you to think a bit about what you're doing.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#82 Post by Zengo » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:55 pm

I am saying exactly as Jezz said, if my posts aren't clear enough.

That is why I said as players, we need to do something about this.
Why the hell would a citizen of a city that hates harks vote for one?

It is not Kors fault. After all, he just made the problems we are facing more public. If he can run and get voted in, as a hark.....he did exactly what he should have.

Kelric should hunt down any human citizen that voted for him and hang them on the gallows for treason! Make a public mockery of them!
Glue a tail on their ass, and make them drag it around for a month or so!

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Re: Racial roleplay

#83 Post by adanath » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:37 pm

*imagines the fluffy creature following around Jezz*

hey I agree here. Would say the same thing were it my tshahark. More power to Kors for making it..but terrible roleplay on the part of citizens that voted for him.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#84 Post by korsario » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:40 pm

Hi there!
I think I should add my point of view on this. Well, first, I didnt
this just for fun, I knew it would be a challengue, and would not
be an easy task (its ended being harder than I thought). Some of
Kors mistakes are intented, others arent... Anyway I try to roleplay
him as good as I can. The task is harder because he cant do all that
he would love, or the humans would end him sooner than a tshahark
would end a roastbeaf.

On the other hand, the job isnt the more entertaining of the world
for me, I love hack and slay! And my skills are dropping, but I
will take my decition to the deep end. And yes, I also enjoy the
situation, I never expected such revolution both here and on the
mud. I think its an interesting situation, and I try Kors to make
the job the best he could do.

Is a tshahark prepared for the job of judge on a city? Probably not.
For executor? yeah. But the citizens ellected him. Why? Well,
probably because they will know he will do the job of make the law
be executed, and the criminals hunted and punished. The current judge
position isnt really the kind of judges we got on IRL. Take a look
on the "Judge Dredd" kind of "judges". Judges and executors of the law,
"on the streets". Thats a kind of judge Kors want to be, not a judge
on the desk. He believes on himself, that he will clean the city of
dirt, and that he will probably be full of shit before the end. *grin*

Anyway, as some already stated... the players decide what happens on
the game (in most of the cases). And Kors could be kicked of the
position without the actuation of the wizards.

And about the changes on the code, to avoid tshaharks becomming
judge... why? Some of the npcs voted against him already and if the
players would have not liked him as judge they would have voted for
the npc, or presented themselves.

Finally as sidenote, there was nothing strange on the votation, Kors won
the votation for minimum 2 votes, and after the votation was over,
"probably" the npc retired, I think. No idea about it.

Kors.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#85 Post by Delmon » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:44 pm

Are we assuming the citizens who vote in arborea are human? I find the player base so small that its impossible to really blame the outcome of this situation on one factor (those who voted). Because those who voted might not even be human.

Maby there should be 6 invisible humans controlled by a wizard and 6 invisible elves in elvandar who vote in a "realistic" manner. That might be fun for the wizard I dont know!

would that be more like the suggested "1.5"?

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Re: Racial roleplay

#86 Post by tessa » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:11 pm

Are we assuming the citizens who vote in arborea are human? I find the player base so small that its impossible to really blame the outcome of this situation on one factor (those who voted). Because those who voted might not even be human.
I'm thinking most of them weren't human, but I think it's a bit weird when a minority can vote against the majority people in Arborea (humans, even if npcs) and win. I'm pretty sure there'd be tons of NPCs that would say, "no way, down with the toad!", but they aren't there because then it would be wizards making the decisions instead of players, which isn't a desired (but sadly perhaps necessary) scenario.
And about the changes on the code, to avoid tshaharks becomming
judge... why? Some of the npcs voted against him already and if the
players would have not liked him as judge they would have voted for
the npc, or presented themselves.
Well, the thing about that is, some npcs voted against him, but there's a certain point where I think admins don't want to push RP into a certain direction unless forced to do it. And even then, after months and months of many of these problems going on, I'm not surprised if they finally said 'Screw it, I'm tired of constantly having to fix things if the players don't care at all.'

