Race & Cities

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gojin
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Race & Cities

#1 Post by gojin » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:28 pm

The following is just my opinion and shouldnt be taken as judgement in others rp, or as an attack on any guild. This is not at all what I intend, please do not misunderstand:

I dislike how the current rp in Geas has caused a sort of racial shift in cities. For instance, and correct me if im wrong but, there have been human, dwarf and half-elf judges in Elvandar but never an Elf while there have been 2 elf judges and a dwarf in Arborea but never a human. I know this is difficult to control and that everyone has a say in who is a judge where but this is effected by a few things too.

Which guild has influence in which city has a lot to do with the shift as well. Crusaders are more likely to attract human/tshahark/dwarf chars but they have huge influence in Elvandar. This not only brings alot of human/tshahark/dwarf chars into elvandar but the way the guild is rp also drives out most of the elf chars(at least the 5 or 6 non-guild elf chars who play regularly).

What happens to the elf chars that are driven out? What ive found is that they commonly leave Taniel and become Asral worshippers because they find themselves in trouble in Elvandar(common for alot of newbies) and hence unable to recieve the benefits of Taniel. Asral is accessible and Arborea is alot more free. Has anyone else noticed that nearly every new Asral worshipper is an elf? I only know 1 human who is an Asral Cleric. Same question does anyone know an elf who isnt a Taniel Cleric who worships Taniel? Im sure there are one or two... I just havent seen one in awhile. Of course ive never met a dwarf who worships Zhakrin.

All this is hard to fix and the only way to fix it is to rp it out. Also, it is very possible to rp a guildless character in Geas. I dislike it when a char joins a guild simply because he or she NEEDS to be in a guild. If guildless chars became a bit more influential in cities Geas would be a better world. If you have 2 or 3 friends you rp with regularly... guess what you are probably as strong in numbers as most of the guilds.

This post is long enough already and I feel like i havent made the points I wanted to so Ill stop here... maybe ill continue the thread later.

PO Goj

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#2 Post by ganandorf » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:50 pm

i agree with you 100%, but because this is a game, where players can choose what they do, they are not forced to DO anything, it looks like there is not much that can be done about this.

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#3 Post by gojin » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:51 pm

I am of course not asking that anything be forced on anyone. Am hoping someone might have an idea to help the situation is all. Or even for everyone to say that they dont mind this at all. The game is still completely playable and fun. I just dont like the trend of most pc elves calling Arborea home and most pc dwarves calling Elvandar home, etc.

Basically, am I the only player who is bothered by this?

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#4 Post by Sairina » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:59 am

Maybe this partially also happens because nobody wants to play the "standard" elf/dwarf/whatever? ;)

I know that this was not meant as offence in any way, but I still feel kind of bad about it, because I'm playing an asralite elf myself, and now it feels as if I have to justify myself. I'm a relative newbie, but I didn't flee Elvandar, nor was I banned. It just kind of happened, because I let things go as they went, and most people I met in my first hours of play were from Arborea.

My second char is a half-elf, and though I intend her to live in Elvandar, she is forced to be in Arborea a lot because of being a skald. And, by the way, I don't see what's wrong about joining a guild? Sairina is still guildless, and while in the beginning I thought that she should join one for more interaction with other players - well, the guilds don't really serve this role, at least the skalds do not. Still, it *does* give the characters more skills and therefore more possibilities. Some learn to write, to do magic, to do alchemy, to play an instrument, or to fight a special style. This also adds diversity to the game, and if they are roleplayed as is fitting for their guild as well, I think we all can only win through this.

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#5 Post by tessa » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:05 am

Here's my view on it (which may or may not be correct):

Crusaders are a heavy PK guild. Therefore, it's logical that most races who join this guild are among the most physically stronger races (tshaharks, dwarves, humans), than the weaker ones (halfelves, elves, halflings). And, since Elvandar is the center of Taniel worship, and the large majority of Crusaders worship Taniel (most likely due to guild support, whereas Evren has none (not really counting Druids since their image of Evren tends to clash with the Crusaders' image of Evren)), it's only natural that the mass of Crusaders would flock there.

As for the few if any dwarves worshipping Zhakrin, that goes along the same reason why Gwen/Lilith/Evren worship is scarce: no guild support.

Also, I'm not sure if this was included, but the reason why few dwarves would claim Underground as home, would IMO be solely due to the lack of politics/law/court of Underground, as well as guild support or other special features, which the other three main cities (Arborea, Asador, Elvandar) have. If more influence was put on the Underground, we'd probably find more attention there.

As for most new Asral worshippers being elves, the four that come to mind right off, are OOC friends with Asral players as far as I know. Since they'd probably want to RP and play with their buddies, it's probably only natural that their chars would join the same "circle" as their friends.

