Racial roleplay

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Vargrahim
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Racial roleplay

#1 Post by Vargrahim » Sun May 13, 2007 5:55 am

This is something I miss in Geas (with the exception of how darkelves are treated).

Too much are races the same. I feel like there is no real difference between and elf or human, for example. They behave much in the same way, have the same cultural restrictions etc. Tshaharks having high ranks in guilds, half-elves chatting around with the elven upperclass, etc etc. It seems to me like "racism" is the exception while "being kind" is the rule, most because the players like this better.

I would love to see some real differences. It would be nice if caring for bloodlines, culture and language would actually matter for elves. Tshaharks could be just barely better than enslaved in Arborea. Humans could be alot more cruel/primitive in comparison with elves (if you think about Arborea and Elvandar). An alliance between elves and dwarves could actually mean something out of the extraordinary.

Or something equivalently interesting. I am just after some cultural difference which affects the way people behave because I see basically no true difference at all between most of the races.

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#2 Post by isengoo » Sun May 13, 2007 4:36 pm

I would love to see this, but it won't happen because certain people in power wouldn't want it to happen, because it would foster bad guild relations.

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#3 Post by chara » Sun May 13, 2007 5:15 pm

I'd like to see more of this as well. Though I think the tshaharks are already quite different from other races.

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#4 Post by Delia » Mon May 14, 2007 3:06 am

One thing that affects as well is the fact that Arborea is currently the melting pot of all races...if you want to do crafts or join layman guilds, you are forced to spend time there. It would be optimal if all cities could offer almost everything available, so there would not be a need to completely rely on Arborea as a scribe, for example.
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#5 Post by Devi » Mon May 14, 2007 2:24 pm

I think everyone is nice at least in part due to the small playerbase. If you play a racist character (who openly hates dwarves), you lose out on playing with every dwarf.

Playing alone can be pretty boring. :p

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#6 Post by Naga » Mon May 14, 2007 5:09 pm

Ask a tshahark where his keeper is, even in Arborea, and you are met with "Tanielzs no likesz how Naga treatzs tszharaksz."

Back a few years ago when I opened up the tavern, more than just the tshaharks were aghast that Mahrkusha introduced as a slave, everyone being so mindful of equality, threatening violence and wanting to "free" the poor thing.

I'd be more than happy to have Naga rework Arborean law to be racially harsh (perhaps testimony of a tshahark alone would not be admissible evidence), even criminalizing certain interracial displays of romantic affection, but not if it means sticking my neck out to play the lone bigot and suffering consequences.

A question: should elves be less racist towards tshaharks than humans? If not, why? Naga's perspective has always been that although humans are in general piggish and cursed with a short life (to be viewed with a sort of paternalistic pity), they at least aren't like the tshaharks: ferocious perversions of flesh, more animal than man, who are utterly incapable of appreciating the lofty things that make life worth living, and who are consequently always at least a dormant threat. A sort of once-necessary but now obsolete science project that should be viewed as a tool to accomplishing things, but never indulged in the fantasy that they are full persons.

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#7 Post by tarlon » Tue May 15, 2007 1:39 am

If i remember right dwarves where the only ones who accepted and tolerated the tshaharks and even gave them a new home after there wasn`t any need of them anymore. So humans and elves didn`t realy liked them. Okay as elves might simply feel overcofident that the are something better and just ignore and work against them in political ways. humans are probably more "aktive" in what they do elves simply have more time than most humans.
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#8 Post by Abharsair » Tue May 15, 2007 4:42 am

There is plenty of IC justification to roleplay someone racist. Elves vs. humans, elves vs. dwarves, elves vs. darkelves, humans vs. tshaharks, and so on. The history is full of reasons for why one could do that. So if you (plural) really want to change that, make an example and play like that. "The other players might hate me for that" is a cheap excuse, because they usually can differentiate very well between the po and the character. On the other hand, if you are afraid to start a trend by playing a controversial role, don't expect others to do it for you.

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#9 Post by tarlon » Tue May 15, 2007 9:03 am

and all guys like halflings, don`t you? ;-)

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#10 Post by Vargrahim » Tue May 15, 2007 12:27 pm

You are obviously claiming that this is something one person can easily do IC without any support, but...

There have been a few elves trying to play nobles in the past, solely on RP basis and without any external support as such. They have been successfully playing their part for long periods of time, but every one of these "attempts" has been completely ruined by chars starting to call them "self-appointed" or just arrogant madmen. They have demanded evidence for their position which obviously isn't available and completely ignored the sometimes years of playing a noble in the past. This has seriously crippled the characters and ruined the game for everyone who has been involved in the RP.

