Racial roleplay

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ramandu
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Re: Racial roleplay

#101 Post by ramandu » Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:44 am

tessa wrote: (by bad examples, I don't mean . . . things like cute and cuddly darkelves, asralites that proclaim love, peace, and friendship, evrenites that hang out with the neighborhood satho, etc.).

I agree with much of what Tessa posted, yet well-chosen and well thought-out breaking of the stereotypes of the races, guilds, relegious doctrine is part of what makes RP so much fun and the game environment dynamic. Granted, the key is well thought-out and well-chosen and not based on OOC reasons. Flat and static characters are needed and fun to play in their own right, but conflicted and dynamic characters help to add flavor and the unexpected. I enjoy thinking that there may be times that a dark-elf could have a tender and intimate moment and I would enjoy seeing how that character RP'ed those types of emotions. (I doubt that Ram will ever see such a moment, but I hope you see the point.)

Additionally, I think that IC actions have amazing effects if RP'ed correctly. Ram was the first character I created and had never read the forum, but others' reactions to Ram and others' modling quickly redirected how I played Ram and I am still trying to reconcile my early mistakes in RPing him - but this is part of the fun. I think our lack of inaction to inappropriate RP is just as bad a the inappropriate RP. If that means someone gets beaten up or kidnapped as a newbie, so be it. If that means a lynch mob decends upon the Arborean courthouse for a suspected rigged election, all the better. I am surprised the others have not called out Ram on many of his actions and inactions that are more purposeful now, but were quite the accident in my early days on Geas.
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Re: Racial roleplay

#102 Post by chara » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:19 am

I haven't read through this whole thread yet, but I would like to address the idea of Elvish females being damsels in distress -- they're really not. The Elves did not generally have any idea of sexism at all. Elvish females fought in armies, ruled, and generally did everything else that men did, as long as their skills and talents were suitable for the job.

I also wouldn't say Elves hate such and such races. When it comes to Dwarves, they feel a deep lack of understanding. What the Dwarves tend to value is at odds with what the Elves tend to value. They find many of their pursuits distasteful or even disgusting. That's not the same as hating them as a race, though.

Towards the humans, there is a level of acceptance over a lot of bad blood. The war with the humans was devastating and horrible for the Elves, and they rememeber it keenly. Many of the Elves remember Eal-Delilah for the beautiful city it once was, many had relatives, friends, lovers that they remember dying in the slaughter or in the war, and they think the entire war was profoundly unfair.

But they also agreed -- many of them personally! -- to the treaty, and they want to make it work. They've moved on from those old wounds, but they haven't forgotten them, and full trust doesn't come easy.

Similarly, they remember the help that the halflings gave them in their time of need, and are therefore much more fond of them and tolerant toward them than you would expect from Elves.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#103 Post by sun » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:32 pm

Chara, is that official lore or just your opinion? Or if it is official lore, how am I supposed to know about it? Can I read more somewhere?

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Re: Racial roleplay

#104 Post by Zengo » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:18 pm

Well, she is the domain lord in Elvandar, so I assume it is official lore?

It would be nice to have full access to this info though ;)

If it is already available IC though, I suppose we just have to find the books/NPCs to learn it from.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#105 Post by Liranne » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:08 pm

Wow this really snow-balled into a big one. I was almost content to relax my rp since I thought that maybe I was playing a character not thematically compatible with the mud. Now I see this is not so.

Race and religion (like in the world world) are strong here in the mud. They seem to form templates of behavior. I'm not too fond of D&D alignments like LG, CE, N, etc. I much prefer the palldium alignment spectrum (yeah, I'm dating myself - Kevin Sembida is still older than me) of principled to diabolic as it gives a pretty good guideline (for me) to follow. How do you guys see alignment in roleplay? My character

Alot of people here, Tessa and Zengo, have mentioned the kumbiya-huggie-kissie-fluffy snuggle bunny atmosphere that seems to be accepted and dare anyone defy the snuggle bunny - woe unto you! With that said, why does it seem that it's easy to just abandon the ethos of a guild and even the guild itself. I'm all for applying a severe penalty for just casting off a guild (like stat reduction based on how long a person has been in the guild)?

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Re: Racial roleplay

#106 Post by Liranne » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:21 pm

FYI Here are the Palladium alignments. There's not true neutral here.

The good...
Because someone is of a good alignment it doesn't make him a saint. Good people can be just as irritating, abnoxious, arrogant, even prejudiced, and full of quirks. However, life and freedom are of the highest priority. Such people can always be trusted in life and death situations.
Principled

Principled people are generally strong moral characters. They have the highest regard for others' lives, well being, truth and honor.