Also, many guilds give special abilities, better equipment, new friends, and etc., so it's not unexpected that several characters would want to join one. Especially since guilds are low in numbers, and are likely trying to recruit people as much as possible. If guilds were more filled up, maybe less people would be joining them, but when guilds average 0-3 members, they'll probably be pretty quick to try to gain numbers.

Also:
For instance, and correct me if im wrong but, there have been human, dwarf and half-elf judges in Elvandar but never an Elf
Correction: Cathal was an elf and the judge of Elvandar at one point.

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#6 Post by Delia » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:19 am

I would love if the cities offered more services, mainly the Underground and Elvandar, propably Asador too. What irks me the most is the fact that Arborea looks culturally more significant than Elvandar, given the fact that the Skalds and Scribes are there. Elvandar almost looks like a shabby border outpost in comparison. In this light, its hard to be PRO-Elvandar elf, as Delia needs to run 95% of all her errands in Arborea, and any bad relations with the human city would ruin her life, more or less. Even if the scribes are established in Elvandar, the Elvandar scribes still would need to bow to every whim of Arborea, as the production facilities are all there...While its not necessarily the biggest problem out there, it certainly makes you wonder from time to time.
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#7 Post by Vargrahim » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:17 pm

I have earlier started a thread which was an attempt at discussing something similiar to this (viewtopic.php?t=589), but it seemed to spin off into a discussion about predjudice and other matters. However, I agree with poGojin, and I am also bothered.

I would personally love to see the majority of elves preferring Elvandar, and for example having quite different values/ethics/morals than i.e. humans. Not in a forcing way, but in a way so that the player feels hes character is a "good part of the story" and therefore enjoys it better. When most Asrals are dwarven and the humans run Elvandar, it looks as if everything is not as it was meant to be (IMHO). The problem is that there is absolutely nothing that biases a certain race to be in a certain way.

One way of solving this is to make cities more diverse and more aimed at specific races. For example, making an atmosphere where it is easier for elves to be accepted and come well off and satisfying "elven needs" (such as scribes).

For another example, I would love to see an elven council in an ancient tree somewhere in the city where only the most prominent elves of the city are invited to make important decisions in the city. The human towns would of course having nothing similiar as their race is more primitive and would probably instead settle with an almighty leader/commander or a king (to be honest, I was never too pleased with having a court in Arborea, but I can accept it is a sign of evolution since their arrival).

Another measure is to make the city more specialized in trade (and production/craftsmanship). I find the cities selling too much of the same kind of produect, and offering too much the same kind of service. Even if it is convenient, it would be nice if one actually had to travel a bit to acquire a sip of Elven wine or get a good looking haircut. Another example concerning the craftsmanship/trade is that the scribes guild is better off in Elvandar (this was discussed and changed, I belive).

Races without cities is the real dilemma, since they seem to lack a history or culture (mainly half-elves, tshaharks since I think halflings belong to Elvandar, atleast historically allied with the elves, and the dwarves *do* have an outpost, even if it is not a real town, and the dark-elves are kind of outcasts of society anyway).

Apart from "what is available where", I think more of the race bonuses/penalties could be more visible to the player. The services of a city is one concrete aspect, but I think it is not the full story. People tend to play as they are stimulated, e.g. if you would gain intelligence by bathing naked in bearnaise sauce in the alchemist's water tub, I'm sure that is what 50% of the players would do (well, almost). Making advantages and disadvantages more visible/understood to the player is a good way of steering behaviour, even if the actual action is not that important, partly because it adds up to many things in the end (I remember how the penalty from death was made more visible and had more effect even while it was at the same level).

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#8 Post by Sairina » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:04 pm

Races without cities is the real dilemma, since they seem to lack a history or culture (mainly half-elves, tshaharks since I think halflings belong to Elvandar, atleast historically allied with the elves, and the dwarves *do* have an outpost, even if it is not a real town, and the dark-elves are kind of outcasts of society anyway).
I think that most half-elves will be born in Elvandar, and some in Arborea - so they have either the human or elven culture.
Tshaharks don't have any real culture of their own for obvious reasons.
Darkelves are not a people as such, and therefore don't have any real culture either.
Dwarves *do* have a real town, even if it is not really a center of roleplay, sadly enough.
What I miss is a halfling village or something, as they definitely don't belong to Elvandar in my opinion (even if there is a thriving halfling population there as well).

Thinking about the stuff sold, this reminds me that I wanted to ask why the Elvandar tailor doesn't sell or buy any clothes as the Arborean tailor does? I can't see why they shouldn't. I guess this would leave less clothes lying in the streets.

