Racial roleplay

Anything to say about roleplay? Want to share a story? This is the right place.

Moderator: Wizards

Message
Author
vurdijak
Hero
Posts: 357
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:28 pm

Re: Racial roleplay

#61 Post by vurdijak » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:14 pm

What kind of hard coded restrictions would be good?

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Racial roleplay

#62 Post by ganandorf » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:51 pm

Some ideas:
- dwarves have to pay more from elven shops and vice versa
- elves have to work harder to gain reputation in arborea and same for humans in elvandar

things like that i assume
Meow

User avatar
tessa
Overlord
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:03 am
Location: My own imagination.

Re: Racial roleplay

#63 Post by tessa » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:15 pm

Not letting tshaharks run for judge, or even vote for judge or become a citizen in Arborea might be something to look at, since 'equal rights' for tshaharks in Arborea is about as inconceivable as equal rights for women in the middle-east.

It'd also be nice to see halfelves treated disdainfully by human or elven npcs, since, as least as far as I know, they're supposed to be disliked rather than welcomed by both groups. And darkelves not being welcomed with open arms into Arborea by NPCs would be a nice change, since as far as I know, they're considered no-good criminals by the citizens.

As for racial divisions, this is my impression on GEAS:

Elves: Loath darkelves, hate dwarves and halfelves, dislike humans, don't think highly of tshaharks.
Humans: Hate tshaharks and halfelves, dislike elves, tend to be wary of halflings.
Dwarves: Hate elves, darkelves, and halfelves, seem to mostly get along with others.
Halflings + Tshaharks: Haven't seen anything racist from them (not counting Gerrit), though halflings may show slight contempt to 'talk folk'.

I guess halfelves could vary, from hating those that hate them, to seeking acceptance from them, or so forth.

Of course, this is nothing set in stone, but just my own interpretation from playing GEAS. Though I assume that in a serious atmosphere, there would not really be any "buddy races" and most would prefer the company of their own than outside races.

adanath
Champion
Posts: 505
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:36 am
Location: Lynchburg, VA

Re: Racial roleplay

#64 Post by adanath » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:46 pm

I think Tessa's summation rings mostly true for how it should be, and is amongst most NPC's though not really amongst most pc's.

A tshahark judge in Arborea makes as much sense as a dwarven judge in Elvandar. No offense.

halflings and tshaharks I would have to say would tend to be the "least" racist of the races, with tshaharks simply not caring but having pride in their own race. Halflings at worst seem to be wary of big people..but not overtly racist though perhaps as prideful or more so as other races of their own racial superiority.

User avatar
tessa
Overlord
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:03 am
Location: My own imagination.

Re: Racial roleplay

#65 Post by tessa » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:18 pm

I would say one reason halflings may not appear so racist is due to not having a culture capital like humans, elves, and dwarves do, where most of these traits are found in. But I could very much see them having dislike of tall people, and perhaps be more tolerable of the dwarves.

vurdijak
Hero
Posts: 357
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:28 pm

Re: Racial roleplay

#66 Post by vurdijak » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:11 am

Sure a tshahark judge in Arborea is heinous, but sometimes you get those results with a Democracy. Sort of like how we got Bush.

Would it be too much to put religious coded restrictions on races? I know tshaharks can only be so-so clerics because of restrictions. What about limiting the possibility of some races to be as potent clerics as others. For instance, an elf would make the best cleric of Taniel while a dwarf would face lots of hurdles. If applied retroactively, this might be unfair to those who made characters a while back. But most Asral clerics are humans, half-elves, or dwarves, most Taniel clerics are humans, elves, or half-elves, and most Sathos are humans or darkelves, so we seem to be regulating ourselves pretty well on that front.

User avatar
sun
Master
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Racial roleplay

#67 Post by sun » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:17 am

vurdijak wrote:Sure a tshahark judge in Arborea is heinous, but sometimes you get those results with a Democracy. Sort of like how we got Bush.

Would it be too much to put religious coded restrictions on races? I know tshaharks can only be so-so clerics because of restrictions. What about limiting the possibility of some races to be as potent clerics as others. For instance, an elf would make the best cleric of Taniel while a dwarf would face lots of hurdles. If applied retroactively, this might be unfair to those who made characters a while back. But most Asral clerics are humans, half-elves, or dwarves, most Taniel clerics are humans, elves, or half-elves, and most Sathos are humans or darkelves, so we seem to be regulating ourselves pretty well on that front.
It's funny you say that .. this is already the way it works. The problem is that such racial differences are not visible enough.

That is partly what I mean about racism. If you don't make your stand visibly, noone will notice anyway. And then it won't contribute at all to the atmosphere.

User avatar
tessa
Overlord
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:03 am
Location: My own imagination.