Principled characters...

1- Always keep their word.
2- Avoid lies.
3- Never kill or attack an unarmed foe.
4- Never harm an innocent.
5- Never torture for any reason.
6- Never kill for pleasure.
7- Always help others.
8- Work well in a group.
9- Respect authority, law, self-discipline and honor.
10- Never betray a friend.

Scrupulous

Scrupulous people have a high regard for life and freedom. They work for the greater good of the people, beyond the law, yet for the law.

Scrupulous characters...

1- Keep their word to any other good persons.
2- Lie only to people of selfish and evil alignments.
3- Never kill or attack an unarmed foe.
4- Never harm an innocent.
5- Never torture for pleasure.
6- Never kill for pleasure.
7- Help others.
8- Work with groups, but dislike confining laws and restrictions.
9- Distrust authority.
10- Never betray a friend.


The selfish alignments
Being selfish is no crime and it is different from being evil. Selfish people can associate with good and evil characters depending on their needs.

Unprincipled

Unprincipled characters are basically good people who generally tend to put their personal freedom and welfare above almost everything else.

Unprincipled characters...

1- Have a high regard for life and freedom.
2- Keep their word of honor.
3- Lie and cheat if necessary.
4- Will not kill an unarmed foe but can take advantage of one.
5- Help those in need.
6- Do not use torture unless absolutely necessary.
7- Work with a group, especially if profitable.
8- Never harm an innocent.
9- Never kill for pleasure.
10- Dislike authority.
11- Never betray a friend.

Anarchist

Anarchist characters indulge themselves in everything. They are generally intrigued by power, glory and wealth and are continually teetering between good and evil, rebelling, bending the laws to fit their needs.

Anarchist characters...

1- May keep their word.
2- Lie and cheat if they feel it necessary.
3- Are not likely to kill an unarmed foe but will certainly take advantage of one.
4- Will not kill innocent people unless necessary.
5- Are not likely to help others without some ulterior motives.
6- Seldom kill for pleasure.
7- Will use torture only to extract information.
8- Do not work well in groups.
9- Have little respect for self-discipline and authority.
10- May betray a friend.

Miscreant

These people are generally self-serving, unscrupulous characters, out only for themselves. It matters not who get caught in the middle as long as they come out with what they want.

The evil alignments
All evil characters are not all bent on universal genocide or domination over all living creatures. They are ruthless individuals who are willing to say or do anything to achieve their goals. Evil alignments are a step beyond the self-gratification of the selfish alignments.

Miscreant characters...

1- Will not necessarily keep their word to anyone.
2- Lie and cheat anyone.
3- Will most definitely attack an unarmed foe.
4- Use or harm innocent people.
5- May kill for sheer pleasure.
6- Use torture for extracting information and pleasure.
7- Feel no compulsion to help without some sort of tangible reward.
8- Work with others if it will help them attain their goals.
9- Will kill an unarmed foe.
10- Has no respect for law and authority, but will work within the law if they must.
11- Will betray friends if it serves their needs.
.
Aberrant

Aberrant characters are people who are driven to attain their goals through force, power, and intimidation. Yet they will stand apart from the norm with their own personal code of ethics.

Aberrant characters...

1- Always keep their word of honor.
2- Lie and cheat only to those not worthy of their respect.
3- May or may not kill an unarmed foe.
4- Do not kill innocent people without a good reason.
5- Never kill for pleasure.
6- Do not resort to inhumane treatment of prisonners but may torture to extract information.
7- May or may not help someone in need.
8- Work with others to attain their goals.
9- Respect honor and self-discipline.
10- Never betray a friend.

Diabolic

This is the category where megalomaniac, violent, and most despicable characters fall. Diabolic people will crush anyone or anything that gets in their way.

Diabolic characters...

1- Rarely keep their word.
2- Lie and cheat anyone.
3- Will most certainly attack and kill an unarmed foe.
4- Use, hurt and kill innocent people without second thoughts.
5- Use torture for pleasure and information.
6- Kill for sheer pleasure.
7- Are likely to help someone only to kill and rob him after.
8- Do not work well in groups.
9- Despise honor, authority, and self-discipline.
10- Betray friends.



Now I see races and religions falling into certain alignment. I can almost see an Aberrant Crusader or zealous priest of Taniel but certainly not a principled Sathonite.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#107 Post by amrat » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:31 pm

It's great to finally get some of the characteristics of the races defined more properly. I have a few additional questions if you don't mind.
chara wrote:The Elves did not generally have any idea of sexism at all. Elvish females fought in armies, ruled, and generally did everything else that men did, as long as their skills and talents were suitable for the job.
Equality, ok, but I am not quite sure what this means in practice. Does this mean that elven men and women are physically similar with no differences in height or build? Or is it a characteristic of the society with men more likely to join the armies because of biological factors anyway?