And the truth is, without either external (wiz) support or common (OOC) agreements these characters are always on a very weak ground and no matter what the player does or for how many years, nothing will change it.

To make things worse, the people "demanding evidence" have always been old players in important positions, not a random newbie. And clearly such strategies for political "PvP" are largely accepted by the older players and wizzes alike.

As far I am concerned, playing bloodlines with any significance is not an option at the moment.
Devi wrote:I think everyone is nice at least in part due to the small playerbase. If you play a racist character (who openly hates dwarves), you lose out on playing with every dwarf.

Playing alone can be pretty boring. :p
While that is a valid argument, I don't see it as being a major problem. The people playing a racist have probably known the consequences as they started their RP. I would consider the IC and OOC hostility towards these chars and the pressure from the "neutral mass" as the problem.

A final note, my point was not really about "racism" in Geas, but about the differences of races. Racism is one thing that could grow out of that, but there is plenty of more interesting which comes from a difference in races. At least to me, history, culture, races, language, society classes, all make an important part of a fantasy setting.

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#11 Post by Abharsair » Tue May 15, 2007 1:09 pm

Vargrahim wrote:There have been a few elves trying to play nobles in the past, solely on RP basis and without any external support as such. They have been successfully playing their part for long periods of time, but every one of these "attempts" has been completely ruined by chars starting to call them "self-appointed" or just arrogant madmen.
This has nothing to do with playing out race differences. There can be plenty of racial uniqueness by just playing a peasant, a trader, a beggar or any of the other more common professions which do not require wiz support. You do not have to be a "noble" to do that, but I suppose claiming to come from an influential family and being the bestest buddy of npcs who can not say otherwise is more fun than to run around in rags and begging for money.

Even though I fail to see the connection between "how to roleplay a noble" and "how to roleplay my elf different than a tshahark", let me go a little bit into this topic, especially since you brought it up. I do not say that attempting to roleplay a noble is bad, but one has to back that claim up by actual facts. This includes behavior (other than an overblown speech with lots of "thy" and "thou"), deeds, power, money, influence and knowledge. Some of the mentioned criteria were achieved by players at one point or another, but I haven't seen them all united within one character. And we, the wizards, will surely not make a character the Count of Bandama with the help of code support just because he decides to be it. Especially not without contacting us with an explanation, outline and a good reason for why we should do it. Sure, he can roleplay it, but it's his job to convince the other players that it's true. Just as someone has to convince others he is a great hero, a great trader, a great beggar, whatever. And if his behavior is in contrast to what others believe, they'll naturally laugh into his face.

Therefore, if you cannot convince others of the role you want to play, first try to find the blame within your own way of playing before you put the blame on the rest of the players.

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#12 Post by isengoo » Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm

I don't think Naga meant the other players will hate him (the po), rather, they will roleplay the situation poorly, using modern ways of thinking such as "we must free the poor servant!" or "tshaharks aren't evil, even if a whole city thinks it!" and eventually kill him repeatedly in game.

Nobody wants to die a lot for strictly roleplay reasons just because the big bad (or good, in this case) lizard doesn't want to/doesn't know how to properly play along.

note - this goes for all the other races, too.

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#13 Post by Sairina » Tue May 15, 2007 2:43 pm

This has nothing to do with playing out race differences.
No, I think that was supposed to be about playing a snobbish character that's looking down on others and won't be well liked by them. But, since elves probably have a strong hierarchy, there are bound to be elven nobles as well (and they don't all have to be "Count of Bandama").

I guess, many players also refrain from playing racial differences, because they don't know them well enough. I for one know that many elves look down on humans and that humans treat thaharks like animals. I don't know what elves think about dwarves or vice versa. Of course, I'm a rather new player.

Elves might have a different language, a different god, use different weapons. But they dress the same, sing the same songs, think the same. There is no difference between the cities except for having different guilds, the shops all sell the same things, the NPCs all wear the same set of clothes. I don't know about others, but a little more cultural difference in game would at least help *me* roleplay it as well.

I like the fact that Bandama people have funny names, for example, or those rude drunks populating Naarved. It makes a difference. Elvandar, the Underground and Arborea don't really have such a thing, their NPCs are almost exchangeable - and those are the *main* cities in the game.