I mean, it really shouldn't be possible. What's next? A darkelf for Elvandar judge? An elf for UG judge? Jezz as LM of the Crusaders? It's entirely possible with the players that will think, 'oh, but he's cool and he's my friend, so he gets my vote without a doubt'.

I'll admit now, one reason I've played Geas much less now is because of the change of RP I've seen on the mud. I don't see people actually fitting the roles of their characters as much anymore, now it seems to be mostly, 'you RP what the player or his friends want, not what the character would want'. I start to feel like I'm in a chatroom with some hack and slash monsties here and there. In fact, I often feel left out in the mud now, feeling like I need to be in the OOC IM circle to fit in and be allowed to hang out with others.

I mean, don't get me wrong, some RP has improved. Darkelves are now seen as the scourge of the world as they are, and not as cuddly teddy bears. There are actually some religious divisions now, no longer will you see a Taniel+Satho or Asral+Gwennie skipping through a flower field together (though Asrals and Druids seem to be steadfast allies, despite Druids essentially following the same morals and lifestyle as Gwennies (or worse, since Gwennies will at least fight, while Druids are supposed to shun both war and murder)).

The sad thing is, the situation with darkelves and opposing gods weren't fixed until wizards had to enforce them. And I've seen such things as people who break their guildrules left and right, then deny/lie about it to their superiors, people who worship gods that are enemies to their guild, while the guildmembers just shrug and say 'oh well', people who hunt with and even defend the integrity of guild enemies, or kill creatures that should be defended by their guild/faith, and either deny ever doing it, or the leaders simply shrug it away (what's worse, I've seen someone teaming with an enemy of their god while killing their own god's creations once, with weapons belonging to an enemy god, and then later chastised fellow worshippers for being blasphemous. What??). And what's the common reason for it all? Either 'I don't want to fight with xxx' or 'But xxx is my friend' or 'Who cares, anyway?' And of these problems that were fixed, they didn't become so until the wizards intervened. And if they never had, I wouldn't be surprised if the problems would have never been addressed.

I mean, I've tried to confront some of these problems. I've tried to guide some people or guilds back on track. I know a few others that have, too. But myself, and most of the others eventually give up, because people either completely ignore us, or shun and protest against us because 'we're bossy and won't let people do whatever they want'. It makes me start to wonder what's the point of having guilds, religions, or races, if everyone just wants to be friends with everyone else and doesn't like the differences or conflict.

I really don't like criticizing RP, though I know it's what I'm doing. I have a feeling I piss people off and make them think I'm a quarrelsome bitch. But this is how I feel, and it seems there's some other players that feel the same way. And if it isn't just me, and it really is a problem, then perhaps openly addressing it here can lead to the solution that mumbling under our breaths and quietly hoping for wizards to intervene didn't.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#87 Post by Zengo » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:50 pm

tessa wrote:
I mean, I've tried to confront some of these problems. I've tried to guide some people or guilds back on track. I know a few others that have, too. But myself, and most of the others eventually give up, because people either completely ignore us, or shun and protest against us because 'we're bossy and won't let people do whatever they want'. It makes me start to wonder what's the point of having guilds, religions, or races, if everyone just wants to be friends with everyone else and doesn't like the differences or conflict.

I really don't like criticizing RP, though I know it's what I'm doing. I have a feeling I piss people off and make them think I'm a quarrelsome bitch. But this is how I feel, and it seems there's some other players that feel the same way. And if it isn't just me, and it really is a problem, then perhaps openly addressing it here can lead to the solution that mumbling under our breaths and quietly hoping for wizards to intervene didn't.
Yeah, I feel exactly the same. I have witnessed lots of the same things recently, and also different problems as well. I have a characters in guilds right now that seem to be more like social groups than guilds. Rank is ignored. The guilds equipment is not special to them, so they just let others have it freely. They ignore their enemy list, even traitors to the guild because those characters were once their friends, and they don't want to hunt them. So, what is the point of having a guild then? You only use it for its benefits but you do not care to enforce its rules, politics, etc.......