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#9 Post by Delmon » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:04 pm

Has anyone else noticed that nearly every new Asral worshipper is an elf? I only know 1 human who is an Asral Cleric.
I can name two active human clerics... that doesn't seem out of porportion to me.

The reasons there may be NEWBIE Asral followers that are elves:
1. They are friends with another Asral follower.

2. If you are a newbie, and decide, with your asome newbie skills, to go around butchering and skinning nibblers and gremlins because you think it is funny, who will punish you? Of course, it will probably be the Crusaders. Who are the crusaders tied to? Taniel. Well, would you pick taniel, or Asral, whos followers are kind and nice, and haven't lectured or punished, or banned, or fined you.

Might sound like bad rp on the part of the newbie. I think it's logical.


Edit:
1.
Also, it is very possible to rp a guildless character in Geas. I dislike it when a char joins a guild simply because he or she NEEDS to be in a guild. If guildless chars became a bit more influential in cities Geas would be a better world. If you have 2 or 3 friends you rp with regularly... guess what you are probably as strong in numbers as most of the guilds.
I agree, but is there even a problem with characters jumping into guilds?
I don't see guilds packed with newbies... or experienced players for that matter, nor do I see much guild recruitment.

2.
I would love if the cities offered more services, mainly the Underground and Elvandar, propably Asador too.
Well, I don't think that's possible.
It makes no sense to have every specialty shop, guild,
or other feature available in every major city. If this argument would be
valid and we would add such a shop to Arborea, we would have to add one to the Underground, add scribes to every city, add alchemists to every city,
add the same shops to every city, add all the crafts guilds to every city,
and so on. This would make those cities generic, bland, and it would make
being outlawed from one city completely irrelevant and merely a minor
inconvenience. This is completely unwanted by us wizards.

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#10 Post by gojin » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:15 pm

2. If you are a newbie, and decide, with your asome newbie skills, to go around butchering and skinning nibblers and gremlins because you think it is funny, who will punish you? Of course, it will probably be the Crusaders. Who are the crusaders tied to? Taniel. Well, would you pick taniel, or Asral, whos followers are kind and nice, and haven't lectured or punished, or banned, or fined you.

Might sound like bad rp on the part of the newbie. I think it's logical.
This is one of the things I meant to address with the original post. Id like to strongly encourage those who play elf chars not to give up on elvandar. It would be nice to eventually build it up to what its supposed to be. That being the city of elves. Where elves do elfy things with other elves, etc. I know you have to put up with some stuff to do it but in the long run I think it would be best for the game.
I agree, but is there even a problem with characters jumping into guilds? I don't see guilds packed with newbies... or experienced players for that matter, nor do I see much guild recruitment.
I think I mispoke originally. I have no problem with people joining guilds... thats what guilds are for. Its the idea of someone thinking "Well... im banned from this city and its guilds so the only place i can really play is this place, what guilds do they offer? Hmmm, doesnt exactly make sense for my char but since its the only guild i have access to I guess Ill join." Im not saying that this happens or that anyone has done this. Im just worried that the current climate makes this....
logical

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#11 Post by Delmon » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:36 pm

Id like to strongly encourage those who play elf chars not to give up on elvandar. It would be nice to eventually build it up to what its supposed to be. That being the city of elves. Where elves do elfy things with other elves, etc. I know you have to put up with some stuff to do it but in the long run I think it would be best for the game.
That's a good idea, and,
What would your advice be for those elf characters with ties to Arborea, and/ or Asral?
That being the city of elves. Where elves do elfy things with other elves, etc.
*ponders the situation*
What makes an elf elfy or what does an elf do differently then any other race?

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#12 Post by Sairina » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:35 am

Well, I don't think that's possible.
Quote:
It makes no sense to have every specialty shop, guild,
or other feature available in every major city. If this argument would be
valid and we would add such a shop to Arborea, we would have to add one to the Underground, add scribes to every city, add alchemists to every city,
add the same shops to every city, add all the crafts guilds to every city,
and so on. This would make those cities generic, bland, and it would make
being outlawed from one city completely irrelevant and merely a minor
inconvenience. This is completely unwanted by us wizards.
There don't have to be the same guilds in every city, much less shops selling all the same stuff - quite the opposite, make the cities even more different, let them sell different weapons, clothes or armour, let the shopkeepers maybe favour or disfavour a certain race.
I think I mispoke originally. I have no problem with people joining guilds... thats what guilds are for. Its the idea of someone thinking "Well... im banned from this city and its guilds so the only place i can really play is this place, what guilds do they offer? Hmmm, doesnt exactly make sense for my char but since its the only guild i have access to I guess Ill join." Im not saying that this happens or that anyone has done this. Im just worried that the current climate makes this....
Quote:
logical
The problem is that it makes sense for a lot of elven chars to join the skalds - after all, music is quite an "elfy" thing...