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#14 Post by Vargrahim » Tue May 15, 2007 2:49 pm

Abharsair wrote: Therefore, if you cannot convince others of the role you want to play, first try to find the blame within your own way of playing before you put the blame on the rest of the players.
I have personally never played or tried to play a noble, elven or otherwise. If this was not directed to me but those who have, they can most likely come up with better answers themselves to this than I can. I was writing merely as an observer.

What I wrote was meant to be an example to demonstrate the difficulties of playing such characters. I chose the nobles, since it is a rather simple "on/off" situation and there have been attempts to do this before that everyone (at least the older players) can remember. There has been at least one attempt to play a beggar that I can remember, but it was cut very short in a similar fashion by the player community, "go kill some gremlins" being the immediate answer. Reasons for not doing so, such as pacifism were quickly labeled simply stupidity (of the player as well as the character). Same can be said about the only tshahark who accepted his role as a slave that I can remember. The fighter character who was afraid of arrows and always paniced when someone was using a bow was quickly shown his place both by the characters in an OOC manner and by wizards. Any attempt to play an incompetent crusader leader is taken as incompetence of the player to take part in PvP. Even refusing to trade with certain individuals is usually considered OOC stupidity.

These are not racial features, but more generic flaws or features that I have listed here, but the same attitude exists for introducing racial flaws. I completely sympathize and agree with Naga's "not if it means sticking my neck out to play the lone bigot and suffering consequences". Playing one racist elf adds up to being one racist elf, not a feature of the race.

I am not trying to blame the wizards for this, since obviously the player community has the power to choose the direction of the RP, at least to an extent, and most of the time the efforts were nullified by other players. But one could take the crusaders and darkelves as an example of what a gentle push by the wizards to some direction can accomplish. The player community alone is very disorganized and if any effort to find agreements in OOC fashion are critized, it will most likely stay this way. Almost everything which has not received wiz acceptance and support in the past has dried out rather quickly.

I'm just trying to say it would be nice if at least some support to differ the races. It is not for my own benefit in any way, I can assure you that. I would gladly welcome any distuinguishing attributes on the human race (be it drawbacks), if that is what you would see fitting. The tshaharks for example have a few minor features on them, and I would happily see more, but also for other races, and to a little greater extent. It's all those small (or big) things that make the fantasy world so much richer.

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#15 Post by chara » Tue May 15, 2007 3:15 pm

Creating racial differences could be about much more than just prejudices against other races (though I don't have anything against prejudices against other races, persay). There could be a lot more involved in making races stand out more. And anyone who has a cool idea is welcome to discuss it with admin and see if additional support could be warranted. For example, I'd love to have different clothing sold in different cities, and some of you have even supplied some fun descriptions to get that idea started. More would always be welcome, especially for dwarves, halflings, etc. Do tshaharks have a clothing style? What do you think?

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#16 Post by nogem » Tue May 15, 2007 7:31 pm

...interesting thread and topic. It's not what it once was in rp terms, but it's there.

Chara, I've plenty more thoughts to send you way along those lines but need time to orginize them and trash the really bad ones before they waste your time too. One thought I will share is various cultures placing signifigance on various stones and that showing in weapons/armours/items from those areas. Garnet inlays in Arborean lamps/shields/daggers for example. Nothing that would change the value or functional quality per say, just a description that adds to the notion.
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#17 Post by Devi » Fri May 18, 2007 1:07 pm

they will roleplay the situation poorly, using modern ways of thinking such as "we must free the poor servant!" or "tshaharks aren't evil, even if a whole city thinks it!" and eventually kill him repeatedly in game.
I think this is a big problem, personally. I'm sure most of us remember when a few mistook ic homophobia as ooc rhetoric (I'm not sure of the details, so I may be mistaken). Of course, nearly everyone jumped to the defense of the characters. In general, Geas is a medieval world with very unfitting modern, popular liberal views. It's kind of funny that people living in Geas, on the whole, seem more progressive than people living today in the real world.

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#18 Post by isengoo » Fri May 18, 2007 8:52 pm

I would personally love to see Arborean laws restricting tshaharks greatly, and punishing them harshly for any offenses because they are viewed as a greater danger by the whole city. This can be applied to a lot of things in other cities, as well. I would hate to see *certain guilds* take it the wrong way just because their membership is made up of mostly tshaharks. Remember, you are supposed to be dealing with an entire city, not just a few isolated people.

