Shao-Lin

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Delia
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Re: Shao-Lin

#21 Post by Delia » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:34 am

Making deals and treaties is the way I've seen it also, only if it were that simple ;) Hopefully making progress though but the usual setback waiting to happen is the everlooming shadow over your good intentions...
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Re: Shao-Lin

#22 Post by gojin » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:27 pm

The situation the shao find themselves in is one ive often lamented as I have a sentimental attachment to them still. It is in my opinion the guild with the best rp potential and has always received excellent guildwiz support. Unfortunately, it is too often treated by players as a starter/training guild.

Its my opinion, which I fully expect to be ill-received, that the solution starts with shao masters being more selective when bringing new members into the guild and more proactive with booting players when it becomes apparent they are there for a short term ride. I understand how this is hard, when trying to revive a semi-dying guild you figure any new member is a good one but the emphasis must be put on 'quality' else the shao will continue to be used as a place to 'build up' your char before joining the guild you intend to play.

To sum it up:

1)Dont make it so easy to join the shao(no 2 day old newbies, if the prospective member decides to go somewhere else because he had to wait to become a shao... good riddence, he/she probably wasnt going to stay around long anyways).

2)Hold members to a higher standard(its fairly easy for me to see who intends to play a shao and who is there to learn shao skills before they move on... Im far from the most intelligent person on these forums so I assume its just as easy for everyone else).
Last edited by gojin on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tessa
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Re: Shao-Lin

#23 Post by tessa » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:46 pm

Actually, to put it shortly, I agree wholeheartedly.

It may also be worth reinforcing punishments or demotions to members that cause problems or don't follow rules. Lectures and scoldings don't often work.

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Re: Shao-Lin

#24 Post by Olrane » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:51 am

Yep. The Shaolin would be rid of most of their troubles if they weren't so recruitment happy in the past. It's perfectly understandable why they would want to recruit more members - more people is more fun, right? Time and time again, it's proven to be a Faustian bargain.

As the Shaolin for most intents and purposes is a roleplay guild and not a PvP guild (actively shunning most PvP), aggressive recruitment backfires. They don't get any PvP advantage from higher numbers, so selectivity is the way to go.

And yes. By these standards Olrane should never have been accepted, as he showed more than a few signs of bad discipline and rebelliousness.

I love the Shaolin and give mad props to the good players of them. Keep it up, I feel it's a very necessary if tough role to play in this world.

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Re: Shao-Lin

#25 Post by sun » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:42 am

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

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Re: Shao-Lin

#26 Post by gojin » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:08 am

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?
No, I see problems with it. Was actually expecting a bit more opposition.. but why dont you voice some of the problems you foresee?

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Re: Shao-Lin

#27 Post by Delia » Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:02 am

As the Shaolin for most intents and purposes is a roleplay guild and not a PvP guild (actively shunning most PvP), aggressive recruitment backfires. They don't get any PvP advantage from higher numbers, so selectivity is the way to go.
I don't see the shao-lin actively shunning PvP, infact a shao team can be quite efficient and they can contribute to fight pretty nicely in tandem with the regular fighters. It just usually is that a lone monk is a dead/fleeing monk. But back to topic, there are many PvP opportunities for the Shaos but the main thing I try to discourage IC is avoiding 'needless' PvP. Compared to other guilds in the game the shaos are in a bit different situation. Last thing they need are endless rows of monks all harbouring their private vendettas against(usually) Taniels and Crusaders, I've seen quite few of those. If you cannot submit to the rule of your superiors in the end, boot to the head.
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tessa
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Re: Shao-Lin

#28 Post by tessa » Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:12 am

(Meanwhile, Tessa still plots and schemes against the blasted Asralites, unchecked)

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Re: Shao-Lin

#29 Post by sun » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:03 am

If you start to being ultra-selective the only thing that will happen is that a bunch of people will quit. You might say that they sucked anyway, but the point is they did not have to suck and leave. For example, I got something like "you have to wait 5 months" or so in the past and that is not gonna build a playerbase or a guild. Guilds are a big part of the game, so shutting people out them is shutting them out from the game and most will just quit. I think that is simply not an option to have people dropping out, especially not new people.

I think a gradual introduction is the way to go. Most people will be almost completely satisified to be the lowest rank of a guild even with very limited possibilities. In the case of the Shao-Lin, I think you should ask some kind guild wiz to make those belts mean something as in what parts of the temple you can go to, what skills you may learn, what armours you can wear, etc. You will get control and they will understand that they have a long way to go, yet they will feel content.

