Nobility

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tessa
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#1 Post by tessa » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:14 pm

Gojin and Tessa are the only two elves I know of that have a noble background.

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luminier
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#2 Post by luminier » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:30 am

throw ceinna in there too i think
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#3 Post by Naga » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:27 am

I can think of perhaps a half-dozen. It's a tired paradigm, and very cumbersome. Everyone claiming nobility is, by default, met with suspicion: nobility becomes pseudo-nobility. The burden of proof is on the claimant, who, having nothing to show but things that can be explained some other way, is summarily dismissed.

But what's the point of nobility? And what does it mean in the world of Geas, where the races intermingle without tension, intermarry, when anyone anywhere can aspire to positions of power, where fortunes are quickly gained and lost? The fluidity of station that is the norm here really defies the notion of a rigid social hierarchy, and whenever anyone does attempt to impose that sort of rigidity, even in personal roleplaying, they are alienated... and not entirely without justification.

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#4 Post by tessa » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:22 am

Nobility can bring about some RP. Okay, sure, maybe some people don't like the "me > you" aura nobility might give, but it beats everyone under the sun being commoners.

In my defence, though, Tessa is a noble by birth, only. She takes pride in being known (and raised) as a wild and free spirit. ;)

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#5 Post by amrat » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:19 am

I am writing this as a separate note so it is easier for wizzes to move this and perhaps a few others to a new thread about the point of nobility and social hierarchies in the game in general. It is mostly my reply to Naga's posts.
Naga wrote: The burden of proof is on the claimant, who, having nothing to show but things that can be explained some other way, is summarily dismissed.
This I consider extremely bad roleplay from those who start to question the claims without any real reason to do so. If you read 'help roleplay' it gives you instructions on how you should come up with a thing called background for your character. In the example given the character had no parents and was raised in an orphanage. In a similar manner, I could start to question this by by wanting to see the orphage in Arborea. Since there is none this person then becomes pseudo-orphan? He had normal parents in a normal house? Show me. I want to talk with them. The only backgrounds that can't be dismissed are "I just woke up in this inn with no memories" and the complete lack of. The only difference is that nobles tend to get questioned more, partly because they actually use their background as a real part of their roleplay.

As to "what is the point of nobility?" my answer is "to create restrictions and known models to oppose or play along with". People tend to think that those playing nobles do so in order to gain more power for their characters. The truth is, they don't really get any power and this is not a common reason to play one. What they, myself included, get instead are obligations and restrictions, and some kind of structure to base their RP on. Being a noble of the city gives you obligations to protect the city, your honour, other people etc. If you want to play a rebel, you need something to rebel against. If you want to break social etiquette (or follow it) there needs to be a social etiquette. Other players are not going to tell my char to dress better, so I must invent something that does. Or play a drifter who has no connections to anything, no obligations and no background, like so many do. (Sure, you can take something in between and have some of the structure and obligations, but that can be dismissed just the same).

As a different example, some have tried to play for example sages who would argue with the Taniel clergy about their theology. It fails because there is no Taniel theology. Individual @clerics have tried to create something, but those have been dismissed as their own inventions... and not entirely without justification.

The reason is the same and in a similar fashion leads to much poorer RP.

@Amrat

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#6 Post by Abharsair » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:43 am

amrat wrote:I am writing this as a separate note so it is easier for wizzes to move this and perhaps a few others to a new thread about the point of nobility and social hierarchies in the game in general. It is mostly my reply to Naga's posts.
Naga wrote: The burden of proof is on the claimant, who, having nothing to show but things that can be explained some other way, is summarily dismissed.
This I consider extremely bad roleplay from those who start to question the claims without any real reason to do so.
And that's actually the problem: the "no real reason to do so". Because frankly, there always is. If you take one of the definitions of "aristocracy", you'll get this:

A group or class considered superior to others.

Which in return means that those who do not claim to be a noble, are inferior. Now, considering that most people in this game do not want to play peasants (which would be actually a lovely change and not nearly as stereotypical as playing a noble), it isn't very surprising if they question the supposed superiority of someone else. And be it only a superiority by birth.

Which brings us to the next point: Can a noble be roleplayed convincingly? I say yes. Has it been done in the past? I don't think so.

In my opinion you can't just say "Gwenlanea is my royal cousin." and expect people to accept that. You have to convince them by behavior, attitude and whatever else a player can achieve and which would elevate him above the common class. I would still like to see a "noble" who gets himself fancy looking clothes, hates getting dirty, does actually buy himself a player house somewhere which he is willing to pay for, avoids mingling with the lower classes, let's other people fight for him, doesn't join illegal groups or steals horses, and so on. Someone who would play like that would be very likely accepted as a count, duke, whatever. But just walking around saying "my daddy is a prince of Lala-Land", talking a little bit stilted and then walking off to kill some goblins is neither convincing, nor can he be surprised if people don't take him serious. After all, someone who can't read or write will be laughed at if he calls himself a master scholar, and it's similar with just about every other claim, be it a warrior without fighting skills, or a noble with a peasant behavior.

