Shao-Lin

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lanyara
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Re: Shao-Lin

#61 Post by lanyara » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:20 pm

Right now the game is extremely closely tied to the religious system.

Some guilds give unique abilities to a character, and these usually involve religion. Crusaders can do some fancy things, clerics can tap into miracles. If you leave these guilds, you lose access to those fancy effects. (ritual, rhetoric and beseech deity skill will also inevitably decay if your char is no longer a cleric but you can't use them anyway)

If you leave shaolins or other "worldly" skill-based guilds then you get to keep these skills at least, and can usually use them as well. I guess that is one reason why chars normally would only go from shaolin to other guilds (or thieves to other guilds, at least back then)

Another reason is that certain guilds are really more interesting than others.

Chi-punishment would be a nice idea. Actually any extension to the chi concept would be nice.

The justification for giving shaolins a slight "efficiency" boost can easily explained by stating that a "group of like minded people" make certain things more efficient (chi).

The example of @Ganandorf would also work BUT:
- it won't make shaolins more interesting (and if you are bored, you won't really play a character anyway ...)
- some might still not care at all because they don't care too much about these skills anyway.

Guilds should IMO try to recruit actively (all guilds), and a part of this recruitment or advertising involves "being interesting". Otherwise the active players just get to be in different guilds. In the long run I think the easiest solution would be to make some guilds more interesting. That's why I thought about the chi concept... shaolins summoning astral beings would be pretty cool.
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krelji
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Re: Shao-Lin

#62 Post by krelji » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:42 pm

I don't think the main problem is that you retain skills after leaving a guild.

The following quote is taken from the helpfile regarding guilds:
You may gain the emnity of your former guildmates by leaving a guild, and may have trouble being trusted and accepted by another guild for your former associations and your fickleness. Think about this before joining or leaving a guild.
IMO it should be a lot more difficult to join another guild if you left one, and not as
easy as it currently appears to be. Naturally it's something the leaders of guilds have
to take care about, but it's being ignored more often than not.
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It is the nature of religions to thrive on ignorance.

per
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Re: Shao-Lin

#63 Post by per » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:53 pm

I wouldn't be in favour of locking already-earned skills, but players should excert self-control and police themselves regarding guild-hopping. However, I would consider blocking improvement onto the next-level of guild skills.

Being in the shaolin means you are in a community-based continuous training regimen, with people to train alongside with and under. Achieving the next level of a skill should be very hard without that institutional support. One could even extend this to relearning to use a second stage skill if it decays.

Not sure if this would do much, it's likely accomodated by nature of the skill system somewhat. Just some thoughts.

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Delia
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Re: Shao-Lin

#64 Post by Delia » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:21 pm

I am not THAT concerned about people knowing basic martial arts that is the nine basic moves. Martial arts being its own skill group makes it a bit harder to develop anything else should you wish to be a good in them or anything else.

Also the basic moves aren't that spectacular so knowing something about sidekicks and stuff does not necessarily make you want to master them given how good elbow/slam/knee specials are even for lightly armoured fighters. However there are definite differences in quality and efficiency between the different basic shao moves. Tackle for instance is simply a must have for everyone with a mind for competition and it is a simple move which still leaves room to perform a knee special. The next obvious move is shock hit which develops into shockpoke(and remove). As for the third I'd put somersault which has some good applications depending on the enemy. All the other are just for show even if they do have their uses which might not always be readily apparent.

As for the advanced shao specials I have not seen anyone outside the shaos use them, save for some single rogue monk(s) and that is quite rare. I figure they are not learnable via watching. The efficiency rates for using the advanced moves is not that great compared to(again)a good elbow/knee/slam. They are good but in one on one the fighter specials perform better. In my experience shao specials benefit greatly from good teams as some skills simply work well in tandem.

IMO one of the main reasons for shao guild hopping and the gathering of shao skills is simple. There are quite plenty of them and hence, a good source for exp to stats(no shaolin has trouble raising their AGI). A solid fighter can go for shao skills and still excel in primary fighter skills, just with a nice boost to stats.
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Re: Shao-Lin

#65 Post by krelji » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:26 pm

Delia wrote:As for the advanced shao specials I have not seen anyone outside the shaos use them,
My char learned at least ONE advanced shao special from watching Yegerfin
sparring. He also learned several basic moves this way, but my char isn't good
enough yet to know how many of the advanced moves he learned this way.
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Re: Shao-Lin

#66 Post by ganandorf » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:36 pm

Delia wrote:I once thought of somekind of punishment ritual where the ex-shao would be captured and then the ritual would be performed in the certain shao special place where, for example the flow of "chi"/"balance"/whatever would be disrupted so that the person affected by this penalty would suffer considerable penalties to all shao things for a good time.