I am sure I sound whiny right now as well. I have tried for a long time to address these problems ICly, and people just ignore them completely. It is discouraging and it really annoys those of us who really do try to RP our roles. Sometimes it seems like the only option is to leave the guild and try to join another, because no matter how much you bring these issues forth ICly, they are ignored.

There was more here I could post that would make some people gasp, but the players would take that as a personal attack against them since some of them use this forum and it would create a tense playing area for myself.

Sorry for the long rant, but I just want Tessa to know she is not alone. These things annoy myself as well. They are discouraging and it all makes me wonder the same things. Why do we even have guilds or religions?

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Re: Racial roleplay

#88 Post by sun » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:07 pm

Amen, Tessa..

This is a "roleplaying enforced" MUD. That's at least what the ads says. The question is if anything is going to happen or if it will just continue.. This must also be lived up to.

And trust me, trying to confront these problems alone as a single player is banging your head against a wall. Convenient is simplest, and simplest is easy. That is why I said more hard-coded actions or even wizards ensuring the consistency of some choices. That's what defines the "lowest acceptable level"..

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Re: Racial roleplay

#89 Post by isengoo » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:28 pm

It's annoying to be killed/outlawed/fined extraneous amounts for silly reasons and have no real chance for recompense, so people avoid it as much as possible - even if this means being flexible with their roleplay.

For instance - Isengorn is banned from Elvandar because he was a cannibal and he killed Rex's unicorn, among other things. Fair enough. 15 gold to be paid for the initial crimes is reasonable, sure, but 75 gold for the unicorn? Frankly, that's retarded. As such, he's hunted constantly by the Taniels and the Crusaders for something that happened several IC years ago, has been killed by them several times for it, and remains hunted. This I can live with, but I'm willing to bet it turns people off from the whole "roleplay 1000%, no matter the consequences" attitude. I hate to make this into a Taniels vs. everyone else argument, but it's what usually turns me off from roleplaying, so I have to. If ya'll would just give a little and quit busting everyone's balls all the time, I bet everyone would be that much happier to cooperate (and play! oo!)

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Re: Racial roleplay

#90 Post by Zengo » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:32 pm

Yeah. You should have to pay him 150 gold coins, instead of just 75. So he can get another unicorn.

Also, from knowing the whole situation.......it looks like everyone Rped properly.

Isengorn committed atrocities and got off light for it.

His actions had consequences. Those consequences were enforced.

Are you saying they should "take it easy on you" because you don't like the consequences of your actions?

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Re: Racial roleplay

#91 Post by luminier » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:34 pm

im no pristine example of how to properly roleplay something, and the wizards are familiar with this. but i have to say i agree. although my solution is to just hang around the people that actually do roleplay and make it fun, and seek out the bad roleplayers to kill them, well cause bad roleplay, leads to trouble with the crusade -in some situations- =P.

but yes i do agree with everything tessa, and zengo have said and everyone else supporting roleplay in this mud. i like the idea of more racism, i like the idea of having a better out lined system with which to act, and allow people to act accordingly (or not and face the consequences icly)

thanks for trying to make the mud better, i hope it works.


EDIT: Zengo I think it is comments like that OOC that gets people ticked. i mean lets face it, it's true. but you ahve to bring it up in a more... 'caring' way. if you truly want to improve this mud dont hit the people that are trying, if isengorn is actually trying that is. lately it seems to be easy to repent with the crusade. maybe you die once more, show your actions have changed and boom, ur golden. we aren't here to kill you, we are here to make you do good things, or at least, not bad things. or youll be hunted. *nod*
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#92 Post by tessa » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:19 pm

Well, the reason Isengorn was fined so heavily for the unicorn is because of how expensive it is. If I recall, fines for murdering horses is just as steep, and reasonably so, considering the high cost for them. 75 gold is actually rather light for the plantiff, since it doesn't fully compensate the loss of the unicorn, even.

