Shao-Lin

[Delia]

I have some humble ideas for the guild IC, which I'll slowly try to realize, but in the meantime, I'm interested in hearing how people see the Shao-Lin, and what do you think they should be like?

Fire at will.

[gojin]

some ic history:

The ic history of the shao is that they were created by two elves who basically followed a Zhakrin type of philosophy. Likewise historically they(meaning the guild not the individual) have been roleplayed as neutral. The goal of the guild being to promote balance. At first it was a completely secular guild and worshippers of all faiths were allowed. This proved to volatile a concept for players(i am at fault in some part for this) and eventually followers of 'evil' deities were forbidden. The common shao would basically have the goals of mastering unarmed combat and finding the balance within his soul, etc.. etc...


How I see the shao:

If I had to pick one char who best illustrates how I think a shao should be played it would be Iske. Quiet, wise, minds her own business but comes down from the temple from time to time to assist people in whatever way she sees fit and always giving out sagely advise. Never(well, rarely) losing her temper and etc.


How I would like the shao to be:

As a guild I would like the shao to be seen as neutral. Chars themselves could align with whomever they wish. I think this was more or less the original concept and we(shaos) have strayed from it. Neutral meaning being seen as neutral by other guilds. As I mentioned each char can choose his allies. Hopefully the other guilds would think the value of a shao ally would balance with the nuisance of a shao enemy and leave the guild alone. This concept can only be done with the help of other guilds, if the sathos dislike a 'good' shao they should not take it out on the entirety of the guild(as has happened in the past) and if the cruxies dislike a 'bad' shao they wouldnt take it out on the entirety of the guild(as could easily happen in the future).

This would make for some interesting play within the guild itself as you would have good and evil masters. It would also lessen the exodus of many shaos because they want to play 'evil' chars.


thats my opinion,

PO Goj

[tessa]

I don't think a good/evil approach with the guild would be very good. I think it would destroy the guild unity and cause too much strife not only within the guild, but in relations to others.

First off, I don't consider it very good RP, or particularly tasteful, to see an Evrenite or Tanielite working side by side with a Sathonite or Lilithian. At least not if they're supposed to be faithful to the gods, because technically, befriending a follower of your god's arch enemy would be considered a major sin, I think.

Also, I don't see a good/evil Shaolin guild being tolerated. I don't see good guilds wanting to support a guild that helps protect and house enemies they swear to their gods to destroy, and I don't see good guilds hesitating to kill the evil char, either. In the other hand, if a good shao pissed Sathos or Order members off, I don't see them hesitating to punish the said shao, and I doubt threatening to cut off shao support if they hurt a shao would really stop them, either.

In those cases, if a shao is killed, what should other shaos do? If they punish the murderer, chances are, they'll quickly isolate themselves from the rest of the world, and bring a lot of strife within the guild. I'll point out the situation of Zengo (crusader ally) and Aragog (satho ally) in the guild, which went as far as accusations of each of them betraying the other to their respected allies. It caused a ton of trouble in the guild, and ultimately, both of them were expelled, which ended up leaving the shaolin empty besides Delia and myself for a while. Not to mention, Tessa nearly quit due to Aragog's support of Sathonites (which clashed with her personal beliefs, she doesn't want to be in a guild that supports the kind of things Sathonys and Lilith enforce), which would sadly likely be a common situation when goodie/baddie shaos want to do something, and the opposite shaos disagree with it, and neither are willing to compromise.

If the shaos didn't take action and expected each shao to take care of themselves, then it destroys the point it being a guild, in my opinion. If you don't get support from your guildmates, and don't really associate with them, then the Shaolin is no longer a guild so much as just a training school that different people all happen to go to. And I think that would increase the odds of people joining, learning the moves, and then quitting, because who wants to be a part of a guild that has no community or benefit of being a member? Or a guild with people who support a god you loathe and might very well be an enemy of?