While not as effective as cleanly cutting off access by code when you quit, it would atleast be more sensible, smoother and IC way of doing things. Of course it does not help if the ex-shaolin joins, let us say, the crusade and the shao masters do not have the nerve to anger them(which is true more often than not) should peaceful negotiations fail.
This would only work about half the time. From what i've seen most ex-shaos seem to have either joined the sathos or the crusade. Shaos are already enemies somewhat with us sathos so if you take one of the betrayers that joined us wouldn't make much of a difference. Crusaders on the other hand...That might be a bit trickier
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luminier
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Re: Shao-Lin

#67 Post by luminier » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:23 pm

As a guild leader I think I can speak for some of the leaders as to why we might seem lenient. To be honest, i think it's better to fulfill a players wishes and help them try to achieve what they want in a character and if that happens to be joining a guild (in my case the Crusaders) well then I figure Ill help them in that. Abha actually introduced a new Crusader policy a while back to me about how low ranking Crusaders (Squires) are a type of test period rank where they are "in the guild" but "not in the guild". It could be thought of as being a probationary period where if you get kicked out because you are not Crusader-worthy, then you aren't hunted, but if you advanced to a higher rank you are an enemy for life.

It's nice to have more people in guilds in my opinion. It seems to me that having more people in guilds increases the games dynamic and then makes it more fun. Maybe it is too easy to join a guild, but, I've thought about it and I like the way the Crusaders are currently doing it. Besides it seems like most people will bend over backwards and do a flip to please Luminier ;) , so rarely do people get kicked out.
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lanyara
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Re: Shao-Lin

#68 Post by lanyara » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:45 am

a new Crusader policy a while back to me about how low ranking Crusaders (Squires) are a type of test period rank where they are "in the guild" but "not in the guild".
I think that was usually the case with most guilds, as in it being a "probation time". Today it seems more common to prefer having strong characters rather than "every" char, and I guess this is also understandable partially. Though, I think raising a threshold for joining a guild is not really good - if someone does not like a guild he/she'd not be really active anyway. And sometimes it can be hard to find someone who could accept you in a guild as well.

What I also don't understand is ... almost no guild seems to advertize in the slightest. It is as if you can only go and join a guild if your character has made up his mind already, as if they don't want new characters in the guild.
It seems to me that having more people in guilds increases the games dynamic and then makes it more fun.
Agreed. Unfortunately with most guilds it seems that strong characters are somehow more "worth" than non-strong characters. This has always been the case with guilds like the Sathonys clerics (one can see what @Jezz wrote long ago about being "allowed to do something only if you have a strong character" and it being harder to join the evil side due to them being slightly stronger but slightly fewer in numbers as well), nowadays it just seems to be valid for most guilds though, or at least it seems to be a more common notion.

I guess if you can pick between a strong char and a weak char you will simply pick the strong char no matter if a "weak" char fits nicely or is interesting in some way. I really think this is not good, it forces a lot of characters to "train up to be the strongest alive", and in a way then excludes the weaker characters.

There just don't seem to be any "real" guilds (with a guild orb) for newbies or young characters.
Maybe it is too easy to join a guild, but, I've thought about it and I like the way the Crusaders are currently doing it.
IMHO easy accessibility to/into guilds beats the long waiting time easily both due to IC and OOC reasons. People just get bored if they are left alone or have nothing to do, or hardly a way/leverage to interact. Real newbies or new players have it significantly harder though.
Last edited by lanyara on Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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krelji
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Re: Shao-Lin

#69 Post by krelji » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:46 am

luminier wrote:As a guild leader I think I can speak for some of the leaders as to why we might seem lenient. To be honest, i think it's better to fulfill a players wishes and help them try to achieve what they want in a character and if that happens to be joining a guild (in my case the Crusaders) well then I figure Ill help them in that.
It would certainly help if leaders would be less lenient. I don't think it's necessary to
make it impossible for those leaving a guild to join another one, but increasing the
time before they can do so would be a good idea IMO. If there's a probation period
in the Crusaders, it's all the better, but not all guilds have those.
It's just odd to see that it's currently more difficult to switch between layman guilds,
than it is to switch between occupational guilds. I'm aware that it's annoying for the
player of the char who wishes to switch, but that's a price you have to pay if you
don't know what you want, or want to do some skill harvesting.
All knowledge is heresy. Yes, you heard me correctly.
It is the nature of religions to thrive on ignorance.

lanyara
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Re: Shao-Lin

#70 Post by lanyara » Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:46 am

If there's a probation period in the Crusaders, it's all the better, but not all guilds have those.
Hmm. I really think that all guilds used to have this probation time a long time ago. As in, being a "pilgrim" or someone new was meant to be "on probation" already. Nowadays it more seems as if (usually) guilds wait a long time before someone is eligible to join a guild. (And then may have a long and tedious way to climb inner ranks anyway)

Of course this depends on the players involved as well.
It's just odd to see that it's currently more difficult to switch between layman guilds, than it is to switch between occupational guilds.
Don't the layman guilds have this "you may never rejoin" policy? There also are only ... 3 layman guilds I think, and about ... hmm, not sure, 8 or some such major guilds. One layman guild is basically free for everyone without players being able to control who joins or leaves (skalds), the other two are a bit more "important" especially with the scribes being pretty close to a major guild. (Books and magic is a pretty big thing!)