But, I think few could argue that people who commit vandalism and are found guilty, should pay the costs to have the vandalized objects repaired/replaced.

Of course, this does suck for Isengorn, because it's hard to be attacked by a unicorn and then try to not kill it. So I'm not entirely unsympathetic, and if the unicorn's owner provoked the fight, that should probably be taken into account if Isengorn later killed it.

However, IMO, if he's already been killed and punished for it, that should count towards his atonement. I'm more a supporter of the "Either you get this punishment or that" approach than the "You get Punishment A, and we're going to keep giving you Punishment B until you finish the first one" stance.

And just so you know, the more recent times Isengorn was hunted was for other reasons, from what I know. Which I would hope Isengorn was informed about.

What might help situations like this would be if people would work more towards capturing people instead of killing them. But then, I can sympathsize with the Crusaders giving up on that a bit, having seen plenty of people myself that either log out during capture, refuse to roleplay, or flee the second a rope bugs out, or etc.

But this is where I think it's important to remember that saying: "We're all here to play this mud together and have fun". Not to beat up each other in malice or rub in victories or grump about losses. Try to give those other dudes a second chance if you can, too.

I would just say, remember that in winning or losing, everyone likes RP and I think most would prefer it to frag-kills. Whether you're the guy winning or losing, give your rival some fun RP, and remember to not let inflated or hurt egos get in the way of fun.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#93 Post by adanath » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:36 pm

Not much to say really. Isengorn, there were other reasons for it, and as far as I know the first time any kind of remorse has been expressed was recently, and it was such taken into account.

If you do evil actions then all of a sudden after you are punished act like you are completely absolved and never even express remorse during it, well this kind of points to that A.) You either didn't learn your lesson B.) Your heart and intentions are still evil. To a Crusader since they always seem to be the examples especially a tshahark Crusader it is as simple as that.

For instance lately I have encountered multiple people upon being caught and ample evidence being brought before them (no many times not always publicly) do not believe they deserve any punishment and just simply think they can say sorry and it is over with after doing rather evil things. Then because they confess I try to take it easier on them then I would normally, and all of a sudden they are pissed off because I am doing anything at all. (this includes a couple people who were captured). It is like there is this complete lack of desire to roleplay when it comes to actually having to face any sort of consequences for your actions, whether it be death, severing of limbs, breaking of limbs or purification, or even tasks to do to show your heart-change. To be fair there have been a fair amount of people who also did very well. So it would not be right for me to say everyone is like this. Regardless of how you may feel philisophically in real life, to me it seems like the biggest problem is the intention of many to invoke relative morality and pseudo-philosophy of the ooc world icly.

Things are not the same in both worlds philisophically, isn't that part of the reason why we play to escape into a different world?

With one of my alts some of the most fun I have had is evading Crusaders for doing "naughty" things, but one day I know they are going to catch me, and it is going to suck icly for my character, but I know I have to take the consequences of my actions. Just like I know with my crusader one day the sathos will catch me..maybe just kill me..maybe capture me..and I have to accept them there as well. Honestly, I look forward to it, (but I sure am not going to make it any easier for either group, that is bad roleplay in my opinion as well in many cases)

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Re: Racial roleplay

#94 Post by Delmon » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:16 pm

For instance lately I have encountered multiple people upon being caught and ample evidence being brought before them (no many times not always publicly) do not believe they deserve any punishment and just simply think they can say sorry and it is over with after doing rather evil things
We are talking ic here...
When you say this type of thing you also must understand that the character may not like the punishments or situation so the "grumbling" and "want to get off easy" happens. Why is this not good rp?
It is like there is this complete lack of desire to roleplay when it comes to actually having to face any sort of consequences for your actions, whether it be death, severing of limbs, breaking of limbs or purification, or even tasks to do to show your heart-change.
Oh... we are talking about ooc... Are we truly talking about a few instances or many many times?
Are you complaining that punishments have not been roleplayed well? is that all? That's easy to change. :wink:
With one of my alts some of the most fun I have had is evading Crusaders for doing "naughty" things,
Adanath is one of the 3(?) crusaders... makes it little easier.