Maybe it would have worked a bit better in the older days of the mud, but in the current days, with the good/evil conflicts being stronger than ever, and there being more and more religiously fanatical characters, I just don't see such a guild as being successful or staying intact for very long.

[anglachel]

The Shao-Lin are planned as 'neutral till good' guild or in AD&D terms as 'lawful-neutral'. They are no guild that depends on worshiping a deity like a cleric guild, but they should have philosophical background with their own sight of the world. In this case that both sides are need in the world, the evil and good side and that no side should get the full control, but major part of the weight should be on the good side. And they are enemies of all kind of undeads, because these are big violation of the balance. The wheel of birth, death and rebirth.
There are designed a kind of warrior guild without heavy weapons and armours, but with a slight magical touch. (No war-mages!)
This is bit unexcat, but the guildmemebr can fill this frame the concret items and determine the development of guild and their position in the world.

[aragog]

The Shao-Lin. A lot of memories come up with that guild and I really must say, that it was on one hand a very nice time and on the other hand it wasn't. I guess one of the mayor problems was always, that there was no real definition or history for that guild all the time.

The most common order from the masters was always: don't get involved, stay out of other people's affairs, stay neutral.
In some ways that's right, yes, but actually it makes it quite boring to play a shaolin at all, if you're not allowed to participate in anything at all. And it made other players and other guilds always ignore (well, maybe too hard a word, but that's what happened) the shaolin, as they wouldn't take up action at all anyhow.

I won't get too deep into that Zengo-affair now as there was a lot more happening, but actually it was what should have happened even earlier. Zengo was a fanatic goodie and Aragog wasn't - sticking to her masters advise not to judge people from sight or hear-say.

I'd like to see the Shaolin real balancers, real neutral chars, taking up action where it is needed, no matter if it is the good side or the evil side, but that won't work with the current roleplay of most goodies. Right now it would only result in the destroyal of the guild and actually, that would be a shame. So what to do? It seems to me that they only have the chance to stay silent until the guild has been rebuild (not by code, but by players).

If the Druids wouldn't be more or less in the same situation like the shaos (having just one or two active players), I'd say that these guilds would be very likely to assist each other, since the druids care more about nature instead of people and their beliefs.

Hmm. Maybe someone else has some more and better ideas how to get the shaolin back into game. At least I hope so!

poAragog

[Vargrahim]

I think it is better to focus on the reason the guild exists. There must be something that the guild members can focus on, something that a member of the guild can do every day for a reason. Seldomly an organisation exists without a cause, and seldomly it would survive long without it. The Crusaders for example have such a goal (and a very concrete one). But guilds like Druids, Rangers and Shao-lin seem to be more a "style" guild which you can join if you want to play in a certain "style" (wearing certain armours, knowing certain skills) etc. I am not sure if the druids (or shao-lin) got some kind of guild goals set now, but last time I checked, I could not see anything concrete which couldn't be argued over for two hours.

Besides from that, I think monks living together in such kind of a temple would share most of their life philosophy, and worshipping Lilith on the one hand and another Taniel gets kind of.. well, what is the "shao-lin" part then? The skill training? That's shallow. Such a concept as a shao-lin must be a together-woven concept of culture, history, philosophy, life-view etc, and I think the members should share this. Well anyway, this is just one aspect of it.

I think there must be a goal for the guild which is firmly anchored in Geasian history. When that is settled, the culture around it would emerge naturally from itself.

[aragog]

I agree with you in this point and actually I think the Shaolin shouldn't worship different deities but that deity which is mostly fitting for that purpose. This would be Zhakrin as the neutral one.

[tessa]

I've always strongly disagreed with tying Shaolin to Zhakrin, and I still do. I don't think Shaolin should be religiously bound to anything, especially a god that's just as vague and undefined as the guild itself.

And from what I can tell with a majority of the Zhakrin followers in the game, Zhakrin's belief of balance heavily differs from the Shaolin's belief of balance, and they really shouldn't be confused with one another.