What does this mean in terms of social behaviour? Is there any "genetic coding" for men to be protective over women? Or is it frowned upon by the society while some behavioural patterns would otherwise exist? Does this apply also when pregnancies or small children are involved?

If the behaviour of the genders is exactly the same, how does it compare to the RL male/female behaviour in terms of things like competitiveness or "mating rituals"/preferences when it comes to finding a mate?
chara wrote:I also wouldn't say Elves hate such and such races. When it comes to Dwarves, they feel a deep lack of understanding. What the Dwarves tend to value is at odds with what the Elves tend to value. They find many of their pursuits distasteful or even disgusting. That's not the same as hating them as a race, though.
What are these values that are at odds? Clearly the Geas elves are not the cliché treehuggers of most fantasy, nor are the dwarves allergic to sunlight and eating rocks (Rockhome for example is above the ground). Instead of having magical houses in trees the elves seem to value gems and metals as much as a dwarf does. It would seem like this was the case long before they even met, which means elves were digging it up themselves. The elves do not seem incapable of war either. What is the deep lack of understanding about? With beards and all, I have considered dwarven society to be rather equal between genders as well.
chara wrote:...humans...
What about humans? Are they "genetically" and society-wise comparable to, let's say, norse people (with Asral probably closest to certain Norse God) at medieval times?

@Amrat

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Re: Racial roleplay

#108 Post by ramandu » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:02 pm

amrat wrote:What about humans? Are they "genetically" and society-wise comparable to, let's say, norse people (with Asral probably closest to certain Norse God) at medieval times?
I see humans as being the most diverse and likely more influenced by origin than elves would be. In making a human character, I think the stats that one sets at the beginning ought to reflect that upbringing.
--
Arborea:
I see the humans from Arborea reflecting the city: the human capital, the seat of the scribes and skalds, most every trade guild has an outpost there, as well as the central government. I see the humans from Arborea less rugged, more civilized, and more adept at dexterous tasks. Still more rough-and-tumble than a metro-sexual, but in comparison, Arborea would be where one could see a fop (who would die in the wilderness) doing OK for himself. Also these humans at least recognize that the law exists and breaking the law is more of a willful choice than a flippant whim.
--
The forest:
There is also the Arborean forest where humans and elves may see one another more and where the rule of law is less enforced. I see the rangers, the Elvandor guard, the Druids, seafarers who venture away from the coast, brigands, the various caves/canyons/hills/slopes making such an upbringing more colorful, yet more harsh than the city. A true duality of law and common sense.
--
Coastal Cities:
The more seafaring cities would produce lighter, less civilized (but perhaps more fun) folk: pirates, seafarers, street merchants. Breaking the law here has less consequences and they may be very well surprised about how lawful other cities are.
--
The Plains:
The Amward plains are home of the gypsies. There they contend with sneaking darkelves (who must have an encampment somewhere), bugbear and goblin encampments, a roving giant beast that eats what it can catch, and an occasional abduction. To the south, there is the shadow of a the goblinoid controlled city of IronHold, terror filled swamplands, a forest filled with Orcs, Orc shamen, a few undead, and Vittra -- ever read the description of one of these things! Regardless, these nomadic traders would be tough and know how to survive, but they are gypsies! So, they would have to know how to have a good party too.
--
The North:
I cannot comment on how those from Asador would be, but I have a few guesses. Usurers, corruption, loan-shark, mob-boss, fence, pimp . . . but maybe these all imply too much order? Regardless, I see then as having more intelligence and dexterity than their barbaric neighbors. I also see them as having a pretty wide mean streak. The barbarians are Asral followers on the edge of the world. They likely live as the inuits/opening 10 minutes of Connan the Barbarian style village/mogols. I see women and men having vastly different roles. I see pride, honor, and feats of strength as being a huge deal. I see the boys having a rite of passage of some sort as well.
--
In summary:
These are just ideas and the norms that I see in the areas. At the peripheries,the Gypsies from the plains likely rely on their wisdom and agility, where the humans in Arborea forest rely on a balance, and the tundra barbarians . . . .well, they are barbarians. Surely there is the outcast barbarian that is smaller and weaker, but in general I see humans from the Tundra as being stronger, wiser, but less intelligent than one who grew up in any of the human cites. And surely there is the big dumb stable boy in the city, but their place of origin and their strengths add to RP. The big strong and less intelligent barbarian would be proud and arrogant and be less willing to ever admit that he/she was second class citizen, whereas the big dumb stable boy would have a more difficult time understanding that his size and strength could be turned into assets. Likewise, the small and agile barbarian would more likely take refuge in Asador and carry resentment to those who shunned him. Likewise, women and men would regard each other and themselves differently depending on their origin. Certainly the roles of gender equality will vary – I see the gypsies and maybe the Asadorarians (??) having more equality and the barbarians far less.
--
Other ideas:
I Humans born under Arborea, in Elvandor, in Jameteys, in the dwarven city, in Ironhold?? (could there be a human enclave there?), across the seas. I am sure that the poorly treated under-classes from various cities would bring rise to fun up-and-coming sathonites and thieves.
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Re: Racial roleplay