Re: Racial roleplay

#68 Post by tessa » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:58 am

vurdijak wrote:Sure a tshahark judge in Arborea is heinous, but sometimes you get those results with a Democracy.
I disagree. A democracy is one thing, but going contrary to what Arborea and its human residents believe in is another. I don't really mean to criticize RP here, but I find it very disappointing when the culture and lore and background of the game are completely disregarded in favour of convenience. Especially when the same people then complain about how the mud is boring or how there's no racial differences or anything.
That is partly what I mean about racism. If you don't make your stand visibly, noone will notice anyway.
I can agree with that, but the problem is, usually when you make your stand visibly, you get lynch mobbed by nearly everyone else who happens to be friends with the person you're trying to slur, and few others care to support you because they prefer to avoid confrontation.

User avatar
sun
Master
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Racial roleplay

#69 Post by sun » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:44 am

vurdijak wrote:What kind of hard coded restrictions would be good?
- Deny tshaharks all positions in which they look silly.. e.g. archbishop, judge..
- Make tshaharks unable to buy/repair weapons in Arborea
- Have guards follow/track/guide tshaharks in Arborea (perhaps just randomly and for shorter distances)
- Price citizenship differently.. e.g. Arborea humans pay 5gc, halflings/dwarves pay 10gc, tshaharks pay 20.. and elves perhaps even 30 "since they can afford it".
- Make dwarves pay customs as they enter Elvandar and vice versa
- Make half-elves complete some extra "I'm not gonna marry a human" quest before they can become citizens in Elvandar.. (this quest must of course make their life harder in arborea too)
- Outlaw darkelves in all cities

But restrictions is not the only thing needed. I could picture something like special allowances for races too:

- Allow elves to organize/vote on the elvandar defense, where the guards should stand, get free arrows for their quivers..
- Make all humans who sign-up for the garrison get some special weapon and armours services like free sharpening and repair etc..
- Give dwarves free gem-cuttings in the underground..

In general NPC's can give more comments and detailed behaviour depending on the race (although actually on the reputation, which should partly be based on race). But this is all I can think of for the moment.. I'm sure I missed plenty of oppurtunities, it's really just up to the imagination..

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Racial roleplay

#70 Post by Delia » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:09 am

I wonder how many hard-coded restrictions would be actually needed, some of the suggestions sounded good though.
- Make tshaharks unable to buy/repair weapons in Arborea
I could rather see tshaharks receiving "special" prices and service. Smiths doing a sloppy job and the weapon seller giving a 'just for you' weapon from the special shelf. Exaggerated prices(cheating the poor tshahark) and snide remarks could be fun too. Then again one could argument why would a soft, vulnerable feeling human deal with a three meter killing machine from hell, let alone let it inside the shop past the guards. Reputation could influence this greatly.
- Outlaw darkelves in all cities
I rather not see this hard-coded either. Having once witnessed one particular event in which known murderous bastards were allowed inside the city as a counter-measure, it managed to convey a particular 'end of the times' feeling. I believe no-one will easily go back to the old times when dark elves were fluffy pleasant hard working citizens with a cool and slightly sinister tag attached to them.
- Deny tshaharks all positions in which they look silly.. e.g. archbishop, judge..
There actually was a human contender for the position if I am not entirely mistaken. The funny thing is the tshahark won with over ten votes or so...Atleast in Arborea a tshahark in any official position does not sound very plausible, perhaps elsewhere depending on the case a minor position could work. Guess its a problem of PC's vs. the multitude of NPC's not granted voices - the PC's can overrule the sentiments of the invisible townsfolk. So there might be something here. Still, the game situation is entertaining in a way.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

vurdijak
Hero
Posts: 357
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:28 pm

Re: Racial roleplay

#71 Post by vurdijak » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:19 am

If a tshahark judge is 'contrary to what Arborea and its human residents believe in', then the player base should have voted for someone else, which they didnt. In fact, the last person to blame is the tshahark who ran, or the player of. He should have been a laughing stock, and maybe punished as a criminal for even running. If you are targeting the people who voted for him, then you should make that clear. It sounds like you are targeting the tshahark for putting his name in the hat.

"I don't really mean to criticize RP here, but I find it very disappointing when the culture and lore and background of the game are completely disregarded in favour of convenience."

You are criticizing RP, but thats ok because this IS the roleplay thread. Hopefully the situation will result in better RP and cause the players of Geas to carefully consider who they vote for and why.

adanath
Champion
Posts: 505
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:36 am
Location: Lynchburg, VA

Re: Racial roleplay

#72 Post by adanath » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:22 am

Actually, it is more that an NPC was not wished to be judge. Right before the voting ended it was tied with the tshahark at 6 and the human at 6..thank goodness some tried to roleplay..however at resolution the npc dropped out and the tshahark had 12 votes..sorry to burst all your bubbles. And yes, it is horrendous roleplay for a city that hates a race to elect one in. One of the worst roleplay examples I have ever seen since playing geas.

It has nothing to do with Kors for putting his name in. Why would he be at fault? It is the human citizens especially and other arborean citizens here that I criticize.