At least, I've always thought Shaolin seek enlightenment and wholeness of body, mind, and soul. And 9 of every 10 Zhakrinites I see, tend to be particularly manipulative, scheming, and world/power hungry. And usually almost always "down with tanielites, lets ally with sathos". Which personally seems to me to be more Lilithian attitude than Zhakrin. I always thought that Zhakrinites would be expected to be open-minded and accepting of all things, and probably not take drastic actions as they might disturb balance rather than maintain it, instead of trying to impose some belief of neutral nothingness on everyone else.

And either way you go (control the world or accept it as it is), I don't think it would fit Shaolin at all. I think imposing fanatic religion on others would destroy the concept behind them being Shaolin and not Zhakrin Clerics, and I think being passive would keep them in the same position they're in right now: without goal or direction, and all in all, rather meaningless.

So, I don't think religion with Zhakrin is the way to go. Not to mention, I know very many Shaolin (infamous Yegerfin included) that worship one of the other six gods, and probably wouldn't be eager to be told they have to now worship Zhakrin if they want to stay in the guild.

[aragog]

In some ways I agree with you, referring to some Zhakrin followers, but actually those misunderstood the concept of Zhakrin as well, which is not to overtake power but more to put a helping hand there, where it is needed or simply not to do so.

Balancing does not always mean to take up action for any side, it means also to refuse to act in some ways. Which would finally solve the problem of 'we have to team up with sathos and i don't like that'.
Or to say it with other words: It's not so much our actions which decide our fate, but more our decisions.

I thought of Zhakrin as this is the deity of neutrality and balance. That you or someone else dislikes the idea of becoming a zhakrin follower, well, that's ok, but to be honest, then every shaolin has to be godless, since the deity will influence the decisions and it will cause problems again like it happened when Zengo wanted to put every shaolin into the state of fanatic good.

When I read through this thread now, it unfortunately looks as if there would be no real solution for the Shaolin at the moment. I hope Delia's ideas will fill the guild with life again and put them into game again.

poAragog

[gojin]

I think my idea of a neutral guild is very different from most peoples so I will try to explain it better. The GUILD not the CHARS would be neutral. Meaning the GUILD would not take part in conflicts(ex-Switzerland) but its members can choose whatever side of a conflict, or no side at all.

First off, I don't consider it very good RP, or particularly tasteful, to see an Evrenite or Tanielite working side by side with a Sathonite or Lilithian. At least not if they're supposed to be faithful to the gods, because technically, befriending a follower of your god's arch enemy would be considered a major sin, I think.

You dont have to be buddy buddy with the member who worships the opposite deity. You just have to control yourself from killing(or getting killed by) him or her. I personally think it would make great RP to have to deal with someone of a very different opinion in the same position and organization as you. I wasnt around for the whole Zengo/Aragog thing but if chars cant respect the Guild over their own selfish wants then they dont belong in the ShaoLin. Pretty simple.

I also personally think that being a sworn enemy of someone and having to kill them on sight(without even a minute of conversation) because they worship an opposite deity dumbs down RP. It works for some guilds like Cruxies vs. Sathos but it shouldnt be this way for every follower of a deity, or is that my opinion alone? There should be guilds which dont take sides in the GOD WARS that seem to dominate Geas(which gets old imo). Other wise there are really only two guilds Crux vs Sathos and all the other guilds are just subordinate guilds which exist to have chars with different skills/specials.

Also, I don't see a good/evil Shaolin guild being tolerated. I don't see good guilds wanting to support a guild that helps protect and house enemies they swear to their gods to destroy, and I don't see good guilds hesitating to kill the evil char, either. In the other hand, if a good shao pissed Sathos or Order members off, I don't see them hesitating to punish the said shao, and I doubt threatening to cut off shao support if they hurt a shao would really stop them, either.

I would hope each inividual shao would be judged for his/her own actions and would take responsibility for them. If an evil shao is hunted by goodies that is his problem. If a good shao is hunted by evil guys, thats his problem. If a neutral shao is hunted then its a shao problem. The GUILD itself would not want the support or enemy status of any guild since it is a neutral guild. Hopefully(and this is the tricky part) other guilds would not want to involve the ShaoLin guild as whole for the actions of a single or two members. It should be the responsibility of the shao leadership to ensure the guild itself is not involved in trouble.