so...
It's annoying to be killed/outlawed/fined extraneous amounts for silly reasons and have no real chance for recompense, so people avoid it as much as possible - even if this means being flexible with their roleplay.
I agree with isengorn on this. its easy ooc to play a buff, always good character. Sometimes there are good rp reasons to turn evilish. But if you are not smart about it and get stuck in a position of certain "hunt down" we are talking 15-25+ hours to recover to full stats. Its hard to not be a little annoyed ooc at dying and consequences when we are talking about these numbers.
This is a "roleplaying enforced" MUD. That's at least what the ads says. The question is if anything is going to happen or if it will just continue.. This must also be lived up to.
I know youve written a guide sun and its good I think. Im a newbie rper I know this. that guide is for new characters. Is there good suggestions for older characters that might have messed up but dont want to give up on their character?
They ignore their enemy list, even traitors to the guild because those characters were once their friends, and they don't want to hunt them


I am sure there can be rp reasons for the "ignoring." Maby they are treated in the proper manner based on other variables the whole mud's not gonna know about?

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Re: Racial roleplay

#95 Post by Zengo » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:22 pm

Well, if they do not want to actively participate in the guild and its politics, what is the reason for having guilds?

Every single one of them uses the same excuse. I have seen it from multiple chars and it has occurred multiple times. The leaders of said guilds do not even care to try to enforce it IC even when their guildwiz had written a note on the OOC board stating that "enemies should be treated as enemies, not your friend that has fallen on hard times"

It is really getting out of hand. It is frustrating the ones who really wish to see their guilds be guilds and not social groups using the mud for a monster killing chat room.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#96 Post by sun » Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:47 am

Delmon wrote:I know youve written a guide sun and its good I think. Im a newbie rper I know this. that guide is for new characters. Is there good suggestions for older characters that might have messed up but dont want to give up on their character?
Well thank you, I'm glad someone liked it. It's really hard to answer your question because it depends on many things. The most obvious is if you can play through that big change in your character and live with it, feeling that you didn't betray yourself or making it unrealistically. It's alot about what history the character has. Though trying to correct something too late will probably not work, though.

In general, I would not be afraid to start a new character though (but I would never personally play more than one at the same time, it never works). If you do that, and get things right from the start, there won't be any "hard work" to regain something. And if you make a character type you haven't done before and still feel comfortable with, you're exploring new things anyway, so it is not "regaining". Except from the quests, of course.. *cough*

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Re: Racial roleplay

#97 Post by Grindel » Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:57 am

Is there good suggestions for older characters that might have messed up but dont want to give up on their character?
Don't throw him away to quickly. Turn your past RP mistakes into IC mistakes the char made and live with them. It creates some ingame trouble, sure, but then: you have something to roleplay, and the chance to do it better this time. A char with a troubled past has great opportunities for future play.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#98 Post by tessa » Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:20 am

Ah, Delmon beat me to it, I looked over your guide and I liked it very much myself. It's definitely something that I would recommend to others. Kudos for a guide well written, IMO.

And I would say it's not just for new characters, but for experienced characters too. There's some advice in there that I think would never get old for any character, regardless of experience.

Tessa herself had absolutely no personality or background when I first made her. She was basically just me. Since then, I developed her over time into what she is now (and I hope to still develop her further, preferably more shaolin-like than she's been). Granted, she's a bit of a goof character (she was a brat in her youth, and did a lot of things I complain about others doing now), and there's some unfortunate things about her past now that I can't change (like her background or age), but I think she's been a fairly successful character, if an extraordinarily normal one, bar her secret thiefy adventures which few know about.

Anyway, if I were to give someone my own advice for improving RP with a character..