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#7 Post by tessa » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:48 am

There's a catch. Since characters start with nothing when they're created, it's hard to play a noble, because real nobles already have their riches and so on. So the character has to work for it. Which isn't very noble-like.

Not that I'm complaining in any way, but that might explain why some noble wanna-bes aren't very noble-like in terms of wealth and possession. However, that doesn't mean it's impossible, because I do remember one particular elf (that I didn't mention in my list since he stopped playing some time ago), that came much closer to RPing a noble than most I've seen, and he didn't have more than personality and ettiquette to express it.

But, I'd say, that doesn't mean it's impossible for someone to ascend to nobility? I'm not quite sure how that'd work, but nobles have to come from somewhere, and I'd imagine enough fame and fortune could get just about anything for someone.

I am curious about this alledged thick number of noble wanna-be players, though. Do they generally not last very long? Or have I just not met the right people? Most characters I know have a common or nondescript background, and only a small handful that claim to be noble. Even less from that already small handful that actually try to RP as nobles, as opposed to RPing like commoners that just say they're noble.

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#8 Post by Abharsair » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:41 am

tessa wrote:There's a catch. Since characters start with nothing when they're created, it's hard to play a noble, because real nobles already have their riches and so on. So the character has to work for it. Which isn't very noble-like.
I didn't say it's easy, but it's still doable. For one thing, as you wrote later in your post, it is possible to put on an air of nobility just by etiquette and attitude. But additionally to that, you can make money in ways which don't involve the usual grind of killing one gremlin after another. You can hunt animals in the Elvandar forest with the bow for "sport". You can search herbs as "research". You can borrow money from someone because your assets are currently tied up in other businesses. Or, and that's the easiest part, you can walk around for a while incognito and only reveal your nobility to others after you experienced the "quaint adventures of the common peoples' life" first hand (assuming you do the proper roleplay). Those are only some of the options one would have, and I am sure there are more.

My point is that it can be done, even though it's difficult. I would love to see arrogant people riding around on horses (why walk like a commoner?) while wearing crimson, fur-lined velvet robes. People who hire their muscle and wouldn't talk to someone in anything but the third person if he isn't the Archbishop of Elvandar. People who actually buy a house along Elvandar's circle road and who behave like the aristocratic elite they want to be, with all its restrictions and rules. But unfortunately no one has ever done that, and that's why there hasn't been one single case of nobility which was widely accepted among the player base.

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#9 Post by Delmon » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:17 pm

Abharsair, I have to compliment you on your ideas of roleplaying a noble.
8)

It's very easy to play as a low life that gains a little through fighting. I compliment anyone who would take on the challenging nobility roleplaying described by Abharsair. Good luck. :wink:

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#10 Post by Vargrahim » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:20 am

Naga wrote:But what's the point of nobility? And what does it mean in the world of Geas, where the races intermingle without tension, intermarry, when anyone anywhere can aspire to positions of power, where fortunes are quickly gained and lost?
In my opinion, there is much point in playing nobility - it is the kind of RP I love to see, but it rarely happens (and like Abh said some of those "nobility" who "kill gremlins" simply can't be accepted). There have been some good attempts though, in certain periods of time I can think of at least three characters who did a good job.. but anyone who became their enemy always played the he-is-not-a-noble card.

I'm a huge fan of difference. It is what makes it interesting. Soulless, orc-killing machines just don't add to my enjoyment at all (and I don't enjoy playing that way myself either). With this said, Varg is not an attempt at playing a noble, his scale of difference is another.

The point of "nobility", and any other imbalance you can make your character, is fundamentally what RP is. You flesh out your character with a set of traits. Nobility just happen to be a very ambitious one. I would like to see less "intermingling" of races, less tshahark's being the intellectual authority on positions of power, and more class RP. I think it quite evidently exists in the history descriptions.

But for me, it does not have to be "nobility". The point is to have some spine and stand for something, and even in situations where it leaves you at a disadvantage, stick with those ideals.
Amrat wrote: As to "what is the point of nobility?" my answer is "to create restrictions and known models to oppose or play along with". People tend to think that those playing nobles do so in order to gain more power for their characters. The truth is, they don't really get any power and this is not a common reason to play one.
Also interesting note - you really don't get more space to move around in when you play a noble, you get less. In a "game" world, this usually mean you become weaker. This is because in some situations, you are forced to stick with your ideals rather than making the best move. For example, it isn't "game" correct to look down on tshaharks - because there are simply lots of powerful tshaharks who will cut you in half.

In practice, I think the best route to go about playing a nobility is to play with the principle to show others you are a noble, not tell them. Whether this is good or bad.. I'm not sure..
"The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil." - Albert Einstein

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