So there is not that much choice for them, and once having left you can't rejoin, so I guess it is not surprising that not many want to consider switching layman guilds. The usual route would probably be to join the weakest guild here (skalds) train up then switch to another layman guild (but then again other players could deny that switch, which can be risky as well). I don't know of many scribes who'd join the skalds ... :D

I'd also like to think that the scribes today are quite a bit different from the scribes... perhaps 5 years ago (but I never had a scribe char so I am biased)
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krelji
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Re: Shao-Lin

#71 Post by krelji » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:11 pm

lanyara wrote:Don't the layman guilds have this "you may never rejoin" policy?
The only layman guild that you cannot rejoin generally would be the skalds. You can
rejoin all other layman guilds to my knowledge. It's unfortunate that it's sometimes
rather difficult to join layman guilds, but accepting members requires time higher
ranked members might not have.
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Re: Shao-Lin

#72 Post by ganandorf » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:29 pm

I think the problem is with players who are so quick to join a new guild when they leave their old one. For example, i recieved mail once from someone who wished to follow sathonys, it was a time when i wasn't checking my mail often, I log on about a week and a half maybe two weeks later, and find out they've already joined the taniel clergy.

Seems like pretty inconsistent roleplay.
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Re: Shao-Lin

#73 Post by lanyara » Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:15 pm

Yes, from an IC point of view totally agreed here.
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Delia
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Re: Shao-Lin

#74 Post by Delia » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:44 am

Fernao wrote:
And considering that the supposedly neutral shao-lin, or those former shao-lin that still use the respective guild moves, can still kill undeads faster than ANY other guild, including crusaders and taniels I see no real reason for complaints.
I'd say the shaos are neutral with a tendency towards good. That is to say not 'I don't care about anything that happens'-neutral or 'I'll do everything to preserve the equilibrium'-neutral. There is a way of living for them that focuses on living a good life and being honourable(more or less) and responsible for one's actions to put it VERY short. Focus is more on mortal issues(most of which focus on the self) than the struggles of the divine. Social structures are seen to be preserved rather than letting them be destroyed by rampaging insects, goblinoids, undeads and whatnots BTW,the shaos really dislike the undead, guild powers and all but that fact alone does not make them champions of good. The reason for destroying them is more of a philosophical nature. This in turn would make them natural allies with the crusaders and taniels but the reality is not that comfortable. Given the standard fare of shao-lin views and beliefs(which there are some)it is just as easy to become frowned upon as a shao by the said groups as asked to hunt some dead guys. Actually, the fact that the great and esteemed shao masters are so good at kicking undead butt usually makes all possible personal confict magically disappear when undead giants need to be taken down. Guess that is how it goes.
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Re: Shao-Lin

#75 Post by glorfindel » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:37 am

Delia wrote: Actually, the fact that the great and esteemed shao masters are so good at kicking undead butt usually makes all possible personal confict magically disappear when undead giants need to be taken down. Guess that is how it goes.
To be honest, I have been astonished a few times that 'I'll help you destroy the undead, but I'll not involve in your other conflicts', has not generated more outcry by the so called 'goodies' of geas. For Glorfindel at least it suits itselfs fine, he acomplishes his goals and that's it for him.

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Re: Shao-Lin

#76 Post by glorfindel » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:12 am

Having read through all that was written here a while ago, I think it might be a good idea to post how I myself see being Shao-Lin (in addition to what Delia wrote).

1. A shaolin is mostly centered on reaching balance/enlightenment. His/Her main
means of this is some mixture of meditation, excerise, martial arts, you name it.
2. A shaolin is not at first hand concerned with religious conflicts. Being shaolin and
training with your brethren/masters will likely make you realize that both sides of the
eternal conflict must always exist.
3. As such, Shaolin might occasionally be found in the first line of a defence, as they
believe that preserving certain laws and structure is a must. (lawful-neutral)
4. Shaolin's hate for undead has been explained a few times over, but it needs to be in
a list.
5. As a Shaolins focus lies with the path that he/she walks on they will not often
choose to involve themselves in struggles unless they are asked for their wisdom /
aid. On this it might not even matter who is asking, as long as the Shaolin believes
that it'll aid their believes to help.
6. Shaolin often believe that certain actions will only keep 'the wheel spinning' and
might choose to not involve to the annoyance of their possible allies.
7. The main reason a shaolin chooses to defend the good is most of the time that
he/she believes that the good/light side is the weaker side and needs the aid.
Personally, if there would be a crusader with the medieveal nuke to wipe out all
evil, I see Shaolin being his enemies.

There is more, yet I strain from explaining all of it, as most of the things should be
discovered IC, but it is some aspects I think should be mentioned.

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