I hope this explains my opinion better... I am a horrible writer, sorry.

[Vargrahim]

I also personally think that being a sworn enemy of someone and having to kill them on sight(without even a minute of conversation) because they worship an opposite deity dumbs down RP. It works for some guilds like Cruxies vs. Sathos but it shouldnt be this way for every follower of a deity, or is that my opinion alone? There should be guilds which dont take sides in the GOD WARS that seem to dominate Geas(which gets old imo).

I agree to this.. still, that does not answer what role the Shao-Lin plays in this world. What do they come from and what are they trying to achieve? "Improving mind and body" alone turns the guild into a training retreat / tea-drinkers resort. I think the Shao-Lin was not created from any particular event in Geasian history. From this follows that the guild tries not to affect the content of the world in any way, which is a recipe for detoration.

Unfortunately I have no good answer to what reason/goal the Shao-Lin have. It makes them difficult to RP (as opposed to a guild with clear goals) since it is always hard to agree on or motivate what you do.

[Alamar]

Goals:
I think that perhaps the Shaolin should unify behind some goal that pertains to their guild as a whole. Let's say, for example, that the shaolin were charged with the duty of guarding a special orb that was an emblem of "balance" or the like. If this orb were stolen or its protectors attacked and killed maybe the shaolin could band together to go and reclaim it from whatever demon happened to be in possession of it. Even if that is a goal that is unattainable at present, perhaps just discussing it and working towards it would create unity within the guild and would help to determine policy in who it decides to make its allies.

allies:
The shaolin should then decide to ally with others who might assist them in this endeavor. If the shaolin are to be a Lawful Neutral guild (in loose terms, but I understand the idea) then it is natural that they will be allied with "good" guilds who also support law from time to time, but they should definitely not fall into one of the two camps that now divide Geas along god lines.

combat:
Aside from their politics, Shaolin should definitely devote themselves to the mastery of combat. I will not elaborate on that more... combat is fun for players and shaolin combat is more fun than most.

small-scale day to day goals:
I thought it might be a neat idea if there were shrines scattered throughout Forostar that were tombs or famous places linked to "the great masters of old" (and you'll have to make a few up as you go). Perhaps the shaolin could devote incense at these shrines (for some small ic benefit like a temporary wisdom boost or something) and occasionally make "pilgrimages" to visit them and pay their respects to the old masters' final resting places.

I will try to come up with some other things. I think the major way that players can revamp the shaolin is to bring their knowledge of old samurai movies, books, games, and utilize them in their roleplay. There are all kinds of personalities in those sorts of stories and not all have to fit one cliched sort of monk in order to be an interesting character with his own quirks.

[tessa]

I would hope each inividual shao would be judged for his/her own actions and would take responsibility for them. If an evil shao is hunted by goodies that is his problem. If a good shao is hunted by evil guys, thats his problem. If a neutral shao is hunted then its a shao problem. The GUILD itself would not want the support or enemy status of any guild since it is a neutral guild.

Which, in my opinion, destroys the Shaolin being a guild, and just makes them more of a training school that has no sense of community or devotion to each other. And, again, who wants to be a part of a guild that won't support them? I think it would encourage people to join to get what they want, and then leave to join a real guild that will actually support them.

Hopefully(and this is the tricky part) other guilds would not want to involve the ShaoLin guild as whole for the actions of a single or two members. It should be the responsibility of the shao leadership to ensure the guild itself is not involved in trouble.

It's been done before, countless times. Crusaders have threatened Shaolin as a whole because of things done by Stilgar or Aragog, Sathonites have threatened Shaolin as a whole (even attacked the guild and very nearly won) because of things done by Itenin or Zengo. I doubt this will ever change; if a member of a guild acts up, usually people expect the guild to do something about it. If they don't, then the guild as a whole is held responsible. That's just the way things are.