User avatar
sun
Master
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Racial roleplay

#73 Post by sun » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:36 am

Delia wrote:Guess its a problem of PC's vs. the multitude of NPC's not granted voices - the PC's can overrule the sentiments of the invisible townsfolk. So there might be something here. Still, the game situation is entertaining in a way.
I was thinking about it, but I never wrote it.. yet it's an interesting thought to make the townspeople NPC's randomly give a couple of votes - not to overrule PC's, but at least 2-4 or something. If townspeople really have an idea - why not let it be heard..?
adanath wrote:It has nothing to do with Kors for putting his name in. Why would he be at fault? It is the human citizens especially and other arborean citizens here that I criticize.
Yeah I kind of implied that too. Just to make it clear - I am also not attacking Kors for his RP, if anything it's the votes that stink.. actually I'm kind of glad that he had the cohones for it.. It's just sad that he doesn't really need em.

User avatar
jezz
Hero
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Spain

Re: Racial roleplay

#74 Post by jezz » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:40 am

And here we have another of example of "everyone wants to be a friend of a tshahark because they are hella strong" example.

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Racial roleplay

#75 Post by Delia » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:41 am

A candidate with a good/splendid reputation should receive extra votes. Guess something like the opposition of an unreputable/unwanted candidate could receive extra votes also in addition to the possible good reputation?*shrug* Might be tricky if there is a surplus of candidates....
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

User avatar
sun
Master
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Racial roleplay

#76 Post by sun » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:49 am

Delia wrote:I could rather see tshaharks receiving "special" prices and service. Smiths doing a sloppy job and the weapon seller giving a 'just for you' weapon from the special shelf. Exaggerated prices(cheating the poor tshahark) and snide remarks could be fun too.
That is a great idea too, especially the part about exploiting his lack of intelligence..
Delia wrote:
- Outlaw darkelves in all cities
I rather not see this hard-coded either. Having once witnessed one particular event in which known murderous bastards were allowed inside the city as a counter-measure, it managed to convey a particular 'end of the times' feeling. I believe no-one will easily go back to the old times when dark elves were fluffy pleasant hard working citizens with a cool and slightly sinister tag attached to them.
Ok, you have a point. The darkelf-racism is probably already good enough.

Zengo
Professional
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:38 pm

Re: Racial roleplay

#77 Post by Zengo » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:58 am

Honestly, things like this happen often. Maybe just not as publicly noticeable.

You constantly have (and it happens in all guilds) people not wanting to hunt their guilds enemies because they were "friendly" to them. I see this very often. You have people following gods because "their friends follow them, and they do not like followers of the other gods". This is the only excuse they give ICly for their actions. The list can go on and on, and it just keeps continuing to happen. It gets worse because we (the players) do nothing about it IC. Having played multiple chars in multiple guilds, I can honestly say I witness this all the time. There have only been a very select few guilds who actually do something about it. The typical response when approached about these things is usually something similar to "yes, I know this....but I would rather not make XYZ upset"

A hark judge in Arborea is amusing at best. Right now you see a few people actually trying to voice their opinion about it. However, those people are not citizens. Also, I don't see how so many of these people object it now, but somehow he got voted in?

I can only see two solutions to these problems.

1. Us (the players) actually start doing something about these problems instead of just agreeing that they are problems.

2. The wizards actually have to hard code restrictions and monitor the MUD 24/7 like we are unable to think rationally for ourselves.

I think we all agree that #2 is out of question and not a reasonable action.

A hark judge in Arborea is nothing compared to some of the things that happen on the MUD. It is just the most visible to all the players at once.

User avatar
sun
Master
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Racial roleplay

#78 Post by sun » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:59 am

jezz wrote:And here we have another of example of "everyone wants to be a friend of a tshahark because they are hella strong" example.
Yes, it is very inconvenient to RP - and it sucks when people take that path. The way I see it can be solved by making some game-mechanics to ease the resistance to such and also point players in the sane direction. It might not always be so obvious.. but for example in this case, if your neighbours gave your name to the authorities for voting on a tshahark, it suddenly is.. if you are constantly reminded about the structures of society it gets much harder to ignore them... or should I say, appreciate them from the start.

I would for one love to see a "slave rebellion" of tshaharks against humans, but the point is, that can't even happen before they are actually at least considered "less worth" by the majority of human characters.

User avatar
sun
Master
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Racial roleplay

#79 Post by sun » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:20 pm

Zengo wrote:1. Us (the players) actually start doing something about these problems instead of just agreeing that they are problems.

2. The wizards actually have to hard code restrictions and monitor the MUD 24/7 like we are unable to think rationally for ourselves.
Yeah.. I gave up on #1 long ago. I'd rather go for #1.5. Sorry if I'm sounding pessimistic.

Zengo
Professional
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:38 pm

Re: Racial roleplay

#80 Post by Zengo » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:25 pm

Well......I still try for #1 constantly. However it is just a bit disheartening usually. Most people do not want to "hurt their friends feelings" or usually sacrifice basic RP for their own convenience to avoid conflict.

I suppose 1.5 would be a little bit of intervention to force the players to actually do what is necessary in situations that obviously need them?
Honestly, I would agree with this. However, if we are all going to play this MUD together we need to be able to make logical RP decisions on our own.

But you know.....after witnessing some of the things I have witnessed, I suppose 1.5 would help tremendously. Except for the fact we are not children and can not be monitored 24/7.

We are here to MUD, not to be babysat.

Post Reply