#109 Post by chara » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:04 pm

There are physical differences between Elvish males and females, with the females generally being more lithe and curvaceous. Both genders tend to be tall, but males are a bit taller. Neither Elven males or females tend to be overly bulky, and as anyone who has played an Elf knows, brute strength is not one of their strong points whether you're playing a man or a women.

There are also differences in temperament, although these vary widely from individual to individual (as with any other race, even our own).

Elves just don't think of males or females being automatically more or less fit for certain jobs. As you can see in game, female Elves serve as guards. Gwenlanea is Queen, and her father was King before her -- males and females can both rule.

Of course, physical makeup may make people more or less suited for some jobs. Is it an accident that the two smiths in Elvandar are a human and a dwarf? But generally it's not assumed that women are automatically weaker then men.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#110 Post by chara » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:13 pm

As for their disagreements with the Dwarves, Elves tend to prize refinement and grace. They usually find the obsession with finding and cutting gems to be distasteful, although they certainly enjoy the results of those activities. They find the hard-drinking rowdiness of Dwarves goes against their grain. Dwarves are short, rough, loud, and hairy, which they find distasteful. They just simply don't mix well.

Elves and Dwarves have a long history of sharing Forostar alone, before any other races hit the scene, which gives them a kind of attachment that other races can't compare. On the other hand, the Dwarves were slow to join the war against the Humans, and there might be some lingering resentment that they didn't try to help until long after Eal-Deliah had been plundered.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#111 Post by sun » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:01 am


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Re: Racial roleplay

#112 Post by stilgar » Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:46 am

Though hereby I have to claim I did not read through the whole thread (sry, beeing lazy lately :twisted: ) yet I have to say its quite interesting that most of you tries to pull almost the same stereotypes on a given race. I would personally never say that "elves" or "dwarves" or "humans" are proud, or tricky, or honest in general. Racial roleplay in these terms would be quite hardly defined if could be defined at all. I'd say instead Elvandar's society or Underground's society etc.

That is already happened in the game already as we all know about members of different races who migrated to a place that stands closer to their personal views, or stayed and struggled against the local expectations.
Expecting a certain race to be roleplayed a certain way, would lead to schematic characters. That is why I like the features of saysound and alike.
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Re: Racial roleplay

#113 Post by tessa » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:00 am

I don't think races should be RP'd in a black and white way, but I would certainly like to see differences between the races (or some RP reasons for going against the grain) rather than the "neutering" of races by making them all identical in personality and ethics.

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Re: Racial roleplay

#114 Post by Delia » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:43 am

The discussion is not about(IMO) how to roleplay a given race, but what the common Joe of that said race is like, or rather the perception of that said Joe. Having established how the stereotypical person feels, thinks and acts its easier to paint the bigger picture.
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Re: Racial roleplay

#115 Post by ramandu » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:20 pm

stilgar wrote: I would personally never say that "elves" or "dwarves" or "humans" are proud, or tricky, or honest in general. Racial roleplay in these terms would be quite hardly defined if could be defined at all. I'd say instead Elvandar's society or Underground's society etc.

That is already happened in the game already as we all know about members of different races who migrated to a place that stands closer to their personal views, or stayed and struggled against the local expectations.
Expecting a certain race to be roleplayed a certain way, would lead to schematic characters. That is why I like the features of saysound and alike.
I agree, yet in building a character, I find it useful to consider what nature vs nurture forces are at play. Growing up in various communities and geography have real influences and if you choose to RP contray to those influences, then it is at least building in a bit of backstory.
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Re: Racial roleplay

#116 Post by stilgar » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:06 am

ramandu wrote:I agree, yet in building a character, I find it useful to consider what nature vs nurture forces are at play. Growing up in various communities and geography have real influences and if you choose to RP contray to those influences, then it is at least building in a bit of backstory.
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