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#13 Post by Delia » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:22 am

Tshaharks don't have any real culture of their own for obvious reasons.
There have been talks about a tshahark castle atleast, and its mentioned in the history I think. Has the wiz responsible for this left or is the castle a part of a bigger project I do not know, I just hope we see it someday. :)
What I miss is a halfling village or something, as they definitely don't belong to Elvandar in...
The halflings always talk about their mystery land, which anyone does not know of at all. Maybe its on the to-do list? If not, one could always assume they are a "dying" race, most of their culture wiped out in the insect wars or something. *shrug*
What makes an elf elfy or what does an elf do differently then any other race?
Hard to say, for starters, spend time with their own kind and not drinking booze with dwarves or something. One could start from that. I'd love to see humans finally take over their own city, even if it would mean making things difficult for some others. :)
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#14 Post by Alamar » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:21 am

Don't tshaharks have their own castle? I think it's called the Crusader Castle. :P

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#15 Post by Delmon » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:51 pm

I'd love to see humans finally take over their own city, even if it would mean making things difficult for some others
I have to disagree...

All hail elven warlords :D

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#16 Post by gojin » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:07 pm

That's a good idea, and,
What would your advice be for those elf characters with ties to Arborea, and/ or Asral?


Im not saying that all elves should ONLY have ties to Elvandar. Im saying itd be nice if the majority did as it is the elven city. Also I dont think what god you worship should make a difference in which city you have ties to. Obviously there are circumstances and exceptions but Elvandar is the city of Elves not of Taniel. Just like Arborea is the city of Humans not of Asral. But the most important thing is to roleplay as you like. If you roleplayed exactly as I wanted you to you would be little better than an NPC and much less fun.

Seriously, it would be nice if Cities(races) played more of a role in politics than guilds or at least more of a role than gods. For example I imagine a Taniel Judge of Elvandar with a elf 'captain of the guard' who is an Asral follower(maybe even a cleric) and who leads both npc guards but also a group of PCs from different guilds and non-guild chars in the name of Elvandar. Would add much more depth to game than the usual Taniel vs Satho or Taniel Vs Asral. Just my opinion.

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#17 Post by Delmon » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:46 pm

Yeah!

I think it would be asome if the judges had personal "army" , say like four well skilled guards. The game depth would be expanded expodentially
Would add much more depth to game than the usual Taniel vs Satho or Taniel Vs Asral. Just my opinion.
My opinion too!

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#18 Post by anglachel » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:53 am

There many problems with personal 'armies'.
As example:
The judge decide to clean up the 'death valley' with his/her/its army and archives so are very rare weapon or armour.
This would be ic correct: The judge eliminates a threat for the public.
But ooc it would be a abuse of the guards.

To rie teh race more to there 'homecites' the implementaion of raceguilds .could be a solution. These 'raceguilds' must interesting for player on one side, but on the other side there should not to give much advantges to a race.

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#19 Post by gojin » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:31 am

I think it would be asome if the judges had personal "army" , say like four well skilled guards. The game depth would be expanded expodentially
What i meant was that npc guards would assist/join team in city(like they do or use to do with Taniel Clerics in Elvandar). I agree that personall armies would be far too easy to abuse.

What would be some ideas for Racial Guilds?

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#20 Post by Abharsair » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:53 am

Having a greater diversity among the major cities would surely add some flavor to the game, but currently it is limited by certain factors.

One, as long as there aren't more racial cities other than the current three, it is hard to increase the influence of the native races there. If the tshaharks and halflings would then complain about their lack of racial homes, it would be in my opinion a justified complaint. And everyone who ever coded in a non-stock mud with the quality standards we have will understand how much work it is to create a fully functional city with an all-original description.

Two, making certain shops, guilds, wares, features, etc., only available in one city would admittedly improve that city's uniqueness, but it would also prompt some players to complain about the lack of accessibility to those things. The discussion about the custom armor/weapon shop in the OOC area is a good example for that. One's joy about the increased diversity is another's pain due to not being able to get certain things.

Three, players are happy to find someone to play with, and then the race often doesn't have any significance. It is one thing to be a fanatic elven racist who thinks every non-elf is inferior if there are 200 players online at any given time. It's a completely different matter if there are only 20 players online.

I'd also like to add (since someone mentioned it earlier) that the two cities which have judge positions openly favor certain races and guilds. Elven votes have more weight in Elvandar than the votes of other races. Same with humans in Arborea. However, this racial preference doesn't work if there's a lack of candidates who aren't hated by the public, or if one of the candidates runs his/her campaign skillfully, while the others are indifferent and do nothing to boost their chances.

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