[Delmon]

Does neutral= no conflicts, or choosing which conflicts to involve themselves in?
No conflicts= training camp...

so...

To make the guild not be a training camp, someone's going to have to make a conflict for the Shoalin, or they, as a guild, will have to make a conflict with another "group."

That's my thought anyways...

[Vargrahim]

While the idea of an orb is a more concrete idea (you got the idea), I still see problems with it. For example, where does that orb come from? What part does it play in the world? Also the orb must be an integral part of Geas, so this requires some kind of events and reasons it came to be. And then there are practical problems such as, what if noone tries to take the orb in 5 years, what will the Shao-Lin members do meanwhile?

I think a better attempt at finding a goal is to start looking at the current history that is defined. The history we have is mostly about the arrival of the humans and how they "met" the other races. I would start by looking at this, trying to find some event that motivates a guild to be created. This is IMHO the best starting point..

[Delia]

Was writing a huge reply but I managed to screw things up and lost what I wrote...head all scrambled and forgot most of what I had to say.

I think the change should start from little things, like more communal rules and behaviour codes. If you act the same, chances are you think the same too. It would be nice to have somthing away from gods with the Shaos, like a philosophy or something which would make a clear distinction from religions. The problem is, defining such philosophy is a task unto itself and devotingly followed makes it seem more like a religion. At one point I imagined the Shaos to have a shrine dedicated to all gods and a resurrection system away from clerics, which may be too much(a more time consuming method involving gathering energies and possibly other monks meditating).

Finding out about the advanced Shao stuff against undead was a defining moment. Atleast it was a nudge to the "right" direction and defines relations towards other guilds. I can imagine no Sathonys cleric wanting to ally with a living being filled with lifepower capable of destroying their beloved creations. So that more or less does away part of the evil angle(though one could start dreaming about dark-chi and such commonly seen in Asian flicks).

In short, I have no clear and easy solutions. I've always seen the Shao-Lin as a good, but not fanatical guild, being more or less part of the society. Delia atleast tries to shake people loose from the hermit-monk stereotype, which does little good if applied to the whole guild in general. Biggest problem no though, is lack of members, which of just about every guild suffers from...but I invite people to come and give Shao's a chance, just don't nurture any Asian martial arts movie dreams, it doesn't quite work that way

edit

And oh, there is a goal/task for the Shao-Lin but it doesn't encourage shaos to go out much if things go well. The current situation encourages to seek strongest alliances possible, too bad the objective is quite unreachable due unavailability of good healers and strong heavily armoured warriors(which I hope is a temporary problem, good people quit enjoying the summer and come play!)

[anglachel]

In my oppion means 'neutral' not 'no conflicts'. These is more question of the choice of means.
To be 'lawfull' means that the charcter follows the laws and common rules. But this does not mean to follow every rule everythere. The first priority has the rules of the own community. As example 'assasins' are layfull evil in my oppion. They have a strong codex of honor (=lawful) and kill people for money (=evil)

A good characatar does not use evil means, even it is need to save the world. A neutral try to avoid it, but it is very necessary ...

I found some point to this (lawful neutral) in the web:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Re ... nment.html

1. Keep his word of honor.
2. Lie and cheat only if very necessary.
3. Never attack or harm an helpless foe.
4. Never harm an innocent.
5. Does not use torture unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. (Never for pleasure)
6. Never kill for pleasure.
7. Usually helps those in need.
8. Works in groups well, especially if it suits his needs.
9. Will quite possibly take dirty money, but will no steal to make money.
10. Never betrays a friend.
11. Has a high reguard for life and personal freedom.

I would add other point
12. Does not use poisons or spread diseases unless absolutely necessary.

These points describe how a Shao-Lin should act as 'lawful neutral' in my oppion.