Of course, if someone's RP is not good enough, or if they fail to understand what the mentors says, it's hard to solve the problem. But as a guild leader I think you should give people and chance and keeping them short as you like. However, don't give them complete uncertainty or the you must wait 150 days. Let them know that you are interested in new members (most guilds should be) and give them as much as you trust them to.

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Re: Shao-Lin

#30 Post by ganandorf » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:00 pm

Scheming against asralites is bad
Meow

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Re: Shao-Lin

#31 Post by Delia » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:35 am

In the case of the Shao-Lin, I think you should ask some kind guild wiz to make those belts mean something as in what parts of the temple you can go to, what skills you may learn, what armours you can wear, etc. You will get control and they will understand that they have a long way to go, yet they will feel content.
As for equipment, there simply aren't any that can be prohibited by belts as the shaos really do not offer eq apart from the sandals, robe, hat, staff and belt. If any skills were to be prohibited it would/should affect all the non-shaos as well. Perhaps making the advanced moves non-learnable until a certain rank is attained might work. I atleast understand that they are not learnable by watching, atleast I have never seen a non-shao(some who have considerable skill in basic arts enough to learn the advanced ones)perform them nor heard about it. As for blocking guild areas there is very little to block, actually. Unless you wish to block entrance to shop or boards which seems somewhat counterproductive. Masters have their own area where only they can go though. I've had some few things to ask to be added to the temple though, mostly eq related. Needs some thought still though. Martial arts lore is rife with all kinds of little cool stuff that could be added. The question is how much the temple should offer material-wise considering the multitude of skills already offered. It atleast feels that the very limited eq selection is to balance out the skills offered when compared to other guilds. Then again I would be happy to see all the guilds in general offering a multitude of goods to choose from and not the basic uniform all the members seem to wear and use.

When it comes to handing out discipline it can be rather hard to accomplish. Usually when someone has messed out enough he/she becomes quite hard to find...then again this is a question of not enough people capable of disciplinary actions.

As for screening potential monks I usually try to have few long talks and a period of waiting and observing, asking around how that person has behaved and acted, who he keeps company with and checking boards and courts of law for potential give aways for non-compatibility. No matter what you do it is not necessarily enough. Then again I do not personally like to have people waiting forever. Given how often I play and have chances of meeting these people it is usually roughly a month, sometimes less, sometimes more.
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Re: Shao-Lin

#32 Post by Delia » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:53 am

One of the harder things I often think about the shaos is how they should deal with religion? Personally I see them as viewing the gods more as active philosophical representation of ideas and ideals rather than the regular strict parent-like deity. The temple really cannot afford to promote one religion over the another(save banning dark god worship)as it would basically put them in the danger of becoming goons for some clergy. Well, the temple already leans towards Taniel and Evren in the basic outset though. Zhakrin too of course but if the manipulation/conflict thingy is the basic Zhakrin canon people follow it really cannot hold true for the shaos. For them it would be more being in support of Lilith and chaos in general which I see the shaos abhorring along with the forces of unlife.

On an axis of Chaos - Order the shaos are somewhere in the middle leaning towards order.

On an axis of Evil - Good the shaos are closer to good than the middle.

Given how shaos must deal with the variety of gods and in the end not revere one above the other the shao definition of good more or less lays in the realm of mortals rather than in some divine idealogy of gods. Being responsible for oneself and each other. Change yourself for the better -> change the world little by little.

Still the god question is something that will occupy me as long as I play Delia. Hopefully a divine inspiration hits me someday. I've been delving into buddhist/eastern lore in general and slowly tried to integrate it to the shaos. Some thoughts need some major adjusting though but given how Elvandar has slight eastern influence as well and how the original founders were elves AND the fact that most shaos tend to be elves(NPC's and PC's) there might be something there.

Anyways now I'm losing my train of thought. But a master Shaos have quite more things going for them in the way of gaining glimpses to the heart and soul of the guild. Too bad the process of becoming a black belt seems quite hard for people and it might not be even that lucrative to realize your dreams being sitting in thought on a high mountaintop 8)

end of incoherence for now
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Re: Shao-Lin

#33 Post by tessa » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:59 am

What might be nice to think about the Shaos is whether or not they have any worldly purpose/influence. I mean, we know the personal goal of Shaos, training their mind/body/spirit and obtaining balance and all that, but what about things they do for others?

I've always felt the most successful guilds are the ones that have some sort of influence or impact on the rest of the world. The "let's keep to ourselves" guilds always seem to be the underdogs.