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#19 Post by Malys » Fri May 18, 2007 10:23 pm

isengoo wrote:I would hate to see *certain guilds* take it the wrong way just because their membership is made up of mostly tshaharks. Remember, you are supposed to be dealing with an entire city, not just a few isolated people.
I can see which "certain guild" this is directed to, and I remember the said guild always defending Arborea even when a second "certain guild" tried to get all the first guild's members and allies outlawed entirely, just because the second guild happened to not like a couple of the first guild's members.

I don't think this is the right place to make subtle remarks towards certain guilds or groups, such a thing should be expressed ICly in the game.
isengoo wrote:I would personally love to see Arborean laws restricting tshaharks greatly, and punishing them harshly for any offenses because they are viewed as a greater danger by the whole city.
I would agree to this, but I would also see tshaharks belonging to guilds protecting Arborea getting a bit more rights, too. I remember a few Asral Cleric tshaharks that were treated better by npcs than non-cleric tshaharks, and I don't think it'd be wrong for it to apply to all tshaharks who are dedicated to defending Arborea (via pcs at least, not necessarily npcs). Of course, this is a matter of player-decision and roleplay, but I think it is safe to say that it's pretty risky for a city to spit in the face of a group of people who offer to help it when they could just turn a blind eye to matters. And this isn't directed towards any specific group, but defenders as a whole. The person or group that takes what help they can without prejudice often ends up better off than the 'picky' side.

But, to get this topic back on topic:

I do agree it would be interesting to see racial differences. However, I believe it also greatly depends on the imagination of players. Take tshaharks; granted, codewise they have tails, and talk with lisps (and can't count past 2, but that's only seen from a tshahark perspective), but a large majority of what makes tshaharks unique and interesting is due to the creativity done by the players of tshaharks, in my opinion. I can see the other races becoming more unique, but a part of it would depend on taking a risk to play an unordinary and possibly "eccentric" character instead of a normal or generic one.

As for racism (which it seems most people took this as), I can see it done too (little known fact: Malystryx is actually racist against anything that's not a tshahark or honorary tshahark ;)), but probably one reason it's so unpopular is because people worry they'll either make more enemies than friends out of it, or it would later come back to kick them in the rear (having your life in danger, and find out that the dwarf you just called a foul-smelling hairy rock-stump is the only one that can save you, and now he doesn't really feel in the mood to help anymore). Another reason, which might apply moreso to new characters, is the fact that most people will take help where they can, and it's hard to play a racist character after several members of that particular race you'd hate are so kind and generous to you without any strings attached.

And then there's the matter of trying to tell a 9+ foot, 500+ pound armoured lizard built like an ogre what you really think of it, without experiencing life as a pancake afterwards. :)

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#20 Post by nogem » Thu May 24, 2007 7:19 pm

When I first started playing Geas it seemed far more players tried to make culture a vivid part of their RP. There was a whole guild of heavy armour users and many tshahark chars wound up there, seeming a natural fit to their history. Most elves seemed to be heavy on bow usage, many played the high and mighty culture society. There were minor exceptions all over but it seemed as a rule chars were a fit to the racial history.

Then came my ooc friend who got me into the game in the first place. That's right, I blame Tarlonis. The tshahark who joined the Asral clergy. There seemed, at least to me, to be a massive following of "how crazy an idea can I rp" after that. I did it too.

Now it seems like many have lost interest in the crazy idea notion without the return to history, culture, or fit. One of the first things seen any time there is a new tshahark is the wooden platemail they use left laying around somewhere. They are hardly alone in immediately ignoring racial history put into the game, but that is an easy and highly visible example to give.

One thing I have seen repeated several times in this thread and others is the fear that a players RP experience will be made less enjoyable by the ic reactions of other players. Why? How boring is a movie or book with no conflict in the story somewhere? Would you watch it? Have we become so emotionally invested in the well being of that we have forgotten these are imaginary characters of our own creation in a story we cannot control?

I'll admit, it is very discouraging to have some 'hero' character tell your less-than-popular-opinioned (ie racist as hell) character that they are going to kill them 'repeatedly' and 'until no god will give you a body'. In fact, that seems to fly directly in the face of the fair play rules to me. However, it happens sometimes. If you're willing to make a character who believes 'x' you should be willing to stick it out with that character as much as you can stand to regardless of the other characters response to it. Even when you are repeatedly killed for a while, it doesn't tend to be forever. Stories move on.

I have had many times now I felt discouraged about playing a certain char because of ic reactions to it only to find out oocly the same po's were enjoying its presence and dynamic.

I guess I'm really just repeating something close to what Abh has said for a long time now. Instead of whining about the problem try playing, and even adding to the game you play.
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