I would say, try to seperate yourself from your character. Don't think of him as just you in GEAS form. Think of your character as his own individual person, with his own personality, feelings, likes, dislikes, etc. seperate from your own. Then, play him out that way, and act on how the character feels in the atmosphere he's in, rather than how you feel. When the character develops his own sense of identity, free from the whims of the player behind the screen, that's when the RP really blooms, IMO.

And I agree with what Grindel said. It takes a lot to 'mess up' a character, and there's almost always a route still available. If you were talking about your own char, Delmon, I'd say he's far from messed up. In a difficult position, perhaps, but I wouldn't say he's messed up. Tessa was once a Lilithian Shadowlurker, a friend of Sathos and the Order, a steadfast supporter of the Asral Clergy, and a heavy critic of the Taniel Clergy and Crusade. In the present day, she's practically the exact opposite of that, and it all happened smoothly through RP. So, I think it's entirely possible for chars that already made a stand in something to still be able to change.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#99 Post by vurdijak » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:08 am

Noteveryoneplaysthismudforthesamereasons.

Some like it 'hot' and others like to be relaxed by the game. This derives from different definitions of having fun. Zengo you might have the most fun while your char. is getting tortured b/c there is great roleplay going on. Isen might enjoy the mud most while hunting bugbears with friends. I dont think either is wrong, and balancing these two, roleplay and fun, and not a clear cut or black and white issue.

Some of the roleplay breaches that several of you mentioned are serious and probably should be avoided in the future, but lets keep this in perspective. I have met and had great roleplaying experiences with a ton of people in Geas. In other muds, I have seen the bar set much lower. Not to say we cant strive for something better, but its really not accurate to depict Geas as this pitiful place where roleplay is generally lacking. I have watched a lot of players grow significantly in their roleplay while they are here, and I expect the newer generation of players to do exactly that, grow. Keep in mind their feelings and willingness to stick around and develop themselves as players.

Probably the worst thing for roleplay is a mud climate that is combative OOC. To those of you who just participated in the previous tit for tat regarding an IC event, do you care to explain what you hope to accomplish? To me, it looks like a mixture of genuine concern for the mud and misplaced personal pride. Humility it takes to make good roleplay does (<---Sucky attempt at Yoda speak. Dont kill me Yoda)

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Re: Racial roleplay

#100 Post by tessa » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:35 am

vurdijak wrote:Probably the worst thing for roleplay is a mud climate that is combative OOC. To those of you who just participated in the previous tit for tat regarding an IC event, do you care to explain what you hope to accomplish?
Which tit for tat are you talking about? The situation with Arborea, or the more recent one of Isengorn?

For myself, I don't think there's a black and white way for people to RP. However, when people RP completely contrary to the spirit of the IC world, may it be religion, cities, races, guilds, or what have you, without any strong IC reason (and I don't count 'but he's nice to me' or 'I don't feel like it' as valid reasons, especially when it comes to skipping responsibilities in certain positions in the mud), then I start to think it's a problem, especially if it's a lack of seperation between the OOC feelings of the player and the IC atmosphere. Or just a severe case of apathy ("Why are you training with xxx? Didn't he raid your guild and kill a bunch of your guards?" "Yeah, so?").

Yes, it's true that GEAS isn't in a completely pitiful state. And yes, it's not nice to point out things like this. But wearing a smile and trying to pretend it doesn't happen doesn't make it go away, and the longer it goes on unchecked, the further it spreads, and the more chances new people pick up on the bad examples when they appear perfectly acceptable (by bad examples, I don't mean "people who don't RP how I'd like them to", but rather things like cute and cuddly darkelves, asralites that proclaim love, peace, and friendship, evrenites that hang out with the neighborhood satho, etc.).

People are free to play their characters as they like. But I think there's a certain responsibility required of the player to make sure his or her roleplay fits with the nature of the mud (If you don't care for duty or responsibility, please don't join a guild that depends on dedicated and hard-working members just because of its perks. If your character enjoys peace, nature, harmony, etc., please don't worship Asral just because it's what everyone else does).

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