[Sairina]

I would personally see the Shaolin as a home for the non-fanatical characters worshipping any of the neutral gods (I think that would be either Asral, Gwen or Zhakrin?). There has to be such a thing as a non-fanatical neutral person... maybe it might even balance the game a little more and take the center from the whole "good vs. evil"-thing.

They would not, then, have to stay out of any conflict at all, but they could not take sides against either Sathonites/Lilithians or Crusaders/Tanielites. And a character who does follow any of the good/evil gods shouldn't then be accepted into the guild, because he cannot truly follow it's concept of neutrality. This leaves a problem with existing Tanielite guild-members, I admit.

But this setup has potential for a real guild-background: the Shaolin might have been created after some period in history, when the fight of good guys versus evil guys has left the lands utterly destroyed and the civilization of Forostar on the brink of extinction - considering that all the religious neutral guilds (followers of Asral, mainly, but apparently also Zhakrinites without being a guild code-wise) take sides in those conflicts, and rather violently so, there is bound to have been a movement in the direction of a non-religious neutral society.

[ganandorf]

maybe this could be the thing.
people in earlier forums, i think, were saying how taniel (and evren), asral and sathonys (and lillith) seem to be the main gods in the game. all the guilds are mostly filled with their followers (eg. clerics, order, crus, thieves).
maybe the shaolin could the religious guild for followers of zhakrin and gwen. being as added before a religiously "neutral" guild.
though this may cut down the amount of people who are wishing to join as some may be taniels or asrals or whatnot. just a suggestion this may attract gods such as Zhakrin and Gwen to be more followed or whatnot.
and perhaps similarly to other guild bases, they could have shrines to gwen or zhakrin within their base (shao temple, ive never been so if thats already there sorry).


poGanon.

edit: pretty much just reitterating poSairina's idea. sorry didnt read last post before i made this because it just kinda popped into my head.

[Delia]

Just picking up thread relevant stuff from elsewhere...

I said regarding punishing/hunting people

The common shao problem is that when someone leaves and stays as a southerner. For example, someone leaves and joins the crusaders or somesuch for example. In all simplicity the monks find their hands tied when thinking of bravely going and punish in whatever ways imaginable those utterly loathed guildtraitors. Sure you could go and start a losing war or go on a phychotic neverending murdering spree but try belong in a lawful, law-abiding group of people at the same time...problematic.

Even without people joining any other guilds afterwards but living a life as a respectable citizen in Arborea or Elvandar the problem is still the same. Treat life as dirt and laws as toilet paper at best? Hmm... Sometimes I end up thinking Delia should order all those monk robes dyed black and some silvery skull ornaments added also. Atleast the problem would be solved Anyways, religious groups can easily justify slaughter, killing and ignoring "mortal" laws at convenience. Others need to choose outlawry and isolation is they seek to pursue any "guild-justice"(given most earthly power is in religious hands also...) Any thoughts? Or is it just kill-kill-kill all the way?

Sun replied

That seems like a difficult problem indeed. I do not know how to solve it in a good way. But in either case, a first step seems to me to talk to the guild leader of the guild that person joined. I think that every guild leader would have understanding. Perhaps they are more inclined to hang the guy out rather than protect him? I am not sure what I would do if I was LM of Crusaders..

If not, you should at least be able to reach some sort of agreement which says that using Shao-Lin skills should be punished by the Crusade itself if they are used. I am sure that is something they would agree on. When it comes to neutral going to evil, you should in a similiar fashion be able to get help from the good side to hunt them "extra hard". Although, they might not want to help if you are not "good enough". Maybe get some law support? There are options.

But yes, I see your difficulties. However, neutral guilds, shao-lin and asral clerics etc is probably those kind of guilds where it is extra important, since maybe the extreme good/evil have slightly more tendency to regulate it by themselves. But I'd say it is very important to focus on the problem for the shao-lin...

Herst replied

Well, maybe the Shaolin are the exception in this case
They do have very limited options.

From what I have seen though, the Shaolin handle it the best way they can. At least I can not think of another way that they could do it any better.

I have not seen much of it though, but from what I have seen it seems fitting for them.