I've tried to think of something for the Shaolin other than "let's kill goblinoids with our skills until we become masters, then vote on stuff and drink tea". I've kind of pictured them perhaps as defender sorts, or mediators. Helping those with troubles, or trying to find a peaceful conclusion to conflicts. In other words, like your good samaritans. I don't picture them as the types to start fights, but rather to end them, preferably without lethal force (*doesn't try to explain all the dead goblinoids*). Or the types to take sides in struggles, but rather try to find common ground. I consider them a lawful guild, and leaning towards good. Not fanatical good, but good like... well, your average person, I guess. Maybe they could be the sorts that many could look towards for support, or maybe for middle people in negotiations or deals or such, instead of "those pointless fence-sitters".

It'd also be nice if the shao origin book could be made eligible to read, or maybe be expanded on a bit (something I'd be happy to help with). And it'd be nice to know more about the globe, too- it seems most everyone forgets the larger part of the story behind it (unless I've just been unlucky/misinformed).

Long story short: end of incoherence x2

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Re: Shao-Lin

#34 Post by Delia » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:20 am

About mediation of conflicts...infact that is what Delia tries to do most of the times. But in a world where the conflicts are usually religious-related the two sides are usually equally bull-headed about their view of things and won't be happy until there are enough corpses to fertilize all of Forostar. But still, one must try.
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Re: Shao-Lin

#35 Post by stilgar » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:43 am

I don't see the problem here. Make shaolin specials shaolin exclusive, there goes the punishment. Investing a lot of time into later unavaible skills and abilities is a sufficient punishment for a certain char, IMO :wink:

Shaolin philosophy is introspective. Why would they hunt or try to otherwise punish someone who simply could not live by their ideals? No need to..

About their place in the world... as long as they are forced into situations they simply cannot solve, they won't have their place. The moment they have enough power to fulfill their duties they'll have a place in the world and will be worth to involve them into politics.

Their guild can be raided by anyone (happened in the past sometimes their orb was taken as an "extra" lineitem), as they could not even defend or retaliate in any useful ways.

Solution?

Resolve this.. make those shaolin specials really hurt in PvP combat and what will you see? Shaolin guild will be considered as player on the global conflict scene.. so easy.... :wink:

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Re: Shao-Lin

#36 Post by Grindel » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:49 am

Making guild-related skills unavailable after leaving sounds like a good solution, and there is a quite nice way to "explain" it IC, as once could argue, that someone needs the guild and its facilities to train and keep a skill.

So just treat guild-skills like skills that are not used, so they fall quickly and become useless.

Apart from that, it might be good to add more things to the guilds that require the guild's facilities, like it is with the scribes, who cannot work outside anyway.

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Re: Shao-Lin

#37 Post by Delia » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:52 am

Making guild-related skills unavailable after leaving sounds like a good solution, and there is a quite nice way to "explain" it IC, as once could argue, that someone needs the guild and its facilities to train and keep a skill.
I can't see how that makes any sense IC. How does it differ to make a martial arts move in a dojo or in a forest if you already are proficient in it?
Apart from that, it might be good to add more things to the guilds that require the guild's facilities, like it is with the scribes, who cannot work outside anyway.
Not true and it is slightly irking that one needs to be in a room with a bookshelf to write...

Learning the shao-skills while not in guild seems quite harder already. As they are no longer learnable from books and learn by watching seems to be harder as well. And hopefully the advanced moves are not learn by watching also. I am quite divided should the learn by watching removed altogether. It should just be increndibly hard.
Last edited by Delia on Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shao-Lin

#38 Post by Grindel » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:00 am

I can't see how that makes any sense IC. How does it differ to make a martial arts move in a dojo or in a forest if you already are proficient in it?
Stop going to the gym and you'll see how much you change... haha. No really: a shaolin monk who left will not keep up to physical and mental training like the rest. Without master, without fellow monks to train or meditate with, etc. the skills will suffer.
Not true
Than add even more! If guilds are made just for acquiring skills, not for keeping them, than it no wonder that folks take the skills and go. No one can be blamed for it then.

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Re: Shao-Lin

#39 Post by Delia » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:08 am

I personally like the realism of it all and would mourn if it all disappeared. If you learn something you do not magically forget it. Makes sense. I'd rather have the internal logic of the game make sense and players be responsible than have any nonsense around.

The system how Geas works was one of the things that attracted me to the game in the first place and kept me here. Would be a shame to lose it.
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Re: Shao-Lin

#40 Post by tessa » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:27 am

I personally like how the system works right now, where you don't have 'class-only skills'. I've hated systems like that. I was quite sad when learn-books were nerfed, but it's understandable considering how many private skills became common knowledge due to people passing the information around to